Talk:Cincinnati, Lebanon and Northern Railway

Questionable date?

In this sentence at the start of the second paragraph:

Construction contracts were signed in August 1876 and the groundbreaking, at Eden Park in Cincinnati, was on September 1, 1876. The railroad, severely undercapitalized, went into receivership on April 19, 1876, and was sold by the receiver on March 20, 1880.

Should the receivership date be in 1877, '78 or '79? The sentence reads like these events all occurred in the sequence presented, yet the date given for the receivership is after the groundbreaking. I don't have a reference handy to look up this information. slambo 19:12, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC) And another further down...

... forced the TC&St.L into receivership in August 1883. On March 6, 1883, the company, struggling to reorganize, had merged the Cincinnati Northern and the Spring Grove, Avondale, and Cincinnati Railway into the TC&St.L. On June 28, 1884, the Ohio part of the company was sold at auction.

Should the reorganization date be 1884? slambo 19:30, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)

Tunnel

This article has nothing at all about the tunnel or the longer never-completed tunnel in Cincinnati. There also seems to be more corporate history. There's no information on when Pennsy operations began; was it self-operated until the 1925 merger? --NE2 09:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to see what I can do to "rescue" this article. --NE2 06:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Maps

D&C, TC&StL, both northern branches, appears to show the old grade to Sharon, line to Waynesville

--NE2 22:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

History notes

This is from the ICC annual reports linked on User:NE2/systems.

• 1888: 37.65 owned, 38.85 operated
• 1890-92: 37.65 owned and operated
• 1893-95: 37.65 owned, 31.05 operated (-6.60 leased to Dayton, Lebanon and Cincinnati Railroad)
• 1897: 37.81 owned (+.16), 31.76 operated (+.71)
• 1898-1902: 37.81 owned, 31.76 operated, controlled by Pennsylvania Company
• 1903-06: 51.76 owned (+13.95), 45.71 operated (+13.95), controlled by Pennsylvania Company
• 1907: 51.80 owned (+.04), 45.75 operated (+.04), controlled by Pennsylvania Company
• 1908-09: 51.49 owned (-.31), 45.44 operated (-.31), controlled by Pennsylvania Company
• 1911: 51.49 owned, 45.44 operated, controlled by Pennsylvania Company, Class II
• 1913-14: 51.71 owned, 45.66 operated, controlled by Pennsylvania Company, Class II
• 1917: 76.15 owned and operated, controlled by Pennsylvania Company, Class II
• 1918-19: 76.17 owned and operated, controlled by Pennsylvania Company, Class I

DL&C

• 1893: 23.40 owned (new), 30.00 operated (new)
• 1895-1901: 16.40 owned, 23.00 operated
• 1902-06: 17.05 owned (+.65), 23.10 operated (+.10)
• 1907-09: 20.95 owned, 27.00 operated (new)
• 1911-13: 23.95 owned, 30.00 operated, Class III (empty operated column for 1913, but says it's an operating road)
• 1914: 30.00 owned and operated, Class III (probably an error; CL&N entry still says 6.60 leased)

M&C

• 1891: 10.00 owned, not operated
• 1892: 15.00 owned (+5.00), not operated
• 1893-95: 15.00 owned and operated
• 1897-99: 15.44 owned and operated
• 1901: 13.95 owned and operated (-.48)
• 1902: 13.95 owned and operated, wholly controlled by CL&N

--NE2 03:14, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Disposition of lines

1978 CR system map

• Cinci area to Brecon
• Middletown to Mason
• Hageman to Lebanon (light density)
• Centerville to Hempstead (light density)
• Hempstead to Clement
• Hempstead to Dayton (gap in the middle)

1979 CR Cincinnati Terminal Area map

• Blue Ash Secondary, near Oak Street to Brecon
• Court Street Secondary, Eggleston Avenue to near Eden Park Drive

