Talk:Culture of Birmingham

This article is an unweildy mess

We need to disaggregate the historical elements from a contemporary profile of the arts in the city. I suggest three pages: "History of the fine arts in Birmingham" / "History of Music in Birmingham" / and "Arts in Birmingham" (strictly for a profile of the city now). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.182.168 (talk) 11:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Hendrix

Of Steve Winwood and Dave Mason, the article said "the last two being close friends of Jimi Hendrix. Winwood played on 5 Hendrix LP's and Hendrix first heard "All Along The Watchtower" by Bob Dylan at a party he was invited to by Mason, he decided to record his own version the same night with Mason playing acoustic guitar." I can find no evidence that Hendrix ever came to Birmingham so I have deleted this passage. The information about Hendrix is not relevant here. --Theo (Talk) 23:07, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Theo, this took place in London not Birmingham, why did you assume that it took place in Brum? 195.92.67.69 22:10, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I did not assume that it took place in Birmingham. Indeed, I imagined that it did not take place there. Since the event did not take place in Birmingham, it seemed irrelevant to the article. So I deleted it. I recognised, however, that I might be mistaken even though I did check that no event of this nature had occurred in Birmingham—because such an occurrence would merit inclusion here. --Theo (Talk) 22:25, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Parkes

Parkes reference deleted. It's reasonable to restrict arts topics to the institutions and the artists themselves rather than the peripheral technological roots. You won't see a description of the elephant or ivory on the Glenn Gould page just because of their historical contribution to piano keys! Parkes is well covered anyway under Science and invention in Birmingham. RayGirvan 20:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Celluloid was invented by Brummie, Alexander Parkes (1813-90) in Birmingham, from this Photographic film evolved.

Way to go! Let's have brickworks, without which all those cinemas and theatres couldn't have existed! The brass industry responsible for all the musical instruments! Paper mills for all the books! Birmingham waterworks, without which all those artists would be dead of thirst! There comes a point where relationships are too peripheral to be worth mentioning... RayGirvan 13:02, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nonsense, celluloid was the very beginning of photographic film and as such it should stay on the film section as a Brum first as well as invention, it is like mentioning the Steam engine without mentioning James Watt. The whole idea of wikipedia is to create a cross reference of articles that all relate to oneanother, Parkes - Brummie - invented Celluloid - Celluloid gave way to film - warrants mention on Brum arts. 195.92.67.69 22:08, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The line of descent isn't so straightforward. Parkes and his successor Spill saw no further than tacky trinkets, and went bankrupt. If anything they foresaw modern uses of plastic for utility and decorative objects. The lineage of celluloid film more probably goes back to the collodion process, c. 1850, which was the first use of a nitrocellulose based photographic emulsion. RayGirvan 22:44, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Jools Holland and Jam House

Let's go to source. Go to the site of Luminar plc, and search for "Jools". A quick skim finds that "in April 2000 we acquired the Jam House, a branded going concern concept, in conjunction with Jools Holland based in Birmingham", and that he's "on board as the venue’s musical and creative advisor" (which isn't a managerial post - the guy has a career). So he's probably a co-owner, but certainly doesn't "run" it in the general admin sense. RayGirvan 21:47, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Luminar's annual reports for the past few years have stated that Jools Holland was granted an option on 50,000 shares at £8.77 "to strengthen the company's relationship with [him]". The option is contingent upon him remaining involved with the Jam House until 2006. He may be a co-owner but we cannot conclude that from this. I think it most likely that he is being offered contingent remuneration for consultancy. I would guess that he was an owner of the Jam House before its acquisition by Luminar. I cannot confirm this without recourse to Companies House records. Perhaps someone with a subscription could check. --Theo (Talk) 22:52, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Reasonable conclusion. The FT November 2, 2000 describes the acquisition (no earlier details) saying the Jam House "is fronted" by Jools Holland. Birmingham Post, October 11, 2000: "Jam House, which has the considerable cachet of Jools Holland as one of its backing names". Basically we're talking a token role for them to have a prestigious name to wave. RayGirvan 23:42, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I saw Jools recently live, quite superb, I have also visited the Jam House Nick Boulevard 23:26, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Biographies

See Literary connections with Birmingham for many more examples of Birmingham and related authors. RayGirvan 22:56, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is why I find wikipedia interesting. Nick Boulevard 23:30, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Birdland

Birdland were actually from Kingsbury, south of Tamworth. Their record label was in Coventry. Still not Brummies, either way. --Brumburger 21:23, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Musical comparisons

Before we get into an argument over the inclusion of comparisons to other cities, can we please discuss the phrasing here? The fundamental question seems to be: is it necessary to compare the musical contribution of Birmingham to that of other cities?

In my opinion, the comparison is not essential but it does enhance the reader's understanding of the city's place in England's musical landscape. I propose: :Birmingham has had a vibrant and varied musical history over the last half-century. There has never been a "Birmingham sound" comparable to Merseybeat or Madchester but the city is described as the birthplace of Heavy Metal{{Inote|Konow|Konow}}.
—Theo (Talk) 08:29, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My intention in including the references to Liverpool and Manchester was to show that despite the fact that Birmingham's music scene isn't celebrated, it in fact matches up to (even surpasses) either of those cities. It's not the first place that would spring to mind if you were asked about a provincial city with a music scene, and that's partly because a lot of the music is (or was) not trendy - it doesn't get the critical kudos. Heavy Metal is hugely popular, friends who work in music retail tell me it's the only genre where sales are consistently increasing, but it's generally seen as a bit naff, music for spotty teenagers. ELO were one of the biggest bands of the seventies, but completely out of favour these days. The same could be said for Duran Duran in the eighties - huge success then, and still a lot of fans now, but you won't find many modern bands claiming them as an influence, they are seen as a slightly embarrassing relic. But when you look at Liverpool and Manchester closely, they don't have anything like the long-term success of Birmingham. I'd be happy with Theo's rewording. --Brumburger 09:04, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"My intention in including the references to Liverpool and Manchester was to show that despite the fact that Birmingham's music scene isn't celebrated" ~ who doesn't celebrate it?, the people of the city have supported local bands fervently and the Brum Beat scene although not as obvious to the media as other cities was quite extensive and some great musicians hailed from there, this is why I tried to include such trivia as Jimmy Hendrix recording All along the watchtower because of (and with a) Birmingham musician, one of the most influential rock recordings ever?

Birmingham bands have been very "trendy" whatever that means, Durran Durran whether you like it or not have been a big influence in recent club culture from the chronic hairstyles to the extravagant clothes style, I have heard many new bands such as the editors (another Brum band in current favour with radio 6) who play a similar style recently, to suggest that Duran Duran are a "slightly embarrassing relic" is a bit unfair and your opinion not mine, I think that seeing as you were happy to point out that you are a professional journo Ray It is fair now that I should point out that I am a professional musician. Dexys, The Beat, Traffic even early UB40 were all underground (better than trendy) individual acts and are still played on "trendy" stations today such as Radio 6. Manchester had a brilliant spell in the late eighties mainly down to the success of the Hacienda and its wide music policy, similar to the Rum Runner but on a much bigger but less stuck up scale.

Liverpool and Manchester are definately bigger in the medias eyes especially papers such as the New Musical Express who have had a dislike of anything Birmingham for some time, why should we pander to their misconceptions, Wikipedia is honest and as I keep getting told... unbiased, so we need to know the facts and not someone elses view which is always going to be challenged. Nick Boulevard 18:37, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I meant "celebrated" exactly in the sense of what you're saying in that last paragraph - being "bigger in the media", having a reputation. It's nothing to do with particular bands, it's to do with the city as a whole having a reputation as a centre for music. All the Liverpool post-punk groups of the early eighties traded on that city's reputation, as did Frankie Goes to Hollywood, and the Zutons do today. A lot of those groups were mediocre, but they got a bit of a boost from the association with the Beatles. Birmingham (as the article makes clear) has a great musical history but it doesn't have the same cachet. --Brumburger 19:08, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the media is it? Wikipedia is based on fact, when I initially wrote that article and researched all the brum bands I included a statement at the beginning which read something like.. "Birmingham has contributed massively to the British music scene for over half a century" but someone on this page deleted it, later someone else re-worded it to this (which I prefered and is not too OTT), http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Birmingham&oldid=11558397#Popular_music. Nick Boulevard 17:51, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. "Iconic" is another word that sprang to mind. Merseyside is, primarily through originating the Beatles: Birmingham isn't, despite its solid track record. RayGirvan 10:04, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

How can you suggest that Black Sabbath are not iconic? Nick Boulevard 18:37, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We were talking about the musical reputation of regions as a whole. RayGirvan 19:55, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ray, according to Google hits (Andy Mabbetts prefered method of establishing how important something is) Black Sabbath figure quite highly in musical reputation and seem to be quite iconic, so do Duran Duran etc. If we are talking about musical reputation of a region as a whole then we could add Nick Drake to brum (west mids) list who grew up a few miles south of Brum or the Specials from Coventry, we do not need to mention the word iconic or Liverpool or Manchester or any other missleading comment other than Brum has produced some really talented musicians, their scene is an ongoing one that relies on a proud heritage, the view that Manchester or Liverpool's music scene is more famous than that of Brum is a contentious issue and one that could be argued till the cows don't pup on the fields. Lets drop this and concentrate on the article... Popular music in Birmingham. Nick Boulevard 22:57, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Revised version adopting Ray's lovely word:

Birmingham has had a vibrant and varied musical history over the last half-century. There has never been an iconic "Birmingham sound" comparable to Merseybeat or Madchester but the city is described as the birthplace of Heavy Metal{{Inote|Konow|Konow}}.

—Theo (Talk) 13:29, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Theo, the Brum Beat in the 60's was brums own sound mate, look here please. http://www.brumbeat.net/ thanks. Nick Boulevard 18:37, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's worth mentioning but - see this NME reprint - it does appear to have been a branding construct rather than a unified style like, say, Merseybeat. RayGirvan 18:57, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And who do you propose branded the merseybeat, could it have been press releases from a record label, can you verify this please. Nick Boulevard 22:51, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Google finds "about 995" for 'Brumbeat', "about 247,000" for 'Merseybeat'. Andy Mabbett 19:06, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Are we now to base wikipedia inclusion on google hits, thats a bit naive isn't it? Nick Boulevard 22:57, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[resetting indents] The site that Nick cites says Norrie Paramore apparently came up with "Brum Beat" as part of an advertising campaign to promote national interest in the bands he had signed up from Birmingham, but the term Brum Beat would later become known more for the geographical location that certain groups and performers came from, rather than for a single unifying "sound". As Ray says, it is worth mentioning but I do not see how to do so without diminishing the "birthplace of heavy metal". How about:

Birmingham has had a vibrant and varied musical history over the last half-century. There has never been an iconic "Birmingham sound" comparable to Merseybeat or Madchester but the city is described as the birthplace of Heavy Metal{{Inote|Konow|Konow}}. Norrie Paramore of EMI promoted his West Midlands bands under a "Brum Beat" slogan in the 1960s but this did not represent a single sound{{Inote|Woodhouse, <http://www.brumbeat.net/oview.htm>|WoodhouseOview}} and was one of many attempts to exploit the Merseybeat phenomenon.

