Talk:Cinque Ports

List of Lord Wardens

[1] has a fullish list of lord wardens, to be transferred

81.131.85.16 00:23 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

"Cinque Port" or "Cinque Ports"?

Why is the title of this article Cinque Port instead of Cinque Ports? RickK 02:01 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Translation of rights

Could we have a translation of the rights listed in the quotation, please? - Montréalais

"Antient" or "ancient"?

Is there a reason to use antient vs ancient? 96.20.164.139 (talk)

If the map included in the article is a valid citation then the word is 'Ancient'. Unless a valid citation can be provided, it should be changed to 'ancient' 109.153.242.10 (talk) 17:54, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Rye Town Council [2] seems to always use the spelling "antient", while Winchelsea seems to use "antient" a lot in "official" publications, [3] [4] although both spellings are widely used. The Cinque Ports Confederation's website uses only "antient" [5] [6] Lozleader (talk) 18:32, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Maybe it said that in 2011, but http://cinqueports.org/cinque-port-towns/ now uses ancient. Kevin McE (talk) 18:26, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Redundant material

Exemption from taxation and the right to levy tolls; the authority to detain and execute felons both inside and outside the Ports' jurisdiction; power to claim wreckage off the shore or goods thrown overboard; these were privileges granted to the Cinque ports, along with the right of assembly as a Guild, which gave the confederation the authority to act in such matters.

This is redundent, bring listed above in the translation, and awkwardly worded here to boot. Kd5mdk 13:01, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I'll get it out right away. Renke 17:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Piracy

Another thing puzzles me a bit: the charter is said to lead to piracy; yet it seems a pretty common city rights' charter to me. Do all city charters lead to piracy? Renke 17:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation

The pronunciation is as "sank" not "sink" Cokehabit (talk) 03:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you must be thinking of the modern French number. The term "Cinque Ports" has been well absorbed into English over many centuries (starting of course from Norman French, not modern French), and is indeed pronounced "sink". It's a relatively minor change from the French: "Herstmonceaux" is pronounced "Hersmanzoo", and "Beaulieu" is pronounced "Bewly".--Richard New Forest (talk) 20:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi. You reverted my attempt at using our IPA conventions, saying there is no diphthong. Then when I made the clarification that it is not pronounced as "ports", you reverted that, saying it is. Well, "ports" has a diphthong, at least according to the OED. I guess the question is, other than the t for k, does it rhyme with "porks" or with "forks"? Like "forty", or like "fourteen"?

As for it not being rhotic, I assume that is a matter of dialect, and we don't normally use dialectical pronunciations unless they're specifically marked as local. I presume that rhotic speakers do have an /r/ in this name. kwami (talk) 01:16, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Does it rhyme with "porks" or "forks"... To me these and "hawks" all rhyme exactly, and there is no difference between "forty" and "fourteen", so you tell me... The alternative would be to give it in square brackets as a non-rhotic dialect pronunciation. Carrying out a thought-experiment, if I was explaining the "proper" pronunciation to a Scot or a Canadian, would I correct their attempts to non-rhotic? The answer is that I would not – so on consideration, I think you're right, and there is no harm in putting the /r/ in. Can't see how it can be a diphthong though – what exactly does the OED give? Richard New Forest (talk) 22:29, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, the idea is that a Canadian or Scot reading this article should understand how to pronounce it even if they have not mastered RP. (Well, maybe not a Scot. We don't distinguish fur fir fern, which a Scot does but very few dictionaries cover.)

The transcription is pretty much a rhotic variant of RP, except that it maintains the horse-hoarse distinction that most RP speakers have merged, though it's maintained in other parts of England and elsewhere. The OED, however, does keep the distinction, so we have a good source for it: fork is /fɔːk/, whereas pork is /pɔək/. (That's why pork is listed as unrhymable in rhyme tables: no other word in English ends in a stressed /ɔək/.) (And the OED is of course non-rhotic; we compensate for that but otherwise generally leave the vowels alone.) Similarly, fourteen is /fɔətiːn/ while forty is /fɔːtɪ/, thus the difference in spelling. kwami (talk) 22:57, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I've checked the OED, and it does give something like that pronunciation for "port", "pork" etc, while giving a simpler vowel for "porpoise" etc. However, that version is definitely now obsolete in standard British English, and I don't think I've ever heard it. My copy of the Concise Oxford English Dictionary gives the same monophthong vowel for all these words – and that's quite an old edition (1976). I'm not even sure if strongly rhotic-accented British speakers still use the diphthong – I might have missed it in such accents and I'll have to listen out for it. The similar traditional diphthong of "poor" was quite common when I was young, but is also disappearing, somewhat slower, and a very few very RP speakers do still use it. The standard British accent has changed a lot in the last few decades – even the Queen's speech has some Estuary English features now... Richard New Forest (talk) 10:51, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

That's one of the few vowel distinctions we make that's not found in RP any longer. Maybe the only one. kwami (talk) 18:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Why "cinq" not "cinque"?

Why is it Cinque not Cinq? Was this the French spelling at the time? 81.148.252.177 (talk) 09:52, 16 August 2010 (UTC) Lisa Payne, Coventry, UK

Presumably intermediate between Latin quinque and modern Franch cinq. Anglo-Norman vs. Parisian might also perhaps have been relevant... AnonMoos (talk) 10:00, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Wictionary suggests that it is from Middle English cink, from Middle French cinc, from Latin quinque, influenced by Italian cinque. Doesn't give a ref, but the OED says much the same thing. Richard New Forest (talk) 20:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Listing of 5 ports as bullet points

I believe this format to be appropriate because the first thing any reader wants to know is "What are they?". It is frustrating to have to hunt about for the answer to such an obvious question. They have recently been promoted to the intro. for this reason, but they should also be in bold because of their central import to the article. If it is not accepted that they should be bullet points, this appears inconsistent with the Antient Towns & Limbs which are so listed, and would appear to give the latter prominence. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 16:47, 30 January 2011 (UTC))

My feeling was that the bullet points broke up the lead section too much, but I don't think it matters too much. Other things:

• We normally use IPA for pronunciation guides, though we can use others (such as "sink") in addition. It would read '/ˌsɪŋk/; "sink"'
• I think "never" is rather prescriptive. We should be describing the normal pronunciation, not telling people what to do. "Not normally" or just "not" covers it perfectly well, and is gentler on any poor souls who may have been saying it wrong.
• I think the pronunciation and origin would be better in its own sentence, to avoid breaking up the definition too much. We could put the Norman French origin here too (Norman French does need linking).
• The definition "is a series of towns" makes it sound as if it's a name for a series that already exists for some other reason, like "the Alps is a range of mountains". How about defining it as what it is: "The Confederation of Cinque Ports is a confederation of...". The whole formal title ought to be in bold.

Richard New Forest (talk) 21:55, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Any response...? Richard New Forest (talk) 20:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Saxons and Danes

The article mentions Saxon Authority ('Decline'), and that Danish raids may have been (or may mistakenly been thought to have been) responsible for the decline in importance of the cinque ports. But the article elsewhere suggests that the authority of the ports wasn't established until 1155 - long after the Saxons had any power to delegate. Have I misunderstood, or does the history section need correcting/clarifying? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.36.142 (talk) 19:16, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Seaford

The town of Seaford in E. Sussex has the words "CINQUE PORT" emblazoned on all the signs at the borders of the town, yet isn't mentioned here. Explanation? 109.153.242.10 (talk) 17:52, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Like Brightlingsea (which has similar signposting, which surprised me today and made me come to this page), and many others, it is a former limb, listed here as a connected town. (http://cinqueports.org/history/limbs/) Kevin McE (talk) 18:50, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

File:Ship of the cinque ports.JPG Nominated for Deletion

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Limbs

The website http://www.cinqueports.org/ suggests that apart from the 7 main ports, there were some 23 "limbs" of which 7 had charters and were referred to as "corporate members". These 7 are listed (together with Brightlingsea, which was a limb but not a Corporate Member) as the _only_ limbs. That website does purport to be the official site for the Confederation of Cinque Ports, so please review the article or explain why it should remain as is. 188.29.117.112 (talk) 18:34, 12 August 2012 (UTC)TallPaul.

Cinque Ports in Ireland

Youghal was made a "petty limb of the Cinque Ports of/in Ireland" in 1462. As detailed in Talk:Cinque Ports in Ireland, I don't know what that means. Any input would be appreciated. jnestorius^(talk) 09:51, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Rye

Can someone add when Rye changed status from "Antient town" to full Cinque port. I presume sometime after great storm of 1297. Also did New Romney then lose its status or change to Limb or Antient Town i.e. are there now 6 Cinque Ports — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.31.202.145 (talk) 15:01, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

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Parliamentary status

Have found source dating this to 1322: corroborative evidence from elsewhere would not go amiss, however. Jacobisq (talk) 09:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC)