Talk:Cú Chulainn

Old edits

Cúchulain is exclusively in Irish mythology; the story about the tales of Cu being lost is a tale, that may or may not be accurate. The central ms. is Lebor na hUidre, in English, the Book of the Dun Cow, largely because that version of the Tain is the oldest recension. There is no Book of the Dun Crow. Honest. I wouldn't kid you about that. DigitalMedievalist 01:08, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC) Lisa

Cúchulainn also shows up in the homogenous (same-originating - not sure if I used the word right) Gaelic mythology of Scotland.--172.175.236.253 17:20, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Are there any dates regarding when Cúchulainn was supposed to have lived?

Well there are Estimates. It was most likely some time before 1AD, as the Chariot was still a major Weapon in use, and because in the Stories Cúchulainn goes to Britain, but there is no mention of the Romans. So I would think it must be set before the Roman invasion of Britain at least, and perhaps much earlier, before the Roman Empire existed at all. I'd guess the Cúchulainn Legend could be set any time between say 500BC and 1AD. As to whether he actually ever really lived at all, well that's a different discussion. Hibernain

Internal evidence from the stories (his uncle Conchobar mac Nessa is claimed to have been a contemporary of Christ) put the stories in the early 1st century. A few notices in Irish Annals put them in the 1st century BC. Emain Macha was not a residential site post 95 BC (when the 40 metre structure was built and burnt down to create a ritual site). The culture of the stories is essentially Iron Age, but the Iron Age in Ireland continued pretty much until Christianity arrived in the 5th century. The lack of mention of the Romans isn't really a factor, as I don't think the Roman occupation of Britain is mentioned at all in Irish traditional history or mythology. All of which adds up to: your guess is as good as anybody's. --Nicknack009 15:46, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

True enough, however mentions of characters in relation to the birth of Christ does sound allot like Later Priestly interferences to me, which would make me fairly suspicious of such dates. I would still tend to think of it as pre 1AD, but I suppose that's just my opinion. Hibernain

There are conflicting accounts of who fathered Cuchulainn. In the Tain Lugh claims Cuchulainn as his son, but the The Birth of Cuchulainn says that Dechtine miscarried Lugh's child and that Cuchulainn was the son of Sualdam. Is there more definitive information on this? Celsiana

No, not really, and even manuscripts of the Tain contradict themselves. I think it's best to just talk about the conflicting stories.--Cuchullain 19:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge

Should Cúchullain redirect to this article? It seems very similar although it seems talks about him being Scottish more, but it's not as if you have seperate articles for Bacchus and Dionysus --86.130.159.44 16:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• yes it should. Merge tags added jnestorius^(talk) 17:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I don't know much about the Scottish traditions about him, but they are derivative of the (much older) Irish ones and as far as I know don't portray him significantly differently. I'd also prefer the spelling "Cú Chulainn" as it seems preferred by most current scholars writing on the subject. --Nicknack009 17:25, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and done the merge. There didn't seem to be anything in the article that came from Scottish folklore, anyway - it all seemed to come from summaries of the Irish stories. I've expanded the bit about Aífe and added a bit about folklore in the introduction. --Nicknack009 17:58, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Sétanta

There has been loads of edits done to change the part explaining the pronunciation of Cúchulainn’s name, Sétanta (pronounced as say-tan-ta). Some editors have put in different pronunciations like, shay-dan-ta, is there any clear definition of the pronunciation, I mean I always though it was se-tan-ta, but what do I know? --Hibernian 22:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It's "shay-dan-ta". S in Irish is always pronounced sh before i or e, and intervocalic t in Old Irish was pronounced d. --Nicknack009 23:03, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

"S in Irish is always pronounced sh before i or e"... Certainly not always in modern Irish, and not in this case. I have never heard "shay-dan-ta", nor have I seen the síneadh fada on the e before. I would be with Hibernian on this one Stevecull 14:20, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Well I'll admit that I know very little about the particular pronunciations in Irish, but what I do know is that I've never hear "Sétanta" being pronounced "shay-dan-ta", every time I've heard it pronounced it was either "Se-tan-ta" or "say-tan-ta". Think of that GAA guy Setanta Ó hAilpín, no-one has ever called him "shay-dan-ta Ó hAilpín". Now I don't know whether Se-tan-ta is the correct pronunciation, but I think it's the most widely used. --Hibernian 18:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard the word pronounced at all, but yes, certainly in modern Irish, s is always pronounced "sh" before i or e. I don't know of a single exception. —Angr 13:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps we should just not present a pronunciation? Just have "Sétanta" and let the reader pronounce it in whichever way they normally do. Besides it's currently not even in Wikipedia's standard way of presenting preconceptions, that is, by using IPA lettering. All I know is the most commonly used pronunciation (and the only one I've ever heard) is "Se-tan-ta". --Hibernian 16:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

What it comes down to is that there are two pronunciations: the historically accurate Old Irish one, and the one most commonly used by English speakers. The first was in all likelihood [ˈɕeːd̪ˠan̪ˠt̪ˠa] or something close to it, and the second is apparently [səˈtæntə] (if I read your transcription "Se-tan-ta" correctly). —Angr 16:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I've always heard "shay-tan-ta", but I don't think that there's a "standard" pronunciation for it.Celsiana 02:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I was just talking about this a few days ago with some friends of mine who speak Irish Fluently and they all agreed and assured me once again that it is pronounced Se-tan-ta (or some slight variations of that). So I've gone ahead and removed the shay-dan-ta pronunciation, I think we just shouldn't have any pronunciation at-all, it's unnecessary and contentious. --Hibernian 05:05, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

In my copy of Thomas Kinsella's translation of the Tain Bo Cuailnge I have a list of Kinsella's own 'sugested pronunciations' and he goes with shay-dan-da.... just throwing that out there. Fergus mac Róich 23:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I speak Irish and did my degree in it. In Old Irish it was most likely Shay-dan-da just as Kinsella suggests. I don't think that the modern pronuciation by English speakers is relevent to this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EoinBach (talk • contribs) 11:22, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Popular Culture

I note that the books of Gregory Frost, The Tain, and Remscela are not listed. Even more notable is the wonderful album by the Irish band Horslips, Tain. I find it hard to credit that these items were left out. xponentrob@comcast.net 98.197.36.62 03:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Final Fantasy XII

Hey, I don't know how relevant this is, but many pages like this have a "Cuchulainn in popular culture" type part, and I actually just looked this up because Final Fantasy 12 has an Esper named Cuchulainn and I was going crazy because I was *SURE* I knew that name from somewhere! Just thought I'd mention and see if anyone thought it would be appropriate.... Arianna 04:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Being a fan of the "Final Fantasy" games I was excited to hear that they may have put Cuchulain in the new game. It makes sense that they might put him in a game, afterall they pull alot of their "summons" (or espers as they are called in this particular game) from different world legends and mythologys. For example Odin, Leviathan, and Bahamut. I quickly looked this up because I thought that maybe if it was true I might acquire a picture of him in the game to put on the page. I quickly found out that this so called Cuchulain is actually spelled in the game Cuchulaim. And rather than being the great hero of legend is a giant green poisonous blob monster thing. So I can safely say that this deserves no mention in the article. And the only connection it has is a similarity in names. Ultratone85 06:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

As I'd mentioned before the "Esper" Cúchulainn, has absolutely nothing to do with the Irish mythical hero. I'd have no problem with the inclusion of this if the character was even remotely based on the myth (other than having the same name). I notice that somebody has added him back into the article page. Take a look at the Final Fantasy Wiki page for this esper if want to see for yourself just how unrelated it is, http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/C%C3%BAchulainn Ultratone85 20:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The number one pop culture reference I know of would be that he appears in Fate/stay night as Lancer. I'm not sure whether that merits a mention in this article, though. -- grm_wnr Esc 10:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I am new to this, so I am not sure of the formalities, but I just thought I would mention that the opening song of the popular movie "Boondock Saints" is entitled "The Blood of Cuchulainn".64.247.80.69 01:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

There's also Cu Chulainn in the Atlus series, Shin Megami Tensei (and spin-offs) series. He's a demon there, and in some of the games you can fight him, and the others he is mutated from Setanta. Does this game count for popular culture? Aoritsuki 07:18, 05 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to add that Cu Chulainn appears in Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3 as a Persona, whom you can create with a Triangle Fusion. He has long, straight black hair and is clad in white armour with black designs, and has a cape and loincloth, as well as his trademark lance. Mukino 01:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Just wanted to add the "Cú Chulainn the Awakened" Yu-Gi-Oh card. http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/C%C3%BA_Chulainn_the_Awakened and http://duellinks.gamea.co/c/hhd8i40h 143.129.70.61 (talk) 13:37, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Cuchulainstamp.jpg

Image:Cuchulainstamp.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 23:28, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Emer's only jealousy -- source?

