Talk:John L. Sullivan

Untitled

I'm getting lots of conflicting information. John L. Sullivan won a bout in Cincinnati under the Queensbury rules in 1885, being the first prize fight under those rules. Can someone clarify? JoeHenzi 08:44, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Most sources are not credible. The book "John L. Sullivan and His America" by Michale T. Isenberg should be used above most other authorities.

In particular, the Corbett fight was neither his first under the MQ rules nor was it the first fight with gloves. Boxers fought under different rules negotiated for each fight. I didn't go try to look up which title fight was the first under MQ rules or the first with gloves.

As far as championships, most of the titles in modern sources for this era are made-up. There were titles in that era like the police gazette belt, but there were not formal titles like heavyweight champion of the world. Sullivan became the de-facto heavyweight champion of the world by winning the championship from Paddy Ryan and then beating everyone else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.133.154.10 (talk • contribs)

Hero? Racist? Sources?

The article James J. Jeffries

contains the quote:

Previous Heavyweight Champion John L. Sullivan (the man who had erected the color bar in the heavyweight division when he refused to fight African American contenders) remarked during an interview with The New York Times that Jeffries' personal doctor was so amazed at Johnson's physical condition that he felt Jeffries could only win if Johnson had a lack of skill on the day.

Why isn't that color bar and his refusal to fight African American contenders mentioned in the article?

Shouldn't there be at least one reference next to that statement?

Why does this article say he was a hero? The article does not mention any heroic behaviour.

77.166.70.218 (talk) 08:05, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

 Done I removed "hero" from the intro and added that a citation was needed for the second part. For the second part of your query, you may edit and add or remove based on what you think as this page is not protected nor semi-protected. Thanks and happy editing--Go Phightins! (talk) 15:34, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Go Phightins! The article World Colored Heavyweight Championship says:

Though not sanctioned by any governing body, the colored heavyweight title was publicly recognized due to the color bar in pro boxing in the 19th and early 20th centuries, when white champions drew the color line and would not defend the title against a black man. In the heavyweight division, the color bar was adamantly defended by "The Boston Strong Boy", bare knuckle boxing champ John L. Sullivan, the first modern heavyweight champ, who had fought black fighters on his way up to the title but would not defend it against a black man.

Succeeding white heavyweight champs James Corbett and James J. Jeffries followed the same pattern. Since the white champs had fought black fighters as equals on their way up, the color bar undeniably was maintained due to racial prejudice. Since black boxers were being denied a shot at the world title solely due to their race, the general public gave credence to the colored heavyweight title.

I am not a native speaker, and I don't like boxing, but I noticed a couple of problems:

• The article John L. Sullivan doesn't mention the "color bar".
• Some boxing related articles link to color bar, which is currently a redirect to the television test pattern

Can someone please fix that?

Thanks in advance, 77.166.70.218 (talk) 00:53, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Hello, the color bar article does have a link to racial segregation at the top to help people find the correct page, I don't really think it needs to be "fixed" any further beyond this. Regards. ^Alex J _Fox^(Talk)_(Contribs) 19:44, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

This article reads like a racist vandalized it. In at least three places it's made glaringly clear that Sullivan was good, but would have undoubtedly lost had he dared enter the ring against a black opponent. How can anyone know this? This conjecture really detracts from the article! Sullivan may have been a racist scumbag, and he himself probably experienced bigotry based on his Irish heritage that was common at that time in America. One mention of either thing would be enough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.139.155.164 (talk) 17:33, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

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Tales of Wells Fargo

Looks like Charles Bronson as Sullivan in “The Hand That Shook the Hand” episode (1961), S5 E20 2600:1700:8281:410:E032:3DE:D31E:C67B (talk) 23:17, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

WBA GOLD

this is not considered a full world champion title!If the WBA Gold is now taken into account on Wikipedia then the WBC Silver, which has an equivalent status, and the WBC Franchise Champion, which should even be taken into account like the WBA Super. 84.152.86.116 (talk) 15:33, 18 January 2024 (UTC)