Talk:Bert Trautmann

Change this confusing sentence

"One such practical joke involving a car backfired on Trautmann, resulting in a staff sergeant burning his arms."

(Given that a car made to backfire as a practical joke can cause burns to the arms means the sentence is confusing especially if as seems likely the practical joke involved some other aspect of the car - basically explain better but certainly leave out the word `backfired' unless that was the actual practical joke with the car). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.210.174 (talk) 16:41, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Testimonial

In 1964 he finished his career with a testimonial in front of a crowd of 60,000 people, not bad for a German whom no one had originally wanted. At this testimonial Bobby Charlton, the captain of the English national team, called him one of the greatest goalkeepers ever.

I'm changing this to Bobby Moore, as I presume this is who was meant - in 1964 Jimmy Armfield of Blackpool FC captained England against Scotland on 11th April, Ron Flowers of Wolverhampton Wanderers captained England against the USA on 27th May, Wales on 18th November, and the Netherlands on 9th December. All other England matches that year were captained by Bobby Moore (v Uruguay, 6th May; Portugal, 17th May; Republic of Ireland, 24th May; Brazil, 30th May; Portugal, 4th June; Argentina, 6th June; Northern Ireland, 3rd October; and Belgium, 21st October). (England Football Online) -- Arwel 15:24, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Charlton or Moore? It was Charlton who said, "Trautmann was one of the greatest goalkeepers ever."

Bobby Charlton was actually playing for the combined City and United team. Tom Finney, Stanley Matthews and Jimmy Armfield were amongst those playing for the England eleven.

(User: Trevor Roberts, 25th October, 2005)

Factual problem

There was no Football League Fourth Division until 1958 so how could he have played in that division post-war? Cutler 12:28, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

Dunno. Obviously someone couldn't conceive of a lower standard of football! According to the timeline] at St Helens Town's unofficial website, the club was reformed in 1946 and played in the Liverpool County Combination from 1946 until it was promoted into the Lancashire Combination Division 2 in 1949. I've changed the article appropriately. -- Arwel 17:09, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Factual problem

I know very little about this guy, but I pretty sure that his father is not Snoop Dog —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.66.180.202 (talk) 19:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

POW Camp

There is evidence to suggest that Trautmann spent some time in the Northumberland village of Wylam as a POW prior to being moved to the Manchester area. It is also suggested that Trautmann played for local teams whilst located in Wylam. See (Brooks P.R: 1998) "Wylam Past - A Pictorial History of a Northumberland Village" p.45.

Anyone know any more about this?

He was never moved to the Manchester area. He was in Essex, Northwich, Ashton in Makerfield, Milnthorpe and Huyton. Never Manchester. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.170.205.195 (talk) 22:24, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Changed line

I changed this line "quite a change from the crowd that initially didn't want a Nazi." to "quite a change from the crowd that initially didn't want a German." as I haven't seen anywhere that he was a nazi. -- User:Drogo 22:08, 3 Aug 2006 (UTC

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bert Trautmann/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I think this is a really nice article, and I enjoyed reading it. I do have a few comments though:

• Youth in Germany seems a little bit short. Is nothing else known about it? Did he have any brothers or sisters for instance?

• We're told in the lead that he refused the offer of repratiation in 1948, but later, in Early football career, we're told it was in 1947.

• "The couple had three children, all sons, though his firstborn son who was killed in a car accident a few months after the FA Cup Final in 1956, aged five." This needs to be rewritten.

• "One of Trautmann's weaknesses was acceptance of criticism ..." Reads a bit awkwardly, I think, and leaves the door open to asking the question "What were his other weaknesses?" What about something like "Trautmann found it difficult to accept criticism ..."?

• "The printed sources – especially the ones being repeatedly cited – should be separated from the notes to make finding them easier, and cited including the author's surname. I've made the changes to Rowlands' Trautmann: The Biography to show what I mean.

• Note#37 is broken.

• A picture or two would be nice to have, if possible.

• "Though recognised as one of the leading goalkeepers of his era, he never played international football ... Trautmann's only experience of international football came in 1960 ...." Presumably what's meant is that Trautmann never played football for his country?