What is the source for this section? I know the story only from Yeats' play and had thought that it was his own elaboration of the myth. It would be nice to get a cite, as the stories are so various. And if it's a modern literary invention it should be marked as such Dybryd 10:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Split the article

The trivia and pop culture section of the articles is now very long and probably needs to be placed into its own new article, called Cúchulainn in popular culture or something like that (in the same vein as many other similar articles). So does anyone want to create it? Opinions? --Hibernian 01:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Such an article would be immediately nominated for deletion. The fact is, there are a bunch of utterly trivial references there, and they need to go. Simply sues of the name or obvious, inconsequential references don't bear mentioning anywhere but in the article for the work. --Eyrian 02:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Cuchulainstamp.jpg

Image:Cuchulainstamp.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 05:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Ummm... It does too have a rationale for this article, Mr. Bot. Wrad 01:07, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Cúchulainn

What is with the audio pronunciation? Is it Ulster dialect?

Yes I have to agree - it's a long way from what we would say in Munster. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.153.207 (talk) 22:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's Ulster dialect - I think it's just wrong. It pronounces both 'u's as long, but only the first one should be. --Nicknack009 (talk) 06:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

In Irish a fada on a syllable makes it long. Only the first u contains a fada and so only the first u can be long. It is possible his name was originally spelt using the totally diferent letters and markings of old irish 6th to 10th centuries ad, primitive irish 4th to 6th centuries ad or even earlier versions of ogham or celtic. Ogham is a writing system that was one of the world's few writing systems which rose independently. Above it is written using the letters and markings of modern Irish and until somebody has researched the older languages we can only make the first u long. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Colmno3 (talk • contribs) 18:55, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I've added a new pronunciation which I think is more accurate, and distingushes the different 'u' sounds. --Nicknack009 (talk) 22:01, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

It is a bit odd IPA-wise, according to the sound [u:] should be [y] and [x] should be something like [ç], or are my ears confused? Evpok (talk) 00:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

ipa /Ku:χulənʲ/ the "ch" should be pronounced as an unpalatalized voiceless uvular fricative. This is how it would be pronounced in Old Irish. TheBookishOne (talk) 00:30, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Demi-God

Correct my memory but I thought Lugh or someone was cuchulainn's Dad. At least in tories I heard...JackorKnave (talk) 18:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe that is correct, Lugh is his father.

"Ancient Gaelic Literature"

Three points:

1. What does the phrase "ancient Gaelic literature" add that isn't already expressed in "Irish mythological" and "Ulster Cycle"? Nothing whatsoever. It's just verbiage.
2. Another encyclopedia is not a valid cite.
3. It's inaccurate anyway. The literature is not ancient, it's medieval.

The phrase is pointless, redundant and wrong. --Nicknack009 (talk) 12:20, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Nicknack is correct on all three points. And considering that the literature is not ancient, I doubt that Britannica says it is, so I'd imagine it's misinterpreting the source anyway.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:16, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, if an outsider researching the subject tried to gain an understanding and hence came across the Wiki article, nowhere within the article is there ANY mention of the original manuscripts being of Gaelic origin. A fact is a fact. Secondly regardless of 'Ancient' being used, despite the Ulster cycle having its roots from the 8th century, it does not make the inclusion of that one line "Gaelic literature'- meaningless, devoid, redundant, not valid etc etc. If the very fact is, that the legend of Cu Chulainn comes originally from Gaelic literature, what is the harm in including it within the article if it is not mentioned? especially in what is stated(the inserted 'From Gaelic literature') is ENTIRELY fact and indeed very important. Valid contributions such as the one I made is what Wikipedia is about, there is no point in policing an article without fully understanding the credentials of a valid contribution.Eireabu (talk) 17:04, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

The whole Ulster Cycle, and Irish mythology as well, are "(medieval) Gaelic literature". I don't see what the extra wording does for the article, readers can already click the links.--Cúchullain ^t/c 02:47, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Pop culture references

The section listing pop culture references to Cuchulainn is not appropriate here. See the TRIVIA guideline. An encyclopedia article is not a list of random information, such as Gaelic football teams that are named for Cuchulainn. Moreover, the sections are not sourced to reliable, third party sources and thus their importance to the subject is questionable.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:38, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Quite a few references contained within the pop culture section is very much appropiate here. The G.A.A refs for instance is not a simple piece of random information. As for the TRIVIA guideline that too underlines a reason for its inclusion rather than exclusion: QUOTE This guideline does not suggest removing trivia sections, or moving them to the talk page. If information is otherwise suitable, it is better that it be poorly presented than not presented at all. and QUOTE Trivia sections should not simply be removed from articles. It may be possible to integrate some items into the article text. Some facts may belong in existing sections, while others may warrant a new section. This is clearly stated.Eireabu (talk) 19:17, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

You're picking and choosing lines from the guideline. If the material I removed was "otherwise suitable", meaning important and well-sourced, then you'd have a case. But it is not. As such removal is warranted.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Please stop reverting. If you were providing reliable citations for these, and attempting to incorporate them into the article instead of leaving them as a list of trivia, you might have a case. But there's no point in including lots of unverified material of no clear importance.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:41, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Both of you please stop reverting!

I understand the annoyance people have with trivia sections, and to an extent I share it, but blanket deletion of whole sections isn't the way to deal with them. There's a difference between cultural influence and pop culture trivia, and Cú Chulainn has significant cultural influence, particularly in Ireland, which should be recognised. Some of the items you keep removing, Cuchulainn, are cited, and others have their own articles which have, or at least should have, cites there, so they're notable enough to be included here. The GAA stuff is all cited, and Setanta Sports is a significant broadcasting company, so I've written a prose paragraph on sporting references with its own subheading. At least some of the musical references should be salvageable (although a mention in one verse of a song is trivia and should be deleted) so I've commented them out and we can restore them on a case by case basis. I have a bias against computer game references so I'm not touching them, but some people take them very seriously, so I've commented them out as well, and they can be looked at in more detail. Anything that's just a mention of a name I've deleted. Hopefully now we can start discussing what deserves including and what doesn't. --Nicknack009 (talk) 22:25, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Nicknack, for ensuring that cooler heads prevail. My opinion is that trivia is just that - trivia, and embedded lists should never be used within an article. A bit of that material (that is, the material that is sourced to reliable, third party publications) may belong here, but a trivia list gives no context for my the information is important. The new prose sections you've included are vastly better than what was there before.--Cúchullain ^t/c 23:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Lancer reference

Hi.

I was wondering why a reference was kept to Cú Chulainn being in the likes of Guardians of the Galaxy, and being an archetype for Sláine - yet the reference to Lancer in the various Fate/Stay Night-related games, manga and anime has been omitted.

The character plays a significant role in said setting - and is a playable character in games such as Fate/Unlimited Codes - so why is he not listed? --Nerroth (talk) 03:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

There's a whole list of game references that have been commented out for the time being - they're still there if you click the edit button, they just can't be seen in the article - awaiting attention from someone who knows about the subject and can tell the notable references from the trivia. If you have such knowledge, go for it. --Nicknack009 (talk) 07:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay then, I'll see what I can do. (It's somewhat ironic that there seems to be more stuff available to do with Lancer in shops in Japan than there are to do with Cú Chulainn in your average Irish equivalent...) --Nerroth (talk) 18:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

You'll have to include a reliable source demonstrating that the reference is notable. Otherwise there's nothing to separate it from random trivia.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

How notable does the refrence need to be? I can link to sites where the character is featured (and playable, in the case of Unlimited Codes, Tiger Colosseum and Tiger Colosseum Upper) and refer to the articles already up on Wikipedia for Lancer - but what else would you want to see? --Nerroth (talk) 19:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

To fit the reliable sources guideline they'd need to be reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. So no fan pages, and no pages from the developer of the game. Additionally they should be in English but if you can find a reliable third-party source in Japanese that would be fine. You can't just link to other Wikipedia articles as sources but obviously you can use whatever reliable sources they use. The best thing would be some book or article on appearances of Cuchulainn in pop culture; with something like we could distinguish between which of the appearances are notable and which are not.--Cúchullain ^t/c 01:51, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

