Talk:Zionist Occupation Government conspiracy theory

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There aren't any sources that actually prove this is an antisemitic conspiracy theory[edit]

The article cites the ADL, itself a powerful pro-Zionist organization. Not exactly an impartial judge. Wouldn't it be better to reference an unbiased study that's thoroughly examined the main claims of ZOG Theory? Why doesn't this Wikipedia article offer any counter-arguments as well? 2600:6C56:4AF0:9050:5F55:BD07:F342:CE4B (talk) 00:44, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Any citations of "Jewish" sources needs to be avoided, given that these are not independent of the subject - one of WP's key rules. However, if this were to be enforced, there would be no article! 182.239.148.125 (talk) 08:30, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong. See WP:BIASED. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:10, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While the ADL isn't a reliable source, your point fails to consider who the burden of proof lies with, one cannot disprove a conspiracy, only prove it. Thats like saying to the 911 conspiracies "Where are the sources disproving the government did it?". The burden of proof lies with the conspirators to prove their conspiracy, not other people to disprove it. ZOG will remain a conspiracy until there is any credible evidence for it. And there are ample sources for it being antisemitic mainly the people associated with its creation and it's underlying implications. 78.183.98.141 (talk) 10:43, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

where is the proof that it is antisemetic?

the burden of proof lies with the accuser.

I say I'm black, you say no you are not black. Who should give the proof here? Me obviously because I claimed something without proof, but I can just totally ignore your rebuttal by saying that it's a conspiracy theory. And now you have the burden of proof because "one cannot disprove a conspiracy, only prove it"?!! Mouhibay (talk) 08:21, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WIkipedia does not demand "proof". It demands verifiability. See WP:V. (Also, it is obvious that it is antisemitic.) --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:16, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ADL aside, there's no shortage of peer-reviewed literature calling ZOG an antisemitic and/or neo-nazi conspiracy theory (e.g. [1], [2]) _signed,Rosguill ^talk 12:53, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Rosguill I reverted the above edit earlier as it is not an edit request and is by a new editor (their 2nd edit in fact). They reverted me but both the edit and the revert were before I gave them an alert. On the other hand, there's the huge notice at the top of this talk page. Their only other edits are at Talk:Zionism but that was a legitimate and good edit request. Doug Weller talk 13:00, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I saw that and considered reinstating your edit Doug Weller. However, Mouhibay's comment here nominally steers clear of I/P as a topic, so I think this is better addressed by simply providing authoritative sources and putting the issue to bed. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 13:03, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fine with me. Hopefully the editor will read and abide by the alert if they do think of editing anything clearly in the area. Doug Weller talk 13:12, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will and thank you for reverting Mouhibay (talk) 10:53, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Zionist Entity" Subsection - Relevance?[edit]

Why does an article about a white supremacist conspiracy theory have a subsection about how the Arab world refers to the state of "Israel?" This article even states that the usage of the term "Zionist" by conspiracy theorists is unrelated to actual anti Zionist politics, yet this section, which is just an excerpt from an unrelated article, does not seem remotely related to the ZOG conspiracy theory. For what reason is it part of this article beyond usage of the term "Zionist?" This comes off as an attempt to falsely equate Arab anticolonialism to western white supremacy. I recommend this section be deleted. 2601:602:8B80:7520:1913:EFDD:1C6A:CC6D (talk) 18:30, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it is unrelated to the article topic and amounts to WP:COATRACK. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:48, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Improper synthesis and incorrect usage of source[edit]

The current page makes the completely unsourced claim that the "Zionism" mentioned in this conspiracy theory is not the same as Zionism, as in support for the state of Israel. I read the article which supposedly states this. Here is what it says:

"Conceptualizations of class and state converge in white supremacist discourse in the characterization of the United States government as the "Zionist Occupation Government" (ZOG). White supremacists view the government as a racial state which consistently privileges minority group members over whites (Omi, 1990). While this is certainly an important aspect of the "racialized" nature of the state, in these writings it is not the only way in which the state is seen as a racial entity. As indicated by the ubiquitous reference to the state as "ZOG" ("Zionist" is equated with "Jewish") within these publications, the state is depicted as inherently "Jewish," a racial identity within the discourse. The government, as well as the corporate elite, is supposedly "occupied" and controlled by Jews. This racial view of the state is also inherently gendered in that it is specifically Jewish men who are in the positions of power. This conflated vision of class and racial state is gendered in other ways as well."

The article merely asserts that, to proponents of the conspiracy theory, Zionism is equivalent to being Jewish. It does not state that the "Zionism" of the theory is different than supporting Israel, and does not assert that the anti-Zionism of people who believe in ZOG is a different anti-Zionism than opposing the existence of Israel.

The "Zionism" attacked by proponents of the ZOG theory is indeed support for the state of Israel. Proponents of ZOG believe that the state of Israel intends on destroying the white race and subverting Western countries, and this is adequately sourced by almost all writing on the conspiracy theory.

"If you surf the web, you may have encountered the claim that the Israeli spy agency Mossad warned 4,000 Jews who worked in the World Trade Centre to stay home on 11 September 2001; or that a handful of Jewish lobbyists control US foreign policy; or the world is run by the Zionist Occupation Government (ZOG)." https://newint.org/features/2004/10/01/conspiracism

"Postwar neo-Nazi conspiracy theories shifted to Israel as well, touting the United States as the “Zionist Occupation Government.” https://www.nydailynews.com/2022/01/20/why-conspiracy-theorists-so-often-aim-their-ire-at-jews/

"With the racist and anti-Semitic theology of Christian Identity as their justification, they blame the Jewish Antichrist, or the Zionist Occupation Government (ZOG), which rules in Washington, taking its orders from internationalist Jews in Israel, the United Nations, and the Fortune 500." Brasher, Brenda (2001), Encyclopedia of Fundamentalism, Routledge, p. 305

Simply put, people who believe in ZOG are also anti-Zionist in the classical sense of opposing the state of Israel. This isn't equating all anti-Zionists with the neo-nazi conspiracy theorists of ZOG, but rather recognizing that proponents of ZOG are anti-Zionist as well, for different reasons than anti-Zionists of communist, Islamist, Arab Nationalist, or left-wing Jewish origin. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 02:31, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]