Talk:High jump

All-time lists need to be cleaned up

There are several problems with the all-time lists, especially the co-minging of indoor marks with the outdoor marks. First, these are two separate events, indoor and outdoor, and it is Original Research to mix the two - World Athletics never co-mingles indoor and outdoor marks on their lists. There seems to be a conflation of the rule that allows RECORDS set indoors to also stand as overall World (i.e. "outdoor") records. Yes, but this does not mean "IAAF acceptance of indoor events as equivalent with outdoor events."

As far as I can tell the high jump is not necessarily an event that automatically accepts overall world records for marks set indoors, in contrast to the pole vault. Case in point: one of the very marks listed WAS considered a world record, Carlo Thranhardt's 2.42 set indoors in 1988, tying Patrick Sjoberg's record set outdoors the year before. But it was rescinded because of the assistance from the boards used in the run-ups. The point is, unless we can find some source that explicitly says marks set indoors in the high jump can automatically stand as overall records, that note has to go. Unless we know that all the listed marks were in fact done without boards. At the very least, Thranhardt has to go. But far better to eliminate ALL indoor marks.

In short, these top-25 lists have to be tossed out, made all outdoors, as many of the marks set indoors would likely not qualify for a world record if the run-ups were on boards, as in Thranhradt's case.

I further propose to dispense with the unwieldy lists with other performances not on the 25 athlete list, instead putting the top 25 performances in the the top 25 athlete lists.Canada Jack (talk) 16:16, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Here is a table I've drawn up which eliminates the indoor marks - which are often ineligible for World Record consideration and hence do not belong on the all-time list. And I've combined the all-time performers AND all-time performances, keeping each 25-deep (though in this event, obviously, there are many equal marks).

I propose we do this same approach for all events, as the current approach where lists of "also" marks are look like the fine print of some legal document and besides being incomprehensible, are a complete mess. Take a look at the pole vault page - there are something like 100 extra marks under the top 25 list.

All-time top 25 athletes, top 25 jumps, men's high jump

Ath.#	Perf.#	Mark	Athlete	Nationality	Date	Place	Ref
1	1	2.45 m (8 ft 1⁄4 in)	Javier Sotomayor	Cuba	27 JUL 1993	Salamanca
	2	2.44 m (8 ft 0 in)	Sotomayor #2		29 JUL 1989	San Juan
	3	2.43 m (7 ft 11+1⁄2 in)	Sotomayor #3		08 SEP 1988	Salamanca
2	3		Mutaz Essa Barshim	Qatar	05 SEP 2014	Brussels
3	5	2.42 m (7 ft 11+1⁄4 in)	Patrik Sjöberg	Sweden	30 JUN 1987	Stockholm
	5		Sotomayor #3		05 JUN 1994	Seville
3	5		Bohdan Bondarenko	Ukraine	14 JUN 2014	New York City
	5		Barshim #2		14 JUN 2014	New York City
5	9	2.41 m (7 ft 10+3⁄4 in)	Igor Paklin	Soviet Union	04 SEP 1985	Kobe
	9		Sotomayor #4		25 JUN 1994	Havana
	9		Sotomator #5		15 JUL 1994	London
	9		Bondarenko #2		04 JUL 2013	Lausanne
	9		Bondarenko #3		15 AUG 2013	Moscow
	9		Barshim #3		05 JUN 2014	Rome
	9		Barshim #4		22 AUG 2014	Eberstadt
	9		Barshim #5		30 MAY 2015	Eugene
6	17	2.40 m (7 ft 10+1⁄4 in)	Rudolf Povarnitsyn	Soviet Union	11 AUG 1985	Donetsk
	17		Sotomayor #6		12 MAR 1989	Havana
	17		Sjoberg #2		05 AUG 1989	Brussels
	17		Sotomayor #7		13 AUG 1989	Bogota
6	17		Sorin Matei	Romania	20 JUN 1990	Bratislava
	17		Sotomayor #8		19 JUL 1991	Paris
6	17		Charles Austin	USA	07 AUG 1991	Zurich
	17		Sotomayor #9		22 MAY 1993	Havana
	17		Sotomayor #10		23 JUL 1993	London
	17		Sotomayor #11		22 AUG 1993	Stuttgart
	17		Sotomayor #12		10 JUL 1994	Eberstadt
	17		Sotomayor #13		18 JUL 1994	Nice
	17		Sotomayor #14		29 JUL 1994	St. Petersburg
	17		Sotomayor #15		11 SEP 1994	London
	17		Sotomayor #16		25 MAR 1995	Mar del Plata
6	17		Vyacheslav Voronin	Russia	05 AUG 2000	London
	17		Barshim #6		01 JUN 2013	Eugene
6	17		Derek Drouin	Canada	25 APR 2014	Des Moines
	17		Bondarenko #4		11 MAY 2014	Tokyo
	17		Bondarenko #5		03 JUL 2014	Lausanne
6	17		Andriy Protsenko	Ukraine	03 JUL 2014	Lausanne
	17		Bondarenko #6		18 JUL 2014	Monaco
	17		Bondarenko #7		05 SEP 2014	Brussels
	17		Barshim #7		11 JUN 2016	Opole
	17		Barshim #8		20 AUG 2017	Birmingham
	17		Barshim #9		27 AUG 2017	Eberstadt
	17		Barshim #10		04 MAY 2018	Doha
	17		Barshim #11		02 JUL 2018	Székesfehérvár
6	17		Danil Lysenko	ANA	20 JUL 2018	Monaco
13		2.39 m (7 ft 10 in)	Zhu Jianhua	China	10 JUN 1984	Eberstadt
13			Hollis Conway	USA	30 JUL 1989	Norman
13			Ivan Ukhov	Russia	05 JUL 2012	Cheboksary
13			Gianmarco Tamberi	Italy	15 JUL 2016	Monaco
17		2.38 m (7 ft 9+1⁄2 in)	Hennadiy Avdyeyenko	Soviet Union	06 SEP 1987	Rome
17			Sergey Malchenko	Soviet Union	04 SEP 1988	Banská Bystrica
17			Dragutin Topić	Yugoslavia	01 AUG 1993	Belgrade
17			Troy Kemp	Bahamas	12 JUL 1995	Nice
17			Artur Partyka	Poland	18 AUG 1996	Eberstadt
17			Jacques Freitag	South Africa	05 MAR 2005	Oudtshoorn
17			Andriy Sokolovskyy	Ukraine	08 JUL 2005	Rome
17			Andrey Silnov	Russia	25 JUL 2008	London
17			Zhang Guowei|	China	30 MAY 2015	Eugene

This is here for feedback, I will replace the current men's lists with this or a revised version of this list in a few days, and we can start working on doing the same for the women's list and for other pages. Canada Jack (talk) 20:31, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

I think this is a very good idea, though we should consider editing a table for indoor performances too.87.78.83.203 (talk) 12:22, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Purpose to delete the absolute top 25 when there is an indoor ranking.2A0A:A546:61B0:0:C5BD:AEB1:4903:99A7 (talk) 12:49, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Indoor performances are not necessarily on par with outdoor performances, despite some unsourced claims to the contrary. World Athletics maintains separate all-time lists, these marks are not combined. The one time an indoor mark was considered for ratification was Thranhardt's 2.42 in 1988 which tied the outdoor mark. It was actually ratified as an all-around world record. But it was withdrawn in 1991 for the same reason many indoor performances likely could not be ratified - the temporary boards used in many indoor facilities give assistance.

I don't see why there can't be a separate all time indoor list - World Athletics maintains one as well. Canada Jack (talk) 15:22, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I just removed all the mixed marks - to repeat, Indoor marks are a SEPARATE event - many indoor marks would not qualify for outdoor records, so it is ORIGINAL RESEARCH to make a combined list. World Athletics maintains separate lists, so should we. As I previously stated, Thrahardt's ineligible 2.42 is a classic example. Someone is confusing the 2000 rule change about allowing marks set indoors as all-around "outdoor" records as some blanket approval - no, individual marks must be made under the set outdoor conditions. So many running records set indoors don't qualify as most indoor tracks are not 400 m. And in the high jump, it depends in the surface used - temporary boarding would render some marks ineligible, which is what happened with Thrahdardt's 2.42.

Please explain why indoor national records are ratified as absolute records, I do not see your argument.2A0A:A546:61B0:0:B120:88C3:9E49:B06D (talk) 18:33, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

They can't be. And it's amazing to me that this nonsense has been allowed to go on for so long. The page is a complete mess with editors running rampant with OR deciding whatever they consider to be "records." Here are some glaring examples: According to the page here as it stands, the German national record for men is 2.42 by Carlo Thranhradt, the American record is 2.40 held jointly by Hollis Conway and Charles Austin. The Thranhardt and Conway's marks, however, were set indoors. So, what does World Athletics consider to be the records for those countries as of 2009? The German men's record is indeed held by Carlo Thranhradt... but its the 2.37 he did in 1984, not the indoor mark he set in 1988 as per this page! The United States? One person holds the record, not two, and it's Charles Austin with his 2.40 set in 1991. It seems that wikiepdia has granted itself the discretion to declare national records! Because World Athletics does not grant Conway a national record!

Though the listing is from 2009 and needs updating, the Russian record was and should be 2.40, not 2.42. The Czech record is 2.36, jointly held by Jan Zvara and Jaroslav Baba, but wikipedia declares it to be 2.37, held by Baba, and set indoors.

This is the link to the IAAF/World Athletics handbook from 2009 which lists national records in men's high jump from page 503. https://web.archive.org/web/20110629134819/http://www.iaaf.org/mm/document/competitions/competition/05/15/63/20090706014834_httppostedfile_p345-688_11303.pdf And, just to be clear, the 2000 rule about indoor records was in effect by then.

Your argument doesn't work, the IAAF listed outdoor records on the occasion of Berlin 2009 because it had been an outdoor event. When you search for Carlo Thränhardt in their database [1] both marks 2.37 and 2.42 are signed with NR.89.0.167.174 (talk) 09:48, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

To be absolutely clear, the "2000 rule" simply means that the presence of a roof - in itself - does not disqualify a mark from record consideration. But that does NOT mean that marks set indoors are exempt from the normal criteria in setting records - including standard 400m track, standard surfaces for field events, etc. As previously noted, that 2.42 Thranhardt mark was actually considered a world record... until the surface of the sunup was found to be non-standard, and the record was rescinded in 1991. Canada Jack (talk) 20:58, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

In 2000, IAAF rule 260.18a (formerly 260.6a) was amended, so that "world records" (as opposed to "indoor world records") can be set in a facility "with or without roof". [2] (p. 546). As of June 2021, Carlo Thränhardt's 2.42 are still the absolute German national record [3].2A0A:A546:46E0:0:49A6:14DE:77DD:81DB (talk) 11:46, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

A late response, but there is no such category as "absolute" world records. There are World records in Indoor world records ( the vast majority of "world records" being set outdoors, hence they are typically called "outdoor" world records. But as for Thranhardt's national record... it is 2.37, NOT 2.42, as listed on page 504 of the very source you cited. Canada Jack (talk) 18:59, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

National records still a mess

It's time to clean up the mess that the National Records sections are. Marks set indoors are NOT eligible for National Records, which are determined by the respective national athletic committees. Any check on individual national pages shows that national records are set outdoors. Here is an example, the German records, as maintained by that nation's athletics federation. [4] The men's record there is 2.37, not the 2.42 indoor mark listed on this page. The women's record is 2.06, but not according to wikipedia, which apparently knows better than the German federation - it lists the indoor mark of 2.07 as the "national record."

How about the British men's record? According to the British national records page, it is 2.37. Wikipedia? Another ineligible indoor mark is listed as the "national record" - 2.38. Here is the link to the British page: [5]. Swedish women? On their page, the record is 2.06. Here, it's 2.08. [6]

I've brought this up before, and if no action is taken to clear up this mess, I propose we delete the sections until it is corrected.

This seems to stem from some editors conflating the World Athletics decision to allow marks set indoors to stand as World Records if all other criteria are met for regular records set outdoors. This does NOT mean individual nations now consider marks set indoors as eligible for national records! Canada Jack (talk) 00:00, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

The WA source listed outdoor and indoor records seperately, so should we. Pelmeen10 (talk) 21:09, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Height differentials

All time lists of athletes with the highest recorded jumps above their own height.

The height of the athletes is not officially measured and therefore cannot be verified. The sources do not meet the Wikipedia standard, the first one is an archived copy of an athletics forum, the second a private website that has not been updated since July 2014.

Therefore, I propose to remove the table. Scratch line (talk) 17:02, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

@Scratch line, I notice this section is still linked to in a few pages, see insource:"high jump#Height differentials". Do you think it might be worth adding an explanation of the concept in this article, if not the table? --Habst (talk) 14:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

References