The associated reference is: [http://www.brumbeat.net/oview.htm Woodhouse, John R. 'Welcome to Brum Beat', ''Brum Beat'' (2005)]. Retrieved [[June 20]] [[2005]]. —Theo (Talk) 20:16, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry to be pedantic here but what about the amount of Reggae artists and bands that have evolved out of a Brum reggae scene, amount to more than Manchester and Liverpool combined but have arguably been overlooked by the press because Birmingham isn't "trendy", shall we mention this also ie: Birmingham has a great history of reggae musicians, more so than Liverpool and Manchester combined do you get my point? Why use a comparison when it is not needed, I would argue that Brum has contributed to the Madchester scene with the Charlatans who are always refered to as a Manchester band, I think that if we were to keep the reference to Liverpool and Manchester it needs to be explained further Nick Boulevard 22:51, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That is also interesting. Can we say that more reggae artists come from Brum than any other English city except London? I would need a source but I think that this would be sufficiently significant to merit a mention. The origin of the Charlatans is something for the body of the section. The thrust of this opening paragraph is to communicate the things for which Brum is famous. Overlooked or neglected achievements could form a second paragraph—perhaps that is where we should mention reggae and the Charlatans. If we all accept the form of paragraph one, we can put that in the article and move on to paragraph two.—Theo (Talk) 07:32, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Theo, the thing is that this initial title has been changed about so much since I first bulked up the popular music section some months ago, please read my last response to Brum Burger above, this intro stayed for ages and it doesn't suggest anything other than the absolute truth, it is neither OTT Brum biased nor is it highlighting any "poor old overlooked brum" type of wording, the initial sentence to the article IMO should be short and to the point, we can asume that the reader may have never thought of comparing Birminghams music to that of Liverpool, London or Manchester, this is an encyclopedia and bare facts should remain otherwise I would like the Jimmy Hendrix stuff back again, this is why I added them in the first place so as to try and shout about the music scene and it's influence, you rightly pointed this out to be trivia and irelivant to the article, I now agree but I disagree that we should have reference to other cities on the page, the reader can see for themselves just how much or little the city has contributed to Brit music from the bands and musicians, they only need to click to Manchester or Liverpool to see what those cities offer, am I to go to Liverpool and Manchester and add a comment at the start of their music section... "Although the Afro-Caribbean music scene is not as diverse or successful as Birmingham... etc.." how long do you reckon it would remain and believe me there are plenty of examples of bias on those pages. I suggest not comparing to anywhere, just something like what was there before, "Over the years Birmingham has been a centre of inovation for many different types of music." Black Sabbath are more successful/famous heavy metal band than anything in Liverpool or Manchester, UB40 are a more successful/famous reggae band than anything in Liverpool or Manchester, The beat are a more successful/famous ska/2-tone band than anything in Liverpool and Manchester, Traffic were a more successful/famous psychadelic band than anything in Manchester, Duran Duran are a more successful/famous new romantic band than anything in Liverpool or Manchester, I realise that this is what the sentence was trying to suggest, IMO it reads as though it is trying to cement the media misconception that Brum music has not been as famous as the cities mentioned when in fact it has, I really think this should be dropped, If I object you can guarantee others will and personally I would like there to be some kind of sustenance to what we decide here. Thanks Nick Boulevard 17:51, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In which case, how about:

Birmingham has had a vibrant and varied musical history over the last half-century. There has never been an iconic "Birmingham sound" but the city is described as the birthplace of Heavy Metal{{Inote|Konow|Konow}}, and was home to bands of international reknown. Norrie Paramore of EMI promoted his West Midlands bands under a "Brum Beat" slogan in the 1960s but this did not represent a single sound{{Inote|Woodhouse, <http://www.brumbeat.net/oview.htm>|WoodhouseOview}} and was one of many attempts to exploit the Merseybeat phenomenon. —Theo (Talk) 23:00, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Further proposal: treat this as another example of Nick's distorted agenda and obstruction of rational edits about Birmingham. I'm adding it to the RfC as an example of how he hasn't changed.RayGirvan 23:21, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ray, what on earth are you talking about? This is getting a bit pathetic, it really is I was about to post a reply to Theo as we are trying to reach a compromise about this page that could be welcomed by all and the contribution you offer is to stirr up trouble, Ray... you really do not like poeple argueing against you I have not touched the page and I won't until the discussion is finished, I have just as much a right to what "intro" sits on this page as you or anyone else here, that is exactly what we were discussing untill you... grrrr Nick Boulevard 23:34, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Whats even more annoying is that I have now lost my last reply to Theo which gave an alternative option part wording his last version.... I just can't be bothered now, do what you want. Nick Boulevard 23:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't care if it incites your gormless rage. This discussion is entirely about long-standing issues. It riles you that Birmingham isn't as iconic as somewhere else, so we get the usual w*nk along the lines of Birmingham music being iconic because your sister's aunt knew someone whose cat was vaccinated by a vet who liked Slade. RayGirvan 00:00, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

gormless rage... usual w*nk... ~ slowly, slowly... ;) Nick Boulevard 00:55, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[Resetting indents]Ray: Your proposal is not helpful. Nick: I would still like to see your proposed rewrite.—Theo (Talk) 08:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hi Theo, don't worry I won't take Rays comment personally, It actually takes quite a lot to get me into a "gormless rage" :) infact just for the record I was chilling out with a Beer whilst listening to The Doors last night, lovely eveing as well.

Ok I have just come in from work and I will try and remember what was lost in the cross edit, I will post later. Thanks. Nick Boulevard 17:05, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Musical Comparisons (part II)

Ok, I have taken into account the fact that Brum has never had a particular music scene as famous as the Merseysound or Madchester scene although the city has contributed to both scenes (charlatans - Manc & Fortunes - Mersey), I am in the process of elaborating on the music article so as to highlight the intro, to reach a compromise I will be addressing the facts that Birmingham has appreciated many "supergroups" who have received much acclaim and notoriety and whilst the city has experienced micro music scenes there has never been a city-wide scene that could be labeled as such, I have come up with this as the initial intro:

"Whilst cities such as Liverpool and Manchester have enjoyed famous music scenes that have been easily labeled by the British media Birmingham's music styles have often proved difficult to "box" with many smaller scenes evolving (possibly due to its sprawling size) or individual supergroups taking the limelight rather than the city itself. Birmingham has had a vibrant and varied musical history over the last half-century with many famous Birmingham musicians contributing to a wider British music scene in general."

I was going to mention heavy metal in there but it is not 100% a Birmingham sound, like most scenes the city has contributed rather than created the sound although heavy metal obviously has more longevity than either the merseybeat or madchester scene, which incidentally incorporated the indie and baggy scene as well with bands from all over the country, anyway... is this a fair compromise? Thanks Nick Boulevard 1 July 2005 18:02 (UTC)

Ok, if no one objects then I shall use the above wording in the article. Thanks all. Nick Boulevard 4 July 2005 18:04 (UTC)

I object. Three "scenes" in one para; size doesn't "sprawl"; Birmingham doesn't have "music styles"; species evolve, not "scenes"; there haven't been many "supergroups". Andy Mabbett 5 July 2005 23:09 (UTC)

According to Hamlyns "The Illustrated History of Rock Music" by Jeremy Pascall (ISBN 0 600 37605 2) and Wikipedia.

1. The Moody Blues are classed as a superband/group with an album featured, they started out as a "good pop band with a great image in 1965" and after band member changes they became "one of the most successful bands of the time" reaching "superstardom".

2. Robert Plant "Leader of the Midland Flower People" in 1967 and John Bonham learned their music skills in Birmingham bands and were born and raised within a few kilometres of the city itself hence their involvement with the Brum Beat, Jimmy page played for a Birmingham band not long before starting Led Zeppelin and later incorporated Robert and John, the three members becoming Led Zeppelin - "The biggest group of the early to mid-decade (1970's) was, without the slightest doubt, Led Zeppelin. Between them Robert Plant, Jimmy Page, John Paul Jones and John Bonham released something that might be described as Rock Of Attrition- the loudest, heaviest ever heard. Led Zeppelin was a musical juggernaught, an armageddon machine powered by the crashingest rythm drive ever unleashed on an innocent public. Seeing Led Zeppelin for the first time may be compared to going into battle against Hannibal and coming face-to-face with armoured elephants- you don't know whether to flee for your life or stand and watch this incredible sight and thus risk being ground under foot. Led Zeppelin was the only truly succesful supergroup." One of the most famous Rock bands in the world with Plant still releasing music.

3. Traffic are described as an "early supergroup" the main musician being Brummie Steve Winwood. "In September '67 Melody Maker - then Britain's most aware thoughtful and serious music weekly - featured a Magnificent Seven of the best guitarists in the world. Six were British and one an American who had to come to Britain to find acceptance. They were Eric Clapton, Pete Townshend, Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page, Stevie Winwood, Peter Green and Jimi Hendrix... Winwood had been in the Spencer Davis Group and had recently founded Traffic." Blind Faith - "Joining our two superheroes in 1969 were the young prodigy of the early sixties, Stevie Winwood, by now a veteran of cult worship after his highly successful stint with Traffic..."

4. UB40 are without contest the most famous UK Reggae band ever, they were the only uk mixed race band of any substantial fame to be used in the recent Live 8 concert in London and are famous world wide.

5. As taken from Wikipedia itself. "Judas Priest are a heavy metal band formed in 1969 in Birmingham, England by Ken Downing and Ian Hill. The band's classic line-up consists of vocalist Rob Halford, guitarists K.K. Downing and Glenn Tipton, and Ian Hill on bass guitar. They epitomize the classic heavy metal genre, particularly the NWOBHM ("New Wave of British Heavy Metal") movement, and have influenced hundreds of musicians and bands. Their popularity and influence earned them the nickname "The Metal Gods".

6. Wizzard - The most famous UK Christmas release band EVER! :)

7. As taken from Wikipedia itself. "Black Sabbath are a British progressive heavy metal band, originally comprised of John "Ozzy" Osbourne (vocals), Tony Iommi (guitar), Terence "Geezer" Butler (bass), and Bill Ward (drums). They are without question the most influential heavy metal band in history. They are also cited by many as the very first heavy metal band."

8. Duran Duran are still the most successful and world famous UK New Romantic group, "The band has sold over 70 million records, and has had eighteen singles in the Billboard Hot 100 chart, and thirty in the Top 40 of the UK Singles Chart". The band have an immense cult following, even now they fill huge venues like for instance the NEC, they took part in the originall Band Aid and the more recent Live 8.

9. Dexys Midnight Runners have to receive some credit also purely for their long standing popularity and individual style which is described as New Wave and Northern Soul.

10. The Streets, "Has It Come To This" proved to be a breakthrough hit for The Streets, going top-twenty in 2001. His debut album, Original Pirate Material, Skinner wanted to take garage in a new direction with material reflecting the lifestyle of British youth. The album was released in 2002 and proved to be successful both with critics and the general public. In the UK, the album was nominated for the prestigious Mercury Music Prize. The Streets was nominated for best album, best urban act, best breakthrough artist and best British male artist in the 2002 Brit awards. The NME named it as one of their top five albums of 2002.

Original Pirate Material had debuted and peaked at number 12 in the UK album charts, and wouldn't reach any higher until his next album was released.

The success of Original Pirate Material in the UK led to a US release of the album through Vice/Atlantic in late 2002. It quickly became a critical favourite with Rolling Stone, Spin Magazine, The New York Times Blender, USA Today and the LA Times all nominating it as one of the albums of the year. The album reached number 2 on the Billboard electronic charts and the top 20 on the independent and Heatseeker charts in the US in 2003.

11. Birmingham formed The Charlatans are the most sucessful and famous UK indie band still writing music with most of the musicians coming from the West Midlands.

My inclusion of the words supergroup and famous are not just my own words Andy and when you take into account the musicians as well the city is actually extremely famous. Nick Boulevard 8 July 2005 18:33 (UTC)

These references look like terribly hyped descriptions. Is this supposed to be an objective assessment? -

Led Zeppelin was a musical juggernaught, an armageddon machine powered by the crashingest rhythm drive ever unleashed on an innocent public. Seeing Led Zeppelin for the first time may be compared to going into battle against Hannibal and coming face-to-face with armoured elephants

To be fair, did you ever watch Led Zeppelin perform live in the late 60's early 70's? as the book tells us... Jeremy Pascall, journalist, editor, author and broadcaster has specialized in chronicling the popular arts. He started his career as a reporter on New Musical Express before moving to a pop magazine Rave magazine, as a feature writer in the late 60's. He was, for several years, the rock reviewer of 19 magazine. He has written books on Paul McCartney and Wings and the Rolling Stones. He edited a four volume history of rock entitled The Story of Pop and many books on rock subjects including Elvis Presley, punk rock, black music, Elton John, the Beach Boys, the Beatles and country music. In addition he contributes to magazines around the world and is (was) co-author of Hamlyn's A Pictoral History of Sex in the Movies - I have been trying to get hold of a copy of "Hamlyn's A Pictoral History of Sex in the Movies" but I can't find it anywhere?

The rock book is excellent, really extensive and informative with some brilliant photographs, well recommended with bands such as The Who, Stones and Pink Floyd covered extensively, by the way here are a few links to pascal articles:

reviewer

sad loss to broadcasting

an interesting move interview for NME

NME

did you ever watch Led Zeppelin perform live in the late 60's early 70's?. No. Did you ever come face-to-face with armoured elephants? I don't doubt Pascall's credentials. It's just that he writes in rock journalism style: it's difficult to assess who's genuinely important, because it cranks up the importance of everyone.

Erm... how wrong can you be.. Mr Invisible???, the point is that we have an opinion of a writer who, during the 60's and 70's, wrote prolificaly for the major music publications of the UK, the term "supergroup" has to come from someone/somewhere... Birmingham has provided the UK with many supergroups... Nick Boulevard 00:25, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Did I mention the word "supergroup"? I'm just questioning the general objectivity of assessments from coffee-table books written in ludicrously hyped language. Must stop now: it's late, and the feeling in my eyelids can be compared to their having been trampled by a herd of armoured elephants. [Unsigned by User:195.92.67.78 03:17, 10 July 2005]

I am with User:195.92.67.78 on this one. Oh, and I am now going to reset the indent! —Theo (Talk) 10:55, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Is the following an acceptable form?

While cities such as Liverpool and Manchester have enjoyed famous music scenes that have been easily labeled by the British media, Birmingham's music styles have proved difficult to package because of their diversity and the tendency for high profile individual groups to emphasise their own brand rather than that of the city. Birmingham has had a vibrant and varied musical history over the last half-century with many famous Birmingham musicians contributing to British music in general. —Theo (Talk) 10:55, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I must admit that the book is a little hyped but then isn't that journalsim? Anyway, I think that looks good Theo. UB40 and Duran Duran have always championed Birmingham, both bands often being interviewed about their roots, Duran Duran recently played the NEC where they were hyping the audience and saying how proud they were to be back infront of their Birmingham home crowd, UB40 fronted the live capital of culture bid for Brum. Ocean Colour scene named their most successful album after a suburb of Birmingham, the Streets sang about the Bulring in Brum and Matt Skinner is not shy in stating where he grew up, West Heath. I think that the emphasis could be put on the idea that the media choose not to associate certain bands with the city because often the bands are individual in their style and do not pertain to a particular scene in the city, whereas Manchester scene consisted of many bands all sounding similar and Bristol trip hop scene the same. I concede to your removal of "supergroup", I guess it's a bit dated anyway, what about:

While cities such as Liverpool and Manchester have enjoyed famous music scenes that have been easily labeled by the British media, Birmingham's music styles have proved difficult to package because of their diversity. The tendency for the media is to often concentrate on high profile individual groups rather than the city itself. Birmingham has had a vibrant and varied musical history over the last half-century with many famous Birmingham musicians contributing to British music in general. Nick Boulevard 12:14, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually we could merge Theo's edit with what is already there, after a second look it fits ok? Nick Boulevard 12:20, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Led Zeppelin precursors and graffiti

Andy: Please explain why the two pieces of information and the two typos that you reintroduced to the aricle are enhancements. Your assertion that "their music bore no resemblance to Led Zepeplin" is not even supported by the written and musical sources. Members of Band Of Joy have commented that Plant used some of the band's pieces for early Zeppelin numbers; have you ever heard anything by Band Of Joy or do you have a source stating the dissimilarity? And why is the legality of graffiti pertinent to this article? In my opinion the place for comments on the legality of graffiti is in the Graffiti article. —Theo (Talk) 11:57, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

1) Of course typos are no t enhancements, Please feel free to correct any you find. 2) It's ages since I heard any Band of Joy, but since Wikipedia is not for "original research", I don't see how that is pertinent, anyway 3) "using the pieces" (which could simply mean lyrics, or songs whcih were "covered" by Led Zep) does not sit with the Led Zep articles' claims as to their originality. Please cite your claim. 4) The legality of graffiti is of relevance, because of the context. Andy Mabbett 13:02, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

1) I apologise for the typos gibe. It was a snide response to your having reverted corrected typos back into the article.
2) I think you may be misunderstanding No Original Research. It is about not introducing new ideas. It is not about not checking assertions. The reason I wondered whether you had heard any Band of Joy is that you may have recognised some of the songs that they covered as the bases for some Zeppelin songs. You might then have read the Led Zep material here on Wikipedia with a different eye and noticed the references to plagiarism and rearrangement.
3) [Led Zeppelin]], Led Zepellin (album), and Led Zeppelin II all mention areas in which the band were not original. This is not to detract from Led Zep. As far as I can tell (and I know from experience that using such a modifier opens the way for you to say that I must therefore be wrong; please resist that) Led Zep played covers and rearrangements of the blues numbers (that they had covered as Band of Joy and in other bands) in a heavy metal style. Using the technique that you have demonstrated earlier: please do not make assertions that you cannot support with explicit references. I have been unable to find a reference that states that Led Zeppelin's "music bore no resemblance" to that of the bands in which its members previously played. Band of Joy played the numbers from which Led Zepelin numbers were derived. Led Zep covered songs that were covered by Band of Joy. I agree that Heavy Metal is a very different sound to the Blues, but it is not entirely without resemblance to the blues and to maintain that two covers of the same song bear no resemblance is inappropriate exaggeration in an encyclopedia article.
4) Please explain why it is necessary in this context to explain that graffiti "is illegal, and regarded by some as vandalism", particularly when graffiti is only illegal when applied without consent (is all Birmingham graffiti illegal?).
—Theo (Talk) 15:00, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi Theo and all, graffiti art is carried out illegally in Brum but many legal pieces are still carried out like for example in Selly Oak ball park, the Custard Factory and in Selfridges, thanks for picking up on Andy's adjustments, I look forward to his clarification on his Led Zep edits. Nick Boulevard 00:09, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Media

Sources: http://www.skillset.org/uk/westmids/article_1831_1.asp

http://www.publications.bham.ac.uk/annual-review-03/june.htm

http://www.transdiffusion.org/pmc/studio1/circles.htm

Nick Boulevard 16:23, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Merging

Personally, I think everything from Music of Birmingham which isn't already here (if there is anything, which I doubt) should be put in this article and MoB turned into a redirect. But I'm not that bothered which way it goes, as long as we end up with one article containing all the information. --Brumburger 09:14, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Fine (so long as the page length remians sensible). Andy Mabbett 09:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Having done a side-by-side comparison, most of MoB is a subset of AiB (probably just an earlier version of this article), the exception being the section on dance music which doesn't appear here at all. So maybe the answer is to move all the musical stuff from here to there. --Brumburger 12:06, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd rather see the music stuff on a separate page, although looking at the pattern which the Music of Birmingham page was formed on (as per comments on its talk page) - i.e. Music of Manchester (and Music of the United Kingdom from which that page effectively devolves) - it might be appropriate to put only popular music onto that page and keep the classical music here. Arts in Birmingham could then have a "see Music of Birmingham" line under the sub-heading Popular music. Also, if the Music of Birmingham page is kept then it should probably add the {{Britishmusic}} tag as per the aforementioned pages. (N.B. Classical music is not covered in any of these pages - presumably as it is seen as non-indigenous...).

Moving popular music to a separate page gives more room to develop the other arts on this page. It will also mean I will spend less time as a spectator of the numerous edit wars that popular music seems to attract :) Valiantis 13:21, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good to me - I can see the point about classical music not belonging with other forms. Looking at the other "Music from X" articles, they either seem to be about regional styles (i.e. folk, mainly), or an area's popular music scene. --Brumburger 15:03, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with the merge. A separate "music of" seems reasonable, even if the two articles aren't very well differentiated at this point. I note that music of Birmingham is listed as an encyclopedia topic at Wikipedia:Music encyclopedia topics. The fact that there's no classical info just means the article's incomplete. Tuf-Kat 16:26, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I would suggest classical music might not be covered in Music of the United Kingdom because it is by definition (see European classical music) not possible to break such music down along national boundaries. I appreciate this is an opinion, not a fact. Also, the category is called music of Birmingham, not music in Birmingham. I think this distinction is significant. Valiantis 12:08, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

While I opposed this merge to begin with, it was not really done very well. Even if you wanted to make classical and popular music separate, why put the music festivals and venues in between? And its not really neutral to put obscure, underground house and hip hop music under "popular" since many would dispute that classification. And why are some festivals covered under "classical music" and some under a separate heading? This article now looks very unbalanced. Tuf-Kat 04:43, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I apologise for making the merge without reading this talk page first. I know better now guys.ant_ie 18:30, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

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