1981 CR Columbus Division track charts

• DP&L Industrial Track, Dayton (0.5 to 3.5 near Patterson Road, out of service beyond 1.8)
• Unlabeled, Dayton (3.5) to Pasadena (5.1), owned by PC estate
• Kettering Running Track, Pasadena (5.1 near Dorothy Lane) to Hempstead (7.0)
• Hempstead Running Track, Hempstead (7.0) to Centerville (11.0 near Franklin Street), owned by PC estate
• Unlabeled, Centerville (11.0) to Lytle (16 near Lytle Ferry Road)
• Lebanon Secondary, Lebanon (25.5) to Hageman (31.4), owned by PC estate
• Mason Secondary, Hageman (31.4) to Mason (36.9)
• Out of service, Mason (36.9) to Brecon (39.8), owned by PC estate
• Blue Ash Secondary, Brecon (39.8) to Cincinnati (55.7, almost to Court Street)
• Middletown Secondary, Middletown (0.0 near Girard Avenue to 1.1 at the main line); Monroe (3.7 near Oxford State Road) to Hageman (12.0); PC estate in between with no track shown
• Out of service, Hageman (12.0) to Middletown Junction (14), owned by PC estate
• Clement Running Track, Clement (0.0) to Hempstead (5.1)

1982, 1984 CR Columbus Division track charts - don't show light density lines

• Blue Ash Industrial Track, Brecon (39.8) to Cincinnati (55.7, cut to 54.3 in 1984)
• Clement Industrial Track, Clement (0.0) to Hempstead (5.1)
• Dayton-NCR Industrial Track, Dayton (0.5 to 3.5, cut to 1.8 in 1984)
• Kettering Industrial Track, Pasadena (5.1) to Hempstead (7.0)
• Mason Industrial Track, Hageman (31.1) to Mason (36.9)
• Middletown Industrial Track, Middletown (0.0 to 1); Monroe (4) to Hageman (12.0)

1989-1999 CR Indianapolis Division track charts

• Blue Ash Industrial Track, McCullough Yard (49.5) to Avondale (54.3 near Oak Street) - abandoned between 1990 and 1992
• Clement Industrial Track, Clement (0) to Kettering (3.5 near Forrer Boulevard, cut to 3.2 between 1993 and 1996)
• DPL Industrial Track, Dayton (0.5 on Cinci Line to 1.8 at National Cash Register near Stewart Street, cut to 0.7 between 1990 and 1992)
• Middletown Industrial Track, Monroe (3.7 near Oxford State Road to 5.9 near Garver Road) - connected via Reeds Yard

Main line

• Dayton to NCR (majority abandoned in early 1990s; remainder to NS in 1998)
• NCR to Patterson Road (abandoned in 1982 per 1985 CR Dayton and vicinity map)
• Patterson Road to Pasadena (not taken in 1976)
• Pasadena to Hempstead (abandoned in late 1980s)
• Hempstead to Centerville (light density; abandoned ?)
• Centerville to Lytle (not taken in 1976)
• Lytle to Lebanon (abandoned in 1952)
• Lebanon to Hageman (light density; to IORY in 1985; city of Lebanon now owns the line)
• Hageman to Mason (to IORY in 1985)
• Mason to Brecon (not taken in 1976)
• Brecon to McCullough Yard (to IORY in 1986; to SORTA with IORY keeping an exclusive freight easement in 1997)
• McCullough Yard to Avondale (abandoned in early 1990s)
• Avondale to Cincinnati (abandoned in late 1980s)

Middletown Branch

• In Middletown (abandoned in late 1980s)
• Middletown to Monroe (not taken in 1976 but abandoned earlier through Armco plant)
• At Monroe (to NS in 1998)
• Monroe to Hageman (to IORY in 1985)
• Hageman to Middletown Junction (not taken in 1976)

Hempstead Branch

• Clement to Kettering (to NS in 1998)
• Kettering to Hempstead (abandoned in late 1980s)

—NE2 06:29, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified

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FA criteria

The article falls short of FA criteria, for example not citing a source for all information. If not addressed, it will go to featured article review. (t · c) buidhe 19:27, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

I am less concerned about the sourcing of information as outlined by buidhe above, although an expert should do a deep dive at the information and make sure it is verified by the sources. Rather, my main concern is that the majority of references are to one source, John W. Hauck. I searched through some databases and found additional sources that look promising; if someone is willing to research for this article I can help find sources. Z1720 (talk) 23:46, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Two books are cited. Is there a problem with either of them? RussNelson (talk) 21:37, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

@RussNelson: My concern is not with the sources, it is the overreliance on Hauck. Are there other sources that can be consulted? Z1720 (talk) 01:55, 7 October 2021 (UTC)