That's about it, I think. I'm putting this article on hold to allow time for these relatively minor issues to be dealt with. Nice job. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Note: a copy of the article from reference 37 can be found at http://www.herefordtimes.com/search/848963.The_day_Edgar_St_hailed_brave_Bert_/. GaryColemanFan (talk) 22:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I've dealt with (or attempted to deal with) all the above points, more specific responses to three of them:

• The chronology of the repatriation offer is not totally clear. The repatriation process started in 1947, but did not complete until 1948. I've reworded it so that the repatriation offer itself is not dated.
• I've added a little more about his youth. Not mentioning the Hindenburg certificate was something of an oversight, so I'm glad I've looked over the sources for that period again. Rowlands' biography is the only source to talk about his youth in any real detail.
• The lack of a free-use image of Trautmann was a major factor in the decision to submit the article for GA instead of FA. I have an image in mind which would qualify as fair use, but I currently lack access to a scanner. I have added two images of tangential relevance. Oldelpaso (talk) 13:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for dealing with all of those issues. I've got no hesitation at all in listing this article as a GA now, as I believe it more than meets the GA criteria, and is in fact a plausible FA candidate. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your copyediting. I may take the article to FAC in future, once a couple more images are sorted out. A recent visit to the National Football Museum revealed that the neck brace worn by Trautmann after his injury is normally on display, but is on loan to Vienna for the duration of Euro 2008. I intend to make a second visit to get a photo of it, by which time I hope to have sorted a fair use picture of the 1956 cup final too. Oldelpaso (talk) 21:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Good luck with that. When you take this article to FA I'll certainly be onside to help in any way I can. Even though I am a Man U supporter, one of only three who actually live in Greater Manchester apparently. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello... What a great READ this article is! I don't give more than a Hoot about 'Football' Yet this whole story held me from start to finish... Should be a movie or something. Kudo's to all who contributed to it. Why Wikipedia is on my Bookmark list! Sincerely, 71.6.81.62 (talk) 00:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)--MBD--71.6.81.62 (talk) 00:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Anachronism

Bert Trautmann was never "red carded" as red and yellow cards did not come into use until the 1970 World Cup (See Penalty card). Even if one argues that this is a metaphor for being sent off, it introduces a sense of accidental - and potentially misleading - anachronism. I have changed it to "being sent off." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.78.113.193 (talk) 20:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

You are absolutely right, good spot. Oldelpaso (talk) 15:03, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Does this belong into the article?

Ath the end of the second paragraph: He had died twenty days later after smoking pot. He was using soda powder. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.163.29.116 (talk) 14:49, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Personal Information

In the box "Personal Information" on the Article page his date of birth 22 October 1923, correct enough, but then added in brackets: (aged 86).

Somehow I don't think that is right and we cannot edit!

Can this obvious mistake be corrected? It may cause embarrassment.

MacOfJesus (talk) 18:44, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't see what the problem is. Most personal infoboxes will calculate the person's age. Nothing to be ashamed of in being 86, I'm glad he's still around and in the unlikely event that he sees this, happy birthday Bert. Great article, one of the most interesting FA's I've read in some time.yorkshiresky (talk) 19:30, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I now see the significance, I was not expecting to see a calculation of his age here. Virtual World! How real is that! Happy Birthday, too!

MacOfJesus (talk) 20:54, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

What confused me was the comment above affirming of referring to a reference that he had died 20 years earlier, which appeared at the time to be true, is it? Maybe someone, who knows, should affirm or deny.

MacOfJesus (talk) 12:01, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

It was vandalism, and was removed. Bert is alive and well. Oldelpaso (talk) 17:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank You.MacOfJesus (talk) 22:32, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

---

Factual Problem (another one)

I wonder if Bert Trautman ever reads this page. If so, I'd like to ask him a question. (Anyone else who knows the true story may also answer this one).

Which pow camp was Bert Trautman at?

It is claimed 'locally' that he was in Garswood Park Camp, Ashton in Makerfield, Lancashire. It is also claimed that he was in a camp in Huyton, Lancashire. Now, on this page, someone suggests another camp.

It's written that he played for Garswood Park against Haydock Park in 1946. Garswood Park camp closed in April, 1948. It is written that he was released in 1948 and played for Manchester city in 1949. This doesn't give him much time to have played for St.Helens Town, does it?

As it is, everybody's dad played against him, scored against him, had a pint with him, was his mate etc. etc. etc. So, over toyou Bert. What's the truestory?

92.239.71.235 (talk) 23:08, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Intro

The introduction states that Trautmann made 545 appearances for Manchester City, but only 508 can be seen in the infobox. The introduction also states that the DFB's development scheme sent him to Burma, Tanzania and Pakistan, but Burma, Liberia and Pakistan are in the infobox. If the 545 appearances also include cup games, could this be mentioned? And what's with Tanzania/Liberia? Can someone check and correct the information? Many thanks. Jared Preston (talk) 17:27, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

1956 FA Cup Final

It would be great if someone could create the line-ups for the 1956 FA Cup Final and include it in the article. -- Linksfuss (talk) 10:25, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

The team line-ups are shown at 1956 FA Cup Final#Details. Interesting information, but I think it would be off-topic to include it in an article about the life of one of the players. – Wdchk (talk) 15:23, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Location of Bert's remains

Anybody know where Bert was buried or cremated? I've looked everywhere, no joy.Fletcherbrian (talk) 14:45, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

According to the Manchester Evening News in a piece published in July, shortly after his death: "Trautmann’s third wife Marlis and his family plan to scatter his ashes over the sea in Valencia, where he spent his final years, on October 22 which would have been his 90th birthday." Oldelpaso (talk) 18:07, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

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Second World War dubious claims, needs better quality sources and detail

• Was Trautmann a paratrooper?

The article states he was, but provides no information on his regiment. The article then states he was part of the 35th Division. This division was part of the German Army (heer) not the Luftwaffe or its ground forces (Fallschirmjager divisions or Luftwaffe feld divisions; even if it was the latter, they were not paratrooper units. The article also does not explain when Trautmann apparently transferred from the Luftwaffe (Fallschirmjager regiments and ground forces were not broken up and assigned to Heer formations, although they largely acted in an infantry role for much of the war). If he was part of the German Army, it begs the question: was he even a paratrooper?

German Wikipedia is more precise: It says he was a member of Nachrichtenregiment 35 (not: Infantry Division) of 7.Flieger-Division. Either the source Alan Rowlands: Trautmann: The Biography. Breedon, Derby 2005, ISBN 1-85983-491-4. or the author is maybe wrong here --Elric63 (talk) 22:23, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• Kleve

The article makes the hyperbolic statement of "he was one of the few survivors of the Allied bombing". This needs to be clarified: one of the few survivors from his unit? Or one of the few survivors of the bombing of the city? One also notes that the heaviest bombing of the city took place in 1945, yet this sentence implies a massive devastating raid in 1944.

• Normandy

The article specifies that he was transferred to France in anticipation of the Normandy landings: the Normandy landings achieved quite a large degree of surprise, with the majority of the German high command seeing the Pas de Calais as the primary target. So was he transferred to France in general in preparation of the Allied invasion i.e. drop the specificity. Did Trautmann even serve in Normandy or France; the article implies no.

• Going AWOL

The article states that he was being transferred to France, yet the article implies he only made it to Kleve just in time for the bombing. Furthermore, the information available states Trautmann went AWOL at the end of the war, not in 1944 as implies in the article.

• Americans?

The article is unclear if Trautmann was captured in Kleve or in Bremen. Either way, how was he captured by Americans? Both cities were captured by British forces, Americans operated to their south and only entered the Bremen area following the end of the war when the country was carved up into occupation zones.

this is rather unclear .In an interview Trautmann himself quotes

Mein Schicksal ist durch äußere Umstände bestimmt worden, beschrieb Trautmann anlässlich seines 85. Geburtstages im Gespräch mit der Nachrichtenagentur dpa sein ungewöhnliches Leben. Wenige Wochen vor Kriegsende war er in britische Gefangenschaft geraten. Das war am 27.03.1945 am Niederrhein, erinnerte sich Trautmann. So einen Tag vergisst man nicht. Tod einer Torwartlegende www.stern.de 2013-07-19-

This indicates a capture near Rhine (maybe somewhere around Kleve) --Elric63 (talk) 23:04, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• Captured by the Soviets and the French resistance?

Several sources on this mans life dispute if it was the French resistance or if it was Free French Forces with the American army. So which one was it? More to the point, when did these events take place as they are not mentioned anywhere else in the article. According to the article, he never even made it to France since he got bombed in Kleve. At any rate, a better quality source is needed for such an incredible claim: escaping twice, based on nothing more than his own claim? The entire article section on this man's life during the war sounds like an action novel that is not grounded in reality.

I understand that this is an article primarily about a football player, but better quality sources and detail is required considering the ease holes are poked in the story presented.172.96.34.206 (talk) 01:40, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

YMCA?

In his 'Early life' section I notice a citation need placed against his having taken part in YMCA activities. Was the YMCA allowed to function in Germany after the Nazi takeover in 1933 (the year he turned 10 yrs old), I am aware that ultimately youth organisations outside the Hitlerjugend and BDM, notably the Boy Scouts, were outlawed for the duration.Cloptonson (talk) 06:22, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Photos of Trautmann

I've uploded two photos of Trautmann on Wikimedia Commons that I took myself in October 2010. If anyone wants to use them in the article: feel free! See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Bert_Trautmann Jörg Zägel (talk) 20:59, 29 July 2022 (UTC)