The Ulster crowd were losers

Can we say that? If I recall back in the day the evidence is that the Connacht lads under no less than a woman usually beat these northerners, men who made love to horses (ahem!). Dunlavin Green (talk) 00:41, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah? And how often does Medb actually win? ;) --Nicknack009 (talk) 12:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The Hound of Ulster

EoinBach (talk) 11:29, 27 November 2008 (UTC)The current version has "At the age of seventeen he defended Ulster single-handedly against the armies of queen Medb of Connacht in the epic Táin Bó Cúailnge ("the Cattle Raid of Cooley"); for this, he is often referred to as the "Hound of Ulster"." However, he was not, as far I can tell, referred to in that way until fairly recently (and possibly tinged by politics). Cú Uladh (hound of Ulster) is actually a personal name in Irish and wasn't used for Cúchulain. I think that linking it to the Táin is misleading as it seems to suggest that this name was in use in the ancient literature and it wasn't - it is a new and novel use. I don't object to it being included in the article but not where it presently is.

My change has been reverted without any rational or reason to it, other than a personal message asking why I removed it (despite the reasons given above). It is my intention to revert this back and remove the 'Hound of Ulster' as this has no historical basis to it. As I have said above I think it can be incorporated in a separate section, something along the lines of 'modern usage' etc but not in the introduction.

Hi, that's fair enough re modern usage and I've inserted three refs for this. But its usage is widespread and of sufficient importance to warrant its remaining in the introduction and not hidden away in the text. I've made clear that it's a common modern reference to Cuchullain. Regards, bigpad (talk) 10:01, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Bisexual?

Acording to LGBT themes in mythology, this character is bisexual? I havn't done any research yet, but tagged it as there is no mention here of any relationsips with the same sex.

Does anyone know where this comes from (even if disputed)?YobMod 13:15, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Some would interpret Cú Chulainn's relationship with Ferdiad as a sexual one, partly, I think, by analogue with Achilles and Patroclus - but also because there are a few passages that can be interpreted that way. For example, Cú Chulainn at one point says "We were loving friends. We were comrades in the wood. We were men who shared a bed. We would sleep a deep sleep after our weary fights in many strange lands. Together we would ride and range through every wood when we were taught by Scáthach." (O'Rahilly, Táin Bó Cúalnge from the Book of Leinster p. 221). I'm sure a reputable reference can be found for this interpretation of their friendship, and then it can be included in the article. --Nicknack009 (talk) 14:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I'll do some reading and see if i find any reliable sources, and add it to both articles if i do.YobMod 13:12, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Ah, found it in Conner, Randy P. (1998). Cassell's Encylopedia of Queer Myth, Symbol and Spirit. UK: Cassell. p. 116 "Cú Chulainn and er diadh". ISBN 0304704237. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help). Will write something at mythology page first, then see where it best fits here.YobMod 15:58, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh for gods sake, this is another completely ridiculous appeal to modern interpretations of homosexual behavior. The two were foster brothers not gay lovers. This revisionist history/literature bs needs to stop. This is why whenever "literary criticism" is mentioned, the annoyed general population roll their eyes and ask "Who's gay now?" 156.12.190.70 (talk) 22:10, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I think it is important to understand that ancient notions of sexuality are very different from modern ones, even though for example ancient greek men had sexual relationships together, the social significance of this was vastly different than today, in those times a man could have a man lover and also a wife and kids. It is also important to note a grey area, socrates for example seems very romantically loving of his friends, but to call this "homosexual" or "gay" is to not understand their culture. 2 good friends might kiss on the lips and cuddle, and this was just friendship to them, yet to us we would see it as a "gay relationship." Imagine also, if a man had a wife but kissed and cuddled with his best friend today we would call that "cheating" but then it would be just 2 dudes hanging out! Cuchulainn could not have been bisexual, or gay, or straight, these terms denote modern social constructions that define recent cultural developments. Plato praised homosexuality because he thought it made men better WARRIORS! Exactly the opposite of our army and today's opinion of homosexuality. We must always be aware that when we study history we must define things as they would have seen it rather than using colloquial terms and folk psychology to describe things. TheBookishOne (talk) 00:29, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Manx and Scottish folklore

A common mistake people make is describing the stories of Setanta as folklore. The majority of the stories were brought to us by translation ancient texts, and from prose/poetry that were learnt off by storytellers in the 17th Century.

The only Cú Chulainn related tales found in Scotland and Manx (before the modern era where books were published) from recitals of work that was learned from WRITTEN sources! Stories of Cú Chulainn cant always be described as a product of FOLKLORE, (in the sense the Fenian saga was, i.e passed down orally from generation to generation) but more as a literary figure. So i've put a citation needed mark, if anyone writes a section clarifying this, great!

All this is dealt with by Dáithí O hÓgáin in his epic work: "Myth,Legend and Romance - an Encyclopaedia of the Irish Folk Tradition (Ryan Publishing: London, 1990 / Prentice Hall: New York, 1991)" —Preceding unsigned comment added by CelticSeimi (talk • contribs) 18:50, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

The pangs of ulster

I've added an explanation of why the men of Ulster cannot fight: It's fundamental to the Tain bo cuailnge part of Cu Chulainn's story on a symbolic level: Cuchulainn is the only real man able to resist the armies lead by a woman. He's the only Ulster hero defending the bull on many fronts, including the symbolic reduction of all other ulster men to women - stripped of their manhood.

As suggested by user Cuchullain (sic.) I've made it shorter as I take the point it shouldn't be too verbose.

And neither should it be removed with the short comment "that level of detail isn't needed".

Jpgcwiki (talk) 16:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your work, Jpgcwiki, I hope you don't take offense to my reverts. I have removed your edits again for a few reasons. First and foremost, the explanation of the pangs of the Ulstermen comes from a separate tale, though it is frequently included in modern versions of the Tain. This alters readings of the role of gender issues significantly. The issue with the level of detail was mostly taken care of by your second edit, but still, it's a lot of information on a story that Cu Chulainn plays a fairly peripheral role in.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

User Cuchulainn: the amount of time you've spent on Wikipedia seems to have made you forget the prime mechanism: A communal knowledge resource based on discussion. I've made a contribution that I've judged useful, which you reverted with little comment. I then took your brief comment on board, and reverted a modified version, together which an explanation of why the point is important.

By instantly reverting all changes and removing my comments on the talk page with no discussion, I lose all interest in contributing. If your kind of behaviour spreads, then Wikipedia will become no more than a list of pages written by amateurs who are incapable of accepting input from others.

However: There's still hope, since this is the first time I've observed behaviour to this degree.

Try and remember: This is not your little empire, it's a collaborative and organically growing resource, which Napoleonic reflexes can only destroy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpgcwiki (talk • contribs) 13:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Jpgcwiki (talk) 13:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I hope that through my moving your comments to the proper place, that I have responded, and am not trying to be rude or assert authority over the page. Cheers,--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:45, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Cuchulainn, thanks for the response. In future

a) I should look down the talk page before jumping to conclusions b) You might consider using the discussion page before reverting changes too quickly.

I might have over-reacted, but I was not happy that a considered approach seemed met by a brick wall. I maintain that the pangs of Ulster are important in the detail that I gave them, for the reasons I gave. They are in the earliest two tain mss. and not "added at a later date". But I won't push the point.

Jpgcwiki (talk) 07:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm very sorry for the confusion. What I meant was, the Macha story is a separate tale from the Tain, and one that doesn't involve the subject of this article, Cu Chulainn. Any relevant interpretation of the gender roles requires reading the two stories together – which is how they are often presented in modern English translations, but is not the case in the Lebor na hUidre, for example. Since they don't involve Cu Chulainn, the Macha story is better dealt with at the Tain article.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Cú Chulainn

I think this section could use some minor work. The way the page is set up currently, there are only a few extremely limited cases of "Cultural depictions of Cú Chulainn", while the article used to list many more. These additional references have apparently been moved to the "Irish mythology in popular culture" section, but there is no mention of this in the "Cultural depictions" section, and furthermore, the "Irish mythology..." section is separate altogether and somewhat nonlinear due to the statue picture to the left. I believe this should be changed to either make clear the fact that there is another section showing the bulk of the "cultural depictions", or to just include the references in this article and link to "Irish mythology..." for those interested in cultural references to Irish mythological figures in general. Thoughts? Debollweevil (talk) 17:45, 27 November 2009 (UTC) The only thing wrong with the article is it's failure to mention the possible Christian influence on the transcriptions written on Cú Chulainn, this is especially strange when the book sighted in the third footnote does.

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Conchulainn

I've removed User:the Man in Question's edit that Cú Chulainn is "also called Conchulainn", even though it's cited, because it's a misunderstanding of the cite. Conchulainn is the genitive case of Cúchulainn, and appears in titles like Siaburcharpat Conculaind, meaning "the phantom chariot of Cúchulainn". It's the equivalent of starting an article "Joe Smith, also known as Joe Smith's". --Nicknack009 (talk) 07:30, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

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Conchulainn = Colmcille

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A few more reversions

I've removed (a) the supposed Middle Irish spelling "Cú Culaind" - you will occasionally find it spelled like that, but "Cú Chulaind" is more usual as Old and Middle Irish usually marked lentition of the letter c, and "Cú Chulainn" is also a Middle Irish spelling; (b) the video game references, which belong in Irish mythology in popular culture; and (c) the proposed Michael Fassbender film, because as yet you couldn't even call it "in development", let alone "in production" - the number of films at this stage that actually get made is tiny. Wait til there's more to report than an actor and a screenwriter expressing an aspiration to make a film. --Nicknack009 (talk) 12:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

==

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Conchulainn = Colmcille

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==

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Transgender discussion

Came across this discussion and thought id share it. Im not familiar with the tale of Cu Chulainn but maybe it's worth looking at. Finnlongman's dissertation isnt published yet but should be soon and I think itll be worth looking at. As I said Im not familiar with this tale but I feel like the subject of queerness in historical settings and stories is extremely ignored (intentionally or not). Cisgender heterosexual men raised in societies that are not open about this subject have for the most part been the scholars and historians analysing these stories and its their interpretations we've read. So I think its important to listen to the younger more open minded generation. They have fresh perspectives and can see things which may have been missed before. 71.63.156.179 (talk) 21:06, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Just thought I'd provide an update (though I'm not the original user who brought this up) to state that said article by Finn Longman has been published now, as ‘“What manner of man is this Hound?”: Gender, Humanity and the Transgressive Figure of Cú Chulainn' in Proceedings of the Association of Celtic Students of Ireland and Britain VIII and IX (2023). It is also available on their website, at https://finnlongman.com/research/. AspieSamKing (talk) 23:18, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

References

Possibly lovers with Ferdiad is an established and common theory, stop edit-warring

This is not a new or obscure theory. Though, obviously, some are not pleased with it. The theory is certainly common enough that it deserves to be included. Stop the edit-warring. I would advise additional sourcing be added, because plenty of scholars have certainly mentioned it. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:33, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Claim his name was Sétanta; wasn’t it Séadanta?

Sétanta doesn’t sound right. Wasn’t he Séadanta with or without a fada. Frenchmalawi (talk) 08:53, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Séadanta looks like an attempt to update Sétanta to modern Irish spelling. The stories were written on Old and Middle Irish, and translations and scholarship generally follow the Old/Middle Irish spellings. --Nicknack009 (talk) 09:51, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Nicknack009, why did you mention translations? Obviously I haven’t asked about translations. Sétanta isn’t a translation. There is no fada in English language. Are you saying that there is an old written document in Irish language where ‘Sétanta’ is used? Can you identify that document? Frenchmalawi (talk) 14:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes. That's the spelling used in Lebor na hUidre and the Book of Leinster, the oldest and most important relevant manuscripts. --Nicknack009 (talk) 16:50, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Esoteric Birth Story

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like the birth section is just written really strangely? It's very clunky and hard to parse through, and a lot of details seem to have almost no meaning or correlation-- the two colts born to the mare are never explained as birth gifts to Sétanta, and it generally reads like a stream-of-consciousness rendition of his birth.

I wouldn't really know where to start editing it, or if other people deem it worthy of being edited. It may just be me too-- I'm willing to acknowledge I'm reading things pretty poorly, but this section just feels overly dense IMO.

The articles on Deichtine and Súaltam already have some better, albeit more brief versions of Cú Chulainn's birth story, that feel way less dense.

FenrirSkin (talk) 18:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC)