Talk:George Gurdjieff

Another suggestion

I don't see a reference to Georgette LeBlanc's work, "La Machine a Courage," which is at : http://www.gurdjieff-bibliography.com/Current/07_leblanc_la_machine_2004-07-02.pdf and discusses her experience of working with G. in Paris. (It might, also, reading between the lines, suggest a kind of ?marriage counseling or a series of "relationship nurturance" sessions with a woman she is said to have been attached to at some levels, possibly as a partner, Margaret Anderson. Both are named in the discussion and the allusions seem to be to something new starting in her life, although they might not be explicitly relational, too.96.233.98.79 (talk) 05:20, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Some suggestions for content

I've just reviewed this page and came up with a number of suggestions for content. I thought I would post them here in a series of bullets -- assuming I can figure out how to make them -- and if editors are cool with it, I think I could put in some work on them next week.

• Fourth Way versus Gurdjieff Work. I don't think the highlighting of the term Fourth Way as opposed to Gurdjieff Work is historically appropriate. Gurdjieff only used that term very early and sources don't mention it after he left Russia. By the time of the talk replicated verbatim by Stanley Nott in "Teachings" which represents the 20s, or the talk "From the Author" in Beelzebub, the term is no longer being used. Nor is the term present in the rest of All and Everything. The term Fourth Way is really better associated with Ouspensky, who made the concept central to his teaching to the end of his life. I propose changing the relevant passage in the topic sentence to "Gurdjieff Work or Fourth Way", and perhaps opening the section on ideas/teachings with a brief paragraph on nomenclature that mentions the different ways Gurdjieff referred to his teaching.

Beautifully said. Aeuio 17:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• Teachings - I have two proposals for this section. First, Gurdjieff is I think as noteworthy for the plurality of his offerings as their content. Gurdjieff brought music, movements, exercises, and methods for group work as well as ideas, and based on memoirs of his students, it's not clear he privileged the ideas above the rest. So I wonder if a category like "The Gurdjieff Work"(?) isn't more appropriate. If desired, a separate "ideas" section could sit next to a section that enumerated the various Gurdjieff materials.
• Components of the work - I would divide the Gurdjieff materials into the following categories: Group Work, Writings, Movements, and Music. Music falls into three broad historical periods, only one of which involves de Hartmann, and I'd be happy to enumerate those in an edit. Movements perhaps fall best into four categories: the Obligatories, the 39, the ethnic dances and the rest, and perhaps each of those warrants a sentence. Writings would list the early writings, pupil notes including "In search", meeting transcripts and talks collected after Gurdjieff's death, and of course the privileged role of All and Everything. Group work, if other editors agree it's worth a header of its own, could list the innovative ways Gurdjieff brought people together: weekends and work periods of intensive labor, group meetings, discussions, performances and elaborate meals. I think he did that innovatively so it's worth including in the entry but other editors may feel differently.
• The ideas themselves - the "teachings" section is a bit of a hodgepodge. I might structure the most salient Gurdjieff ideas into the following small categories: "Sleep, Self-Observation & Self Remembering"; "Struggle, Friction and Effort"; "Groups and Schools"; "Centers and Functions"; "Metaphysics" e.g. law of 3 and 7;, and "Cosmology". I throw it open to the editors if this is a good way to break it down, how long it should be, and how to organize it. I would be happy to write up this copy if I have a chance next week.
• Sourcing the Gurdjieff ideas - I have a recommendation for sourcing. The standard sources are often "In Search of the Miraculous" and "Beelzebub's Tales". However, neither of these is really optimal. While Gurdjieff accepted Ouspensky's book, he was equivocal on many things and it bears a lot of Ouspensky's footprint. Beelzebub on the other hand is literary allegory. I think better sources for the Gurdjieff ideas are collected talks, like the "From the Author" in Beelzebub, the talks in the Third Series, the Orage talk in Stanley Nott's book, the collection "Views from the Real World", and the wartime meetings in "Voices in the Dark". If other editors are interested I can try to source a section on the ideas based primarily on those records of what Gurdjieff actually said.

I would object here with this sourcing. Many accounts of Gurdjieff teaching are from personal lectures which Gurdjieff taught to individual students or groups. His teaching may differ as presented by him from student to student, as he might have altered it to suit a specific group. But Belzeebub's tales was Gurdjieff putting his ideas for the public and everyone in general. It would therefore be a lot more reasonable to use BT as a primary source for Gurdjieff's teaching, and other accounts as back up and for diversity of the teaching. MoonEagle 22:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• Criticism - this seems really written off the cuff. Good sources would be the "Forest Philosophers" article that brought Gurdjieff notoriety in Paris, as well as the media hullaballoo accompanying the death of Katherine Mansfield. James Webb's biography also ends with an exceedingly negative take on Gurdjieff and his students.
• Reception - Gurdjieff's ideas have propagated in a lot of different ways that I think warrant interest. Some things that could be included include the new biographies of Licoln Kirstein, head of the School of American Ballet, and architect Frank Lloyd Wright, both of whom had extensive involvement with Gurdjieff and the work. Authentic or not, the many colorful claims made by people after Gurdjieff who claimed to be in touch with his sources are also part of his legacy, like Collin and Ichazo.
• Last, the history strikes me as out of balance. Gurdjieff as a spy or watching the dervishes are both factual but don't strike me as significant in the broader arc. If we keep it bare-bones I'm not sure they should be in there. If editors are interested in a little more detail, I would add other details instead and would be happy to offer suggestions.

Sorry this is so long, but I just had a rush of ideas on this page for some reason and I hope you like them. Ericbarnhill 16:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Pretty good suggestions - I agree with all of it and I think that it would make a better page. (the first bullet was the best). Aeuio 17:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I started some editing and I thought I'd have more time, but I got to go (I'll continue tomorrow). Sorry to leave the article in this situation - Eric please continue what I started as soon as you can. I deleted some repeated info so that you can add some new ones Aeuio 02:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Make sure that its clear that his teachings were all based around the "spiritual teachings" - he didn't teach sacred dances for the purpose of dancing. MoonEagle 12:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Aeuio, I said next week and I meant it! :) I won't have time to do a worthwhile job with much of this until a week from now. Editors uncomfortable with the floating headings should just cut them for now. MoonEagle, neither I nor any other editor should be having a discussion about Gurdjieff's "purposes", to use your word. This is an encyclopedia talk page not a discussion forum. Our job should be to enumerate what Gurdjieff did as sourced on the historical record not speculate about his purposes. Your vague objection to something that hasn't happened yet makes me nervous. Thanks for contributing and I hope you'll continue to give your opinion as we add some content. Ericbarnhill 19:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, the best I can do is ten minutes here and there so I will leave it till I have more time. Aeuio 19:31, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Eric: I wasn't trying to discuss anything, I was just stating that be very wrong if the Dances or Music are presented independently from the spiritual teachings, as if there wasn't much connection with them. But as you said it's too early to comment on this (but currently that's where your sugggestions lead up to) - anyhow, we'll see when it's written. MoonEagle 00:27, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

My comment to you was inappropriately aggresive. Apologies and I will bow out of posting here until I have the time to think about what I'm writing before posting. Thanks for the feedback and your opinions on the section will be welcome when I add it. Ericbarnhill 00:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi - Somebody mentioned about having a section on 'The G Work' (maybe instead of 'ideas?') - sounds good. What I believe is one of the G work's key *practical* ideas/methods is sensation of the body. This does not seem to be mentioned anywhere in this article or the discussion. It is this emphasis on sensation which i believe distinguishes the G teaching from any other similar 'way'. thanks, cuyocksol. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.172.247 (talk) 15:32, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

The character of Dr Gambit in The Hearing Trumpet by Leonora Carrington is evidently a satire on Gurdjieff. Ali Smith says as much in her introduction to the Penguin Modern classics edition (2005) and I agree with her analysis, having read the novel, and knowing something of Gurdjieff's ideas via the works of Colin Wilson. I have no idea if Carrington ever met Gurdjieff - perhaps Aberth's biography says something about it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Plimfix (talk • contribs) 09:43, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

New content

I added some new content. Have at it. :) Ericbarnhill 18:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I finally fully read this and can surely say that this will turn out a lot better. I'll be back later tonight to edit Gurdjieff article again. Thanks Eric Aeuio 21:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

History

Since we are rewritting here, how about changing the "travelling dated history" to a more general history where it is explained where and when Gurdjieff met different pupils and what happened. That gurdjieff.org source up there is more than enough for this kind of change. I think it be better and more interesting than simply saying where he was and when. MoonEagle 22:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Good point, I expanded a bit - and it already sounds somewhat better and more interesting. Aeuio 11:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

This is looking much better! Verbs should all be the same tense though. I am sorting out my thoughts on the "ideas" section but will notify editors about a draft before any editing. One problem is how much overlap to have with the Fourth Way page. The same question arises for Beelzebub's Tales - how much to put on this page and how much to put on the other page. Ericbarnhill 02:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that here there should be an overview of the info from other main page - such as the Fourth Way. Concerning BT, it's too soon to tell how this will turn out. Aeuio 02:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

O and the page is getting much better!Aeuio 02:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I see these two concerns as related. I think it would be great to have an "ideas" section that references Beelzebub frequently, and leave the Ouspensky quotes more for the other page. I'll try to put that into my draft when I get to it. Ericbarnhill 21:38, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Templates

Ok, we have the artist template (currently in the article) and the philosophy template. Is there anyone that prefers one over the other? Aeuio 12:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

There is Religious leaders as well (not very suitable in my view). The main drawback of the Philosopher template is that you have to assign a region, and only four are available: Eastern, Jewish, Persian and Western. Since this is the top field, it looks odd if you leave that blank. Now Gurdjieff is difficult to assign; his mentions of Nassr Eddin (= Mullah Nasrudin) and Bogga Eddin (= Baha'uddin Naqshband) would suggest Persian (= sufic), but then he is also distinctly Western in his terminology. He mentions Christian sources as much as Indian fakirs etc. So I would be unhappy to see him restricted to any one regional category. To me, that is the main drawback of the Philosopher template; otherwise, it looks ideal. Perhaps we should take it up with the makers of that template? Jayen466 13:11, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The link to the religious leaders template above was wrong, have now fixed it. Jayen466 13:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Jayen, are the mentioned four types of regions "the only ones acceptable on wikipedia"? If not then I have a wierd idea. See MoonEagle. What do you think of the region? Or, we can write something more suitable if there is conflict- you can write anything in there. MoonEagle 20:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

According to the instructions on the template page, those four are the options to be used. They tie in with categories. As you say, you can write anything in there and it will show up on screen, but there won't be a corresponding category. And I still find it difficult to think of something meaningful to put that is not restrictive and squeezes the man into some box he doesn't belong in. It's kind of daft to put something just for the sake of putting something. What attracts me a little about the Philosopher template, on the other hand, is the possibility to enter "Notable ideas" (e.g. self-remembering), and "Main interests". And the use of the Artist template also does not link with any category here. Its only advantage is that you can have the name at the top, without having to invent some contrived category, and that you can list "famous works" -- the Philosopher template does not allow for that. Also, listing famous works is a lot less likely to cause disputes than listing "notable ideas". Cheers, Jayen466 21:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that ME's suggestion is very good and agree to it. esoteric (read first paragraph) would fit pretty well in here. Concerning "notable ideas" I would just put Fourth Way there. While Gurdjieff's books are mentioned at two or three places and is linked throughout the article, so I don't think that it's a big deal whether or no it's in the template. Aeuio 23:29, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I just put the philosophy template up (It could be a lot better - I didn't put much effort or detail in case everyone rejects) What do you think? Aeuio 23:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I've moved him from the age of enlightenment into the 20th century. Hmmm ... am still not convinced by Esoteric Philosophy. :-)) It's just not an established term with an agreed meaning. I like the "influenced by Mullah Nassr Eddin" bit though. :-)) I guess my problem is that I see Gurdjieff as a mystic, not a philosopher. There is a difference. More centres involved. ;-) Jayen466 00:02, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

O, I defiantly agree to mysticism over philosophy, I just wasn't sure if that template is allowed to say mystic instead of philosopher. Is it? Anyhow do you think this template could be made better than the artist one? If so, then I'll upgrade the info in the template to be more accurate and precise. Aeuio 00:54, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

External Links

Ok, we need a new agenda for eternal links. I think the external links arguing wouldn't occur if all the "group links" are not allowed (including the Gurdjieffian Foundations). I think it's understandable that "the Foundation and its affiliates are not the sole representatives of Gurdjieff and his teaching. Wikipedia, which uses an encyclopedic format and therefore by its very format is regarded as “definitive,” creates a de facto situation by listing only Foundation links under the external links section." (the quotations are from a recent email I got concerning the external links). And I guess that we shouldn't be playing a judge here and deciding which groups to mention. The formation of groups is mentioned in "Reception" and anyone if interested would obviously do extra research - so the easiest solution for us here is simply to describe the formation of these mainly known groups in Reception and not to promote any current group in external links. Aeuio 22:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Aeuio, I've been pondering this post for a couple of days. I have not been able to figure out why you have taken the stance you have, but wanted to think about it before questioning you. I just went to the WP external links page [[1]]and found that your decision is perfectly correct! Regards, --Moon Rising 20:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

It had nothing to do with that WP page. If you'd actually believe me when I say that I am not in the Gurdjieffian Foundation it be pretty easy to get why I did that. Back when we were discussing the external links I had no problem of getting rid of all the links, but Yeago suggested to keep the Foundations. It really does seem unfair to the other groups that were also started by Gurdjieff's students. Aeuio 21:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Well then, there are 2 reasons. I think the Gurdjieff Foundations would be appropriate links for this Gurdjieff's article, but they offer no information, which violates WP policies. I personally would not have a problem to have all sorts of 4th way groups linked to the Fourth Way article, (not this one) but again, most of those links would not enhance the article, which is the purpose of links, as I understand them. And I never, ever doubted your statement that you are not part of the G Foundation. --Moon Rising 23:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Seems good to me. I suppose I thought that the Gurdjieff Foundation was started by G himself, not students. Therefore I thought it was a class above student-created groups. Either way this article is a billion times better than it used to be, and way less spammy. Could someone archive the talk page sometime soon?Yeago 05:01, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Love-Ark: I appreciate your help, but your reasons in your edit summary were pretty bad. Not only are they connected to the foundations, but Dushka (the lady that's putting that book together) was a student of Gurdjieff himself. I just wanted to point this out before someone asked you to explain your deletion. Aeuio 21:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I've been firing up Chatzilla and going to #wikipedia at freenode and alerting an admin instantly when someone spams this (and other) pages with their links (notice User:TheFourthWay's indefinite block), rather than waiting days or weeks for an admin to stumble upon them (google wikipedia irc). Its effective.Yeago 03:14, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

There is a link for: * The Teachers of Gurdjieff by Rafael Lefort (probably a pen name of Idries Shah). I removed the comment about "probably a pen name of Indries Shah", because it's unsourced - see the Indries Shah article. It mentions this conjecture, but only as one man's opinion. --Moon Rising (talk) 21:28, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

External links should be either eliminated or include all those who have a direct connection to Gurdjieff - probably it would need a group who would make this decision - not one person - to verify direct lineage and continued fidelity to gurdjieff's school without adulteration from other traditions — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.186.53.202 (talk • contribs) 14:36, 3 February 2011

Both your links added;

• http://.cuctema.ru
• http://.Gurdjieffclub.ru

Fails our External links policy for inclusion. Editors make the policies here at Wikipedia, and have established community agreed upon policies which govern any contents basis for inclusion. However an upsetting pattern has appeared;

194.186.188.203 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
89.169.34.23 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
194.186.53.202 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
194.186.53.79 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

Understand that Repeatedy re- adding and adding links to multiple Articles is unacceptable. This kind of activity is considered spamming and is Also forbidden by Wikipedia policies.--Hu12 (talk) 16:20, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Gurdjieff and Politics

The article seems to imlicitly deny that Gurdjieff was a Tsarist spy, and it might be right, but I think it should be mentioned that his disciple Bennet thought that he was involved in espionage in some way; and Bennet can be presumed to be cluey about these things. Gurdjieff in Meetings for Remarkable Men refers to carrying letters for underground groups and the like.

Bennet also more than other disciples emphasised the political, social side of Gurdjieff's work. However heretical this may be to some it was clearly there, and referred to in the most direct terms in his postscript to Beelzebub's Tales. Bennet compared the Gurdjieff groups to mammals in the age of dinosaurs. He is sometimes reminiscent of the ur-anarchist Proudhon (even down to the sympathy for the tile) Jeremytrewindixon 05:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Definitely an interesting direction. Do you have any sources?Yeago 14:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome to expand the article on this subject Jeremy. Aeuio 14:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

What, explicitly, were Gurdjieff's political affiliations, positions, views? Or did he even have a political philosophy? Shanoman (talk) 18:52, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Didn't have one. Only driven statement by Gurdjieff concerning politics is that the worst kind of people are in power... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vitalask (talk • contribs) 03:03, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

How does everyone feel about that last edit? (removal of list of books and dvds)

Eh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yeago (talk • contribs) 06:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Page looks clearer to me. Aeuio 15:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:02, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Pupils section

I am wondering if this article needs a Pupils section. Gurdjieff seems to have had a lot of direct pupils, some of noteriety. How should we deal with them?

The latest addition of the Finnish Psychologist is probably not noteworthy but still an interesting inclusion as an item in a list.

Of course, there are all those book-publishing pupils who are dying to get their name in his article. What to do?Yeago (talk) 05:24, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I created a starter page in my namespace. Please add notable pupils to User:Yeago/List of Gurdjieff pupils —Preceding comment was added at 05:30, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Criticism section

I've recently read the last chapter in James Webb's biography "The Harmonious Circle", titled of masters and men where he sums up Alan Watts' criticism of guru-organizations. I think this is a very good criticism of the Gurdjieff work and Gurdjieffs projects and it also includes the current argument under the criticism section. I do not now to which extent this book is available among you - but if some of you could read this section and see if you agree with me? Could a summary of the main points here (1, 2 and 3) be a good thing for the article? Or maybe it should be sorted under the fourth way article? --PeterKristo (talk) 11:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The 3rd paragraph under "Responses" states that "Critics note Gurdjieff gives no value to most of the elements that comprise the life of an average man." Wouldn't many of his students and admirers agree? If others agree, the word "critics" should be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.166.173 (talk) 13:22, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Nasreddin as Gurdjieff's teacher?

Hello there. I've been doing extensive work to Life Is Real Only Then, When 'I Am'. I came across a few interesting passages. Among them is a quote by Gurdjieff where he says "...in the style of my former teacher, now almost a Saint, Mullah Nassr Eddin...". There are a number of ways this sentance could be read, some forgiving or apologistic of the idea that Gurdjieff claims to have been taught by Mullah Nassr Eddin, but I read it literally.

Is there another 'Mullah Nassr Eddin' that was alive in the 19th century? Was the historicity of 'Mullah Nassr Eddin' unclearly unknown in the 19th century?

Thanks. Also, I invite anyone who is interested to come help me work on the Life Is Real... article.Yeago (talk) 16:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe that he meant it literally; more along the lines as if he was taught by Mullah Nassr Eddin's wise sayings. There's probably some symbolic meaning to the referral to Mullah Nassr Eddin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benzema (talk • contribs) 16:06, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

"Some symbolic meaning..."—rather vague. He says both 'my former teacher, now almost a Saint...' and I really don't think there can be any explaining away these two contemporary references to the Mullah. Anyone else?Yeago (talk) 20:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The statement matches the statements made in *Beelzebub*, ex. '...now almost an archangel...', and Nasreddin is a somewhat mythical figure to whom conventional wisdom is ascribed. I doubt it is intended to be interpreted as him actually knowing the guy. 108.83.178.154 (talk) 02:42, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Haha, this is kindof consistent with the opinion that Gurdjieff was just kidding people. He is probably laughing in his grave about people still taking him seriously. Ok, even if you dont agree, I assure you that he could have called Nasreddin a teacher only in a comic way.

Waiting for some elaboration on the punchline's meaning, oh wise one.Yeago (talk) 07:05, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

By this I mean this greater notion you espouse, 'the opinion that gurdjieff was just kidding people'. If its a legitimate perspective, it belongs here.Yeago (talk) 07:06, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think this comes very close to the heart of the question of what exactly Gurdjiev represents. It seems to me that he was indeed kidding people, but all the while trying to teach some point. Same as Nasreddin. What I never understood, though, what that point might be exactly. Maybe both of them were really just trying to wake up people from the everyday complacency. Kotika98 (talk) 11:07, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Cruithne must be worth mentioning?

Hi all. In Beelzebub, Gurdjieff mentions Earth's second moon, that it IS there, that scientists currently do not know about it. That was in the 1930's. Some 70 years later modern science found this moon, now called Cruithne. Knowledge of this moon via the science at the time was impossible, so this seems to me to be the best evidence that Gurdjieff wasn't just a mystic or charleton. Everything else can be dismissed by scientists as pseodoscience or worse, but not Cruithne. So surely it is worth mentioning? Or have I missed something obvious, if so sorry and you can delete this post :) blucat david 6:00am, 8 June 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.142.12.109 (talk) 19:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Page numbers? Quotes?Yeago (talk) 01:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem with Cruithne is connecting it to Gurdjieff via some sort of publication. If you know of a place where an author has suggested this connection, then you can add it to the article as "So and so has suggested that Cruithne is the second moon that Gurdjieff was talking about" ; or something along those lines. Or even better would be if you know a place where Gurdjieff was documented as describing the second moon in a way which could be linked to Cruithne. Otherwise, Cruithne shouldn't be mentioned as another editor could very well say that 2002 AA29 is the second moon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benzema (talk • contribs) 16:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

From the Cruithne page: "Due to its unusual orbit relative to that of the Earth, it is a periodic inclusion planetoid and is sometimes called Earth's second moon,[2] although it orbits the Sun, not the Earth." So its not a moon, but what is the point here anyway? Are you saying Gurdjieff knew about Cruithne via some other means? Or should we think that its existence was communicated to him by God? Or maybe he didnt know about it specifically, but meant it metaphorically, as in keep looking and you might find something important even if its not what your expected. Since he consdiders Nasreddin his teacher, i am inclined to think the latter. Kotika98 (talk) 10:13, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Umm, I thought it was pretty well wrapped up by the excellent reply by Benzema. But just to try to address your comments: No, GIG specifically said that his teachings weren't 'communicated to him by God', but were handed down through thousands of years through underground sources, which he was smart and lucky and dilligent enough to find. So yes, he did know about it by other means. Also, it wasn't in the least bit metaphorical, as there is a chapter in "Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson' titled, "Earths Second Moon', in which he says there is a 'Second Moon', but it is not known to current science because their telescopes are not powerful enough to find it, and tales of it were not handed down to them in their 'bedtime stories', and due to it's unusual orbit and small size it is unlikely that they will ever know about it. Anyway, now that we've found 2002 AA29, I withdraw my specific comment about Cruithne as it seems to be a lesser candidate for the 'second moon', and we are likely to find more such objects as well. blucat - david

Original research, sorry people.Yeago (talk) 02:37, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

His origins.

Re Gurdjeff's origins: have a look at affined bibliography (such as here or The Gurdjieff Foundation) before deleting stuff.

Karnak, please join the discussion. This is a point of common confusion and edit-warring doesn't help.Yeago (talk) 15:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

A few quotes taken from Gurdjieff's book Meetings with Remarkable Men (Arkana, 1960. ISBN 0140190376) regarding his origins:

• My father came of a Greek family whose ancestors had emigrated from Byzantium, having left their country to escape the persecution by the Turks which followed their conquest of Constantinople. (p.40)

• Having settled in Kars, my father first sent me to the Greek school, but very soon transferred me to the Russian municipal school. (p.42)

• In Alexandropol I had a friend named Fatinov. He had a friend, Gorbakoun, the son of a company commander in the Baku regiment, which was stationed not far from the Greek quarter. [where obviously G. lived] (p.63)

• It should be mentioned that from the age of eight, owing to chance circumstances, my friends in Alexandropol as well as in Kars were much older than I and belonged to families who were considered socially higher than mine. In the Greek part of Alexandropol, where my parents formerly lived, I had no friends at all. (p.66) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.103.147.54 (talk) 17:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the citations. Karnak, who was reverting the above content, blanked invitations on his talk page to join this discussion, which leaves little choice other than outright strongarm/revert until he wants to discuss his editorial reasoning.Yeago (talk) 00:33, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Biographical material from Moore

I suggest we should gently and judiciously rephrase parts of the biography; at present, some passages lean too closely on Moore's chronology (merely substituting past tense for historical present). Jayen466 00:02, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Really? Terrific. Then simply blockquote him. If you see material that constitutes as a source, please tag it as such. It would not be so much copyvio as merely misleading to present the perspective of one biographer as encyclopaedic.Yeago (talk) 01:18, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

The source is here; the content of that page is a straight lift from the Chronology in Moore's book. I've done a little bit of rewording in the para that bore the greatest resemblance to Moore, hopefully without doing harm to its readability. I guess we could add citations to Moore's book. Cheers, Jayen466 01:42, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

The plain fact is that its not a copywrite vio if its sourced. Lifting the material and putting it here without a source is just journalistically irresponsible. Anyway, thanks for noticing and doing the legwork.Yeago (talk) 05:28, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Addition of links

This article is about a mystic named G.I. Gurdjieff. All content in this article must be notably related to him. All links must be directly related to him, as there are too many derivatives to chronicle here. Without a clear boundary, all claimants of the Gurdjieff Tradition have a causeway to place their links here (and there are MANY).

This is one of the most linkspammed articles I watch. While I cannot say that your sources are non-notable and don't belong on Wikipedia, I can say that 95% of links added here are not notable to G.I. Gurdjieff and do not belong in his specific article. Please feel free to create separate topical articles that meet regular WP guidelines and add those links there.Yeago (talk) 09:34, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Paneurhythmy/Bogomilism etc.

These references should be removed. They are sourced, but the source contains no information about them. It is a brochure for some new-age conference that definitely doesn't mention Gurdjieff and doesn't seem to mention Paneurhythmy either. I'd add personally that I've looked at paneurhythmy videos on YouTube and they look nothing whatsoever like Gurdjieff movements. These references should be removed for irrelevancy. Ericbarnhill (talk) 00:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. Do it.Yeago (talk) 00:18, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Did it. I also rearranged some of the information in "groups". Ravindra is in the line of Gurdjieff pupils and affiliated with the Foundations, while Patterson had very limited study at the Fdn and founded a breakaway group. So, I didn't think they should be in the same paragraph. Ravindra is in with the Fdns and Patterson is in with the independents. Ericbarnhill (talk) 11:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Greek Name

Whats the source for the greek name? Did Gurdjieff ever use this name himself? Ii find this translation of his name to greek as "Georgiadis" abit improbable. Kotika98 (talk) 09:18, 22 February 2009 (UTC) Added: Somewhere the article should mention that the name Gurdjieff may not, and most likely not his birth name. If thats the case, Georgiadis sounds more plausible, as it is an actually common name from the region. Any expert opinions? Kotika98 (talk) 15:00, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

It may just be that some Wikipedia editor has seen that he was of partial Greek descent and thought that alone justifies having his name rendered in Greek. I don't know how common it was for Greeks in the interior of the Caucasus region to still use Greek in everyday usage, or whether Greek names were used in birth certificates, baptisms, school registers, etc. There was a Greek book published - in the 1990s (I think) - about the Greek community in Kars which might contain such information. Meowy 14:17, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

The question is not whether Greek was used by Greeks in the region, but whether "Georgiadis" is authentic or not. If that were the name by which he was known in modern greece, then the name would not be wrong but it would not be useful to include it on the english page. If that were his name at birth, we should include it and emphasize the fact. However, I have checked that the greek language article says "Γεώργιος Γκουρτζίεφ", so i will delete the greek as well as armenian spellings. Kotika98 (talk) 16:21, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Useful source

• Islam in Inter-War Europe. By Nathalie Clayer, Eric Germain (2008), Columbia University Press, pp. 207ff. Jayen466 22:11, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much.Yeago (talk) 07:16, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

George or Georges?

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but I thought his name was usually given in English as "Georges" rather than "George". What are the reasons for using "George" in this article? Thanks. Afterwriting (talk) 16:57, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Publications in English normally use "G. I.," but when written out, his own books and virtually all other use "George." --Dorje714285 (talk) 19:04, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Music

Not enough is mentioned about his music. Some expert guidance is needed on the issue of whether it is his music, or one should consider Hartmann as the true composer of this pieces. In any case, unlike occult philosophies, the music is actually good - in recent years a string of notable performers have recorded the music. Jarrett, Tsabropoulos/Lehner and Cecyl Lyttle recordings are all works of sublime beauty. Kotika98 (talk) 18:00, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Group work/drug abuse

The section supposedly about group work, is an endless rant about how various people, most of them unrelated to Gurdjieff abused LSD - a drug invented long after Gurdjieff death in 1949. This situation invites quick deletion, unless some rationale is forthcoming. AFAIK, Guerdjieff himself nor his groups were never known for drug abuse. Kotika98 (talk) 18:01, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

[I am unskilled at finding, if possible, the history of deleted passages. I will now simply point out that the reference to the dates of synthesis of LSD are grossly inaccurate, an error that makes me question the competence of the writer. The wikipedia article documents the dates of its history, first synthesized in 1938, properties stumbled upon 1943, released as a drug for use in psychotherapy 1947. This at least makes it possible for it to be investigated before G died. Wiki mn (talk) 05:13, 29 December 2017 (UTC)]

I totally agree with this view. A lot has been thrown into this article that is peripheral at best. The material on Huxley is not even factual, much less relevant. (He was not introduced to mescaline by Crowley -- refer to book "Moksha" for this.) More to the point, Crowley is not even relevant enough for a footnote here, much less a section of the article. That represents someone's very biased interest in something besides the topic. (User: Dorje714285 -- my first post; will work on my formatting] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorje714285 (talk • contribs) 18:55, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I deleted the section "group work". The point of that section is that Gurdjieff emphasized groups rather than individual methods. This should be covered in the article Fourth Way, it doesn't even belong here. More importantly however from what I can see is that that section was there only to make Gurdjieff and his groups look like drug abusers. And it's filled with false statements. If you have a source for supporting that nonsense then add it to the criticism section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vitalask (talk • contribs) 15:10, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

John G. Bennett

Excuse this posting- it's not quite on topic here but this is the best place I could think of adding this notice. The lengthy biography of John G. Bennett, who wrote several book on Gurdjieff, was almost entirely copied from other websites and so it had to be cut down to a stub. Perhaps someone watching this page would be interested in writing a fresh biography.   Will Beback  talk  18:41, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

enneagram

What is the source for:

An aspect of Gurdjieff's teachings which has come into prominence in recent decades is the enneagram geometric figure. For many students of the Gurdjieff tradition, the enneagram remains a "koan", challenging and never fully explicated. Lord Pentland only allowed very limited use of the figure. There have been many attempts to trace the origins of the enneagram; some similarities to other figures have been found, but it seems that Gurdjieff was the first person to make the enneagram figure publicly known and that only he knew its true source.[citation needed]

Lord Pentland only allowed very limited use of the figure is particularly obscure William M. Connolley (talk) 17:54, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Great Job

Fairly good article on a very complex subject. Congratulations to all involved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.208.24.98 (talk) 16:13, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

meaning in juxtaposed sentences?

"In 1919, Gurdjieff established his first Institute for the Harmonious Development of Man. He was thought[by whom?] to be greatly influenced by Niko Marr, a Georgian archaeologist and historian.[citation needed]"

Was GIG influenced in the setting up and/or the naming of the institute by Niko Marr?

Or is this just poor layout or bad editting - an unsourced claim, misplaced and productive of confusion? 124.148.164.7 (talk) 02:18, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

"Niko Marr" will be Nikolai Marr. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.64.242.27 (talk) 03:01, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Criticism section: renamed

The "Criticism" section consists mainly of peoples recorded "Responses" to Gurdjieff and his teachings and writings. There is little actual criticism. To move WP towards accuracy I have renamed the section. If you change it back pls remove all the "non-Criticism" material from the section first. Or at least provide a rationale for misleading readers. 124.148.164.7 (talk) 04:08, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Gurdjieff the Christian?

Perhaps there is a case to be made for some Christian categories for Gurdjieff? Gurdjieff had a complex but generally congenial relationship to Eastern Orthodox Christianity, having been raised in it and mentored by some Fathers he profoundly respected, and his funeral was Russian Orthodox. The book Meetings with Remarkable Men offers useful information on this; therein, he gives Jesus the highest praise. Gurdjieff always carried a well-read copy of the New Testament in Koine Greek. It can be argued that his Fourth Way was somehow a way of communicating the spirit of those teachings to people in the west that would have none of its externals. 74.133.104.185 (talk) 22:22, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Gurdjieff: "Inner morality is your aim. Your aim is to be Christian; but for that you must be able to do - and you cannot. When you are able to do, you will become Christian." From talk given on 1 March 1924. See Views From the Real World. Early Talks of Gurdjieff. --Londonlinks (talk) 13:46, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Life Is Real Only Then, When 'I Am'#Consensus check

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Life Is Real Only Then, When 'I Am'#Consensus check. Tom Ruen (talk) 00:29, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Svetlana Hinzenberg

§ Children had the following at the bottom, after the bulleted list:

Clarification: Svetlana Hinzenberg – b. Sept. 27, 1917, d. Sept. 30, 1946 Mother: Olga (Olgivanna) Ianovna Lazovich, Father (of Record): Valdemar Hinzenberg. "In the winter of 1919, humoring a friend, she (Olgivanna) left her apartment to see a visiting Armenian-born mystic, a man who was said to teach dances that could develop the will. She was, she recalled, "looking for something beyond the limits of my senses." Friedland & Zellman: "The Fellowship: The Untold Story of Frank Lloyd Wright & The Taliesin Fellowship." HarperCollins, 2006. page 18, citing OLW, Autobiography.

Obviously this belongs in a reference, not the main text, and I've moved it to one, but I can't check it in the source. And the cited grand-source, "OLW, Autobiography", only makes sense as a typo for "FLW, Autobiography"; that would be An autobiography: Frank Lloyd Wright, originally published in 1932 by Longmans, Green and Company (Worldcat). --Thnidu (talk) 23:05, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

@Thnidu The year of Svetlana's birth, 1917, is two years before her mother met Gurdjieff, precluding the possibility of her being a child of Gurdjieff. Also the fact that she remained with her father Hinzenberg when Olga left them. Blainster (talk) 05:47, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

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Multiple issues tag

The article had a multiple issues tag, the tag claiming content "may rely excessively on sources too closely associated with the subject" and "may be written from a fan's point of view". However, there is no associated discussion on this talk page that would explain what content this tag concerns. If editors are not told of what problems might exist with the article, how are those problems meant to be addressed? Also, there does there seem to be any recent talk page discussion that indicates a problem that would justify the article being tagged in this way. For that reason, I find the tag to be not productive or justifiable, and I have deleted it. If another editor wants to restore the tagging, would they explain exactly what content issues support the tagging. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:52, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Just use more secondary sources.FourLights (talk) 00:07, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

composer

I have no knowledge of Gurdjieff being an influential composer, as stated in the introduction. He was a composer, but I don't know that he was influential in it. I had added a source saying he was influential in the other things, but my source says nothing about him being an influential composer. Therefore I removed composer. But someone has added it back.FourLights (talk) 22:47, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

"it is believed that he had seven known children"

Surely the combination "it is believed that" and "known" is contradictory. If they were "known" children, "it is believed that" is superfluous - but if it is only "believed that" he had them, then they weren't "known" for certain.213.127.210.95 (talk) 14:50, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

@213.127.210.95 You are correct. The article clearly states that the supposed children are unverified. For example, the first one listed as "known" cannot be Gurdjieff's child: The year of Svetlana's birth, 1917, is two years before her mother met Gurdjieff, precluding the possibility of her being a child of Gurdjieff. Also the fact that she remained with her father Hinzenberg when Olga left them Blainster (talk) 05:52, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

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Circular Redirect

When the page for the book Life Is Real Only Then, When 'I Am' was deleted the link was turned into a redirect to a section of this article. The link within this section was a redirect to itself, which was not only useless, but confusing. This link has been removed ("de-linkified"), and the redirect target is supported by an Anchor template.
It would be better IMHO if there was a page to support this book, but as noted, it has been previously deleted.
XyKyWyKy aka raffriff42 (talk) 13:53, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Esoteric Christianity

One thing Gurdjieff said is that his ideas could be thought of as "esoteric Christianity". Could this page be added to the category called "Esoteric Christianity"? Vorbee (talk) 16:35, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

The reference to Gurdjieff labelling his teaching as esoteric Christianity is on page 110 from In Search of the Miraculous.He is also quoted in Views from The Real World (meeting New York 1/3/1924) as saying "Your aim is to be Christian, but for that you must be able to do - and you cannot. When you are able to do, you will become Christian." Whether there should be a separate section on Christianity is worth considering. Perhaps one should first collect the various references on this talk page and then publish? Londonlinks (talk) 14:34, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Contemporary lead sentence

Influential in humanities search for understanding self-knowledge (today).cited and referenced.Arnlodg (talk) 17:50, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Referenced "The Gurdjieff Foundation New York" to lead; Arnlodg (talk) 23:54, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Müller?

I'm not seeing where in the citation given that Gurdjieff was influenced by Müller, but that Gurdjieff's student Ouspensky was.

Quote from source: "P. D. Ouspensky, a Russian former Theosophist and follower of the Greco-Armenian thaumaturge G. I. Gurdjieff, was inspired by Müller's lectures on theosophy in the formulation of his own mystical system."

The commas would indicate that the sentence means Ouspensky was both:
-"a Russian former Theosophist and follower of the Greco-Armenian thaumaturge G. I. Gurdjieff,"
-"...inspired by Müller's lectures on theosophy in the formulation of his own mystical system."

I'll be removing that bit from the "influences" section. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:47, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

The "Russian" question revisited

Whether Gurdjieff should be referred to as Russian has been brought up on here before but I think it needs more clarification in the article. While it is true that many sources refer to Gurdjieff as being Russian, in my view this is misleading even if, arguably, this was technically correct at the time of his birth (but it wouldn't be now). The extent to which Gurdjieff can be considered "Russian" is questionable as, both culturally and ethnically, he was mostly Armenian and in my opinion he is more correctly an Armenian than a Russian. I strongly suggest that this needs to be more adequately clarified in the article. As with articles on some other people whose nationality is complicated for historical and personal reasons, I suggest that his nationality is not mentioned in the opening sentence but the issues regarding this are mentioned further on in the article. Ontologicos (talk) 18:19, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Can we get a conversation going on how Gurdjieff's last name is pronounced?

...and if there is a consensus of opinion, add that to the first paragraph using plain English, dividing the name into syllables and using an accent mark to put emphasis on the dominant syllable? Most Americans familiar with the name say "Gur-jeff," and I don't think that's quite right. It looks like three syllables to me. But I will go with the consensus. Thanks. 2600:8801:BE24:1A00:2D1A:5328:950:E44B (talk) 02:11, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

@2600:8801:BE24:1A00:2D1A:5328:950:E44B I have always heard it pronounced Grrr-gee-eff (with1st syllable accented). Blainster (talk) 02:31, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

(which is also how the IPA pronunciation has it) Blainster (talk) 02:32, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Mother of Gurdjieff

I looked at biographies of Gurdjieff, and apparently recent archival research indicates that his mother was Greek as well.

From Classical Spirituality in Contemporary America: The Confluence and Contribution of G.I. Gurdjieff and Sufism (2012) by Michael Pittman:

• p. 223: Though the long-held view is that Gurdjieff's mother was Armenian, Paul Taylor, on the basis of recent research, offers that Gurdjieff's mother's father was Greek (Taylor 2008).

From Deconstructing Gurdjieff: Biography of a Spiritual Magician (2017) by Tobias Churton:

• pp. 19–25: Archival Records: [...] One thing we can be reasonably certain of is that both Gurdjieff's parents were Greek. His mother's maiden name comes from the Greek Elephtheros, referring perhaps to the Greek Orthodox saint and martyr of this name as well as the ancient Greek word for freedom: a dangerous surname to have in Turkey in the wake of the bloody 1866–69 Cretan revolt against Turkish rule. Gurdjieff's mother's father Elepheriadis (Greek again) was married to Sophia, whose name was obviously Greek but who was nicknamed in her capacity as midwife padji, Turkish for "sister," a clue as to her birthplace. [...] It is quite possible that Ivan met the Greek Evdokia in Alexandropol's substantial Greek quarter, known as Urmonts, which is recorded as having 363 households during the period when Gurdjieff's cousin, the sculptor Sergei Merkurov's grandfather built a house in Alexandropol (sometime between 1858 and 1869; accounts differ). Merkurov's family was among a hundred other Greek families who migrated from western Armenia (far-east Turkey), specifically the Vilayet of Trebizond in the period before the Russo-Turkish war of 1877–78. Grandfather Merkurov, an architect, would build Alexandropol's Greek Orthodox church, dedicated to Saint George (destroyed by earthquake in 1926).

From Gurdjieff Reconsidered: The Life, the Teachings, the Legacy (2019) by Roger Lipsey:

• p. 11: In his major book, Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson (which developed across multiple languages from the mid-1920s through to its English-language publication in 1950), Gurdjieff was ferociously satirical where ancient Greek culture was concerned—though he was born to Greek parents and spoke Greek from his earliest days (as well as Armenian, and soon Russian and Turkish).¹⁵
• p. 316: 15. It will come as a surprise to readers familiar with the Gurdjieff legacy that both of his parents were Greek; the assumption has long been that his mother, Evdokia, was Armenian.

From G.I.Gurdjieff: A Life (2020) by Paul Beekman Taylor:

• pp. 13–14: Alexandropol records have Ivan's wife as Evdokia Elepterovna, but on Ivan's death announcement, 25 June 1918, her name is given as M[unreadable] Kalerovna. The patronymic Kalerovna is given to Evdokia also on an 1885 document, and the French death notice of Gurdjieff's mother has "Evdoki Kaleroff" as her name, but I find the name Kaler only in Tyrol records from the fifteenth century. I am tempted to believe that Kaler reflects the Greek kalos "good, beautiful." The given and surnames of Gurdjieff's mother have semantic convergences, since Greek kalos "good" is compatible in meaning with Greek Eudoxia "Woman of Good Reputation." Since married women take their husband's family name almost always, I wonder why she was not identified as Evdokia Gurdjieff, as Gurdjieff's wife was identified on her travel documents. In a Church Slavonic register, Ivan and his wife are identified as Orthodox Christians. Gurdjieff's grandmother on his mother's side, Sophia, nicknamed Padji ("sister" in Turkish) was a well-regarded midwife who did not speak a word of Russian. His grandfather on his mother's side was Elepheriadis, a distinctly Greek form. Though Evdokia was thought by many to be Armenian, her name, Евдокия, is a Cyrillic form of Greek Eudoxia ("good thought"). The French form of the name on her death certificate is Eudoxie. Gurdjieff, who gave his mother's name to his youngest daughter, pronounced it in Russian fashion Yevdokeeya with stress on the penultimate syllable. If it seems odd that an Armenian woman would carry a Greek name, it is apparent that that Gurdjieff's mother was Greek as well as his father, confirming Gurdjieff's frequent assertion that his mother tongue was Greek. Gurdjieff's German papers, which he carried during the Second World War, identified him as Greek.
• p. 270: At the age of twenty-three, in 1871, when he was twenty-four years of age, Gurdjieff's father, Ivan, married eighteen-year old Evdokia Eleptherovna (b. 1852), the daughter of a Greek merchant Elepther Eleptherov, Elepheriadis in its Greek form.

Every source that i read, describing Gurdjieff's mother as Armenian, does so in passing; thus, per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS and WP:AGE MATTERS, i believe an update is in order. Are there any other, more in-depth sources on the topic, that contradict the above? Demetrios1993 (talk) 03:04, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I went ahead and updated the article, per what was presented above, concerning his mother. In addition, i removed Gurdjieff's ethnicity and birthplace from the lead (per MOS:CONTEXTBIO), as well as from the short description. Furthermore, i removed the following sentence from § Early years:

Greek-Georgian were also very common combinations in Kars Oblast and Georgia under Tsarist rule, which is also a possible root of his surname, as Muslims around Georgia call the Georgian people "Gurdji" (with Russified ending -eff).

Though the claim is not really wrong, there are some issues. First of all, out of the two references that are given, one failed verification, and is traced back to a false quote added by a sockmaster (diff), that was later used by another editor to expand the text (diff); the second source mirrors Wikipedia content and cannot be used, per WP:CIRCULAR. The surname is actually a little more complicated than what was presented above, and could be better explained in a note, but i don't have time to do it now. Last, i did some additional minor cleanup, and also changed the image in the infobox. Demetrios1993 (talk) 03:24, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

1-8-23 Can this nonsense about Gurdjieff's mother being Greek be deleted? The "long-held view" that Gurdjieff's mother was Armenian goes back to when he was born. Firstly, his mother was not called Evdokia but Yeva - the Armenian name for Eve. Secondly, he was not 24 years old in 1871 according to the biographies you have quoted - which would mean that he was born in 1847 - and since he died in 1949 that would mean he died at 102. Gurdjieff said that his father was Greek but didn't say that his parents were. Gurdjieff's cousin Sergey Merkurov is said by Wikipedia to be a Greek Armenian and nobody has suggested otherwise. Gurdjieff's relatives are still alive, such as Margarita Gurdjieff in France - you can refer to her. If you wish to refer to a book then read Our Life with Mr Gurdjieff written by Olga and Thomas de Hartmann where it is again confirmed on page 15 that Gurdjieff's mother was Armenian. Olga carefully prepared the book for publication and was Gurdjieff's personal secretary. Any why delete Gurdjieff's birthplace which was in Gyumri Armenia? It might be due to your Greek name? If this edit is not in its correct place then please move it but you have now been given some in-depth sources on the topic and should revert the changes to refer to the fact - long established and confirmed - that Gurdjieff's mother was Armenian. Londonlinks (talk) 22:15, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Londonlinks, i do appreciate your comment, but the claim about Gurdjieff's mother being Greek is supported by a number of recent reliable sources, and is based on archival research; it's not a claim made in passing, without any substantiation. Indeed, Gurdjieff said that his father was Greek, and even wrote that his family was originally from the area around Constantinople, and migrated to central Anatolia following the events of 1453; later they would move to Georgia, and then Armenia. The real question is whether he wrote anything about his mother's background? Now, regarding her name, there are a number of archival records attesting multiple versions of it; i haven't seen any that used Yeva. Do you have any sources for that claim? Having said that, since she lived in a multiethnic environment, such as Alexandropol (present-day Gyumri) at the time, i wouldn't find it strange if she was also known as Yeva, but that doesn't really tell us anything about her native name, or even her origin. An actual attested version of her name is Евдокия, which is essentially the Greek Ευδοκία in Cyrillic script, not the Armenian Yeva. Furthermore, Gurdjieff gave his mother's name to his youngest daughter, and pronounced it in Russian as Yevdokeeya. On top of that, Evdokia died in France, and the name on her death certificate is Eudoxie, which is the French variant of the Greek name. Second, regarding your sentence about the age of 24 and 1871, you are confused; the quote is referring to Gurdjieff's father, Ivan (Ιωάννης), who actually died in 1918, not in 1949. Thanks for referring me to the book Our life with Mr. Gurdjieff (1964); i am already aware of it and have full access. Actually, what you are saying is on page XV (not 15 proper). That book was published in 1964, and the fact that Olga de Hartmann was Gurdjieff's personal secretary for many years, doesn't really mean she was an expert in his background; the claim is made in passing, and on the very same page we read that they aren't even certain of Gurdjieff's date and place of birth. As already mentioned in my original comment above, there are a number of 20th century sources that describe Gurdjieff's mother as Armenian, but they likewise do so in passing, without any actual details. The sources i shared were all published after 2010, and again, what they write is based on recent archival research, to which earlier authors didn't have access to. I am not aware of Margarita Gurdjieff, and i don't know how to contact her; but regardless, i don't think there is anything additional to learn from her, which isn't already published. I am aware of other relatives of his though, such as George Kiourtzidis, the great-grandson of Gurdjieff's uncle Vasilii, whose essential information about the family line of Gurdjieff is included in G.I.Gurdjieff: A Life (2020); along with other valuable information. Lastly, i didn't remove his birthplace from the article; it's still there. Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:38, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Demetrios1993 You are trying to prove your view by relying upon biographical authors who were not even alive when Gurdjieff was alive and who themselves have not provided any citation of authority for their own views. Your source for saying that Gurdjieff's mother was Greek is based purely on the speculations of a couple of authors who had no connection with Gurdjieff or his work. You refer to his mother's death certificate but provide no evidence of it other than speculation. None of the people who were actually living with Gurdjjeff or who were his direct pupils have ever said that G's mother was Greek! Olga de Hartmann who was Gurdjieff's personal secretary lived with Gurdjieff's mother at the Prieure in France as did others and all say that his mother was Armenian! They would surely know whether his mother was Greek and would have said so. Gurdjieff himself could have easily said that his mother was Greek as well as his father but did not do so. He also had an Armenian passport issued to him, rather than a Greek passport. Your reference to G's father and his Greek origins is correct, but trying make Gurdjieff's mother a Greek after 100 years because you happen to be Greek is not acceptable or correct. The citation I have given you from Olga de Hartmann's book which is her direct account of living with Gurdjieff and along with his mother needs to be respected and not simply ignored just because it doesn't fit into your theory. I will provide further citations to you and then see what your attitude is - but if you wish to rely upon unfounded speculation from a couple of modern day authors who describe Gurdjieff as a magician etc then I will move to delete your edit from Wikipedia as being nonsensical. Londonlinks (talk) 07:57, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Demetrios1993 You state that every source you have read only states "in passing" that G's mother was Armenian. G's nephew Valentin Anastasieff who survived a massacre of Armenians which killed his mother Anna (G's sister) asked John G Bennett after G's death to write the preface to G's 3rd book "Life is Real Only Then, When I am". It was written with the assistance of Valentin: [2]

Page 5: "Armenian was G's mother tongue." Page 7: "the family were terrified of the Armenian massacres." Page 8: "G spoke Armenian with his mother." More citations will follow. Let me know your thoughts, but if Armenian was G's mother tongue then she can hardly have been Greek. Londonlinks (talk) 09:47, 2 August 2023 (UTC) Londonlinks (talk) 14:26, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

As you happened to mention George Kiourtzidis, although it is now rather academic since we have reached a consensus, you will note from his own book that he refers to Gurdjieff as being half Armenian. You also ask about whether there is a document stating that his mother was called Yeva and I have provided a link to the 1907 Family List showing her name as Yeva. However, I agree that this name could be written as Eudoxia in Greek, just as it could equally be Eva in English. It wouldn't however alter the ethnicity of the person. Londonlinks (talk) 15:11, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I am not trying to prove anything User:Londonlinks; that's not our job as editors. You are mistaken again. The authors are all academics, and particularly Paul Beekman Taylor, who is the author of G.I.Gurdjieff: A Life (2020), lived at the Prieuré, and studied with Gurdjieff; he is 92 years old, and he was in his circle along with his mother and sister Eve. He also supports the Greek origin of his mother. Furthermore, speculations are conjectures without evidence; in this case, the authors studied the available archival records that were not accessible to previous authors, and came to their conclusions. Our job as editors is to summarize them. I mentioned his mother's death certificate – among other things – because you touched upon her first name, saying it was Yeva; though, personally i do not recall reading this anywhere. Also, the fact that he didn't write about his mother's Greek ancestry doesn't enhance your argument; likewise, he also didn't write anything about an Armenian ancestry. Also, why would Gurdjieff have a Greek passport? He was never a citizen of Greece. Having an Armenian passport doesn't mean that his mother was ethnically Armenian. But since we are discussing about identity documents, Gurdjieff's German papers, which he carried during the Second World War, identified him as a Greek; not Greek-Armenian or Armenian. Authors who describe Gurdjieff as a magician? You probably haven't read Churton's (2017) book, yet you are judging it because it includes spiritual magician as part of its title. With that kind of superficial rationale, we should also dismiss Gurdjieff's own work, The Struggle of the Magicians (1914). User:Londonlinks, just because his sister was killed by the Turks, it doesn't mean it was due to an Armenian background; the Turks are also responsible for his father's death, and we know for certain that he was Greek. You do know that there was also a Greek genocide taking place during the same period, right? Also, mother tongue simply means native tongue, not mother's tongue. Gurdjieff did indeed speak Armenian as a native speaker, since he learned it from a young age, but his actual native tongue was Greek. Forget about other authors for a second; here is what Gurdjieff wrote about himself in the book Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson, in detail:

• pp. 9–10: It must also be said that owing to all kinds of conditions accidentally, or perhaps not accidentally, formed in my youth, I have had to learn, very seriously and of course always with self-compulsion, to speak, read, and write a great many languages, and to such a degree of fluency that if in following this profession unexpectedly forced on me by fate I decided not to take advantage of the "automatism" acquired by practice, I could perhaps write in any one of them. But in order to make judicious use of this automatism acquired by long practice, I would have to write either in Russian or in Armenian, because during the last two or three decades the circumstances of my life have been such that I have had to use just these two languages for communication with others, and consequently have had more practice in them.
• p. 11: In order to assuage the bitterness of my inner hurt owing to this, I must say that in my early youth, when I became interested in philological questions and was deeply absorbed in them, I preferred the Armenian language to all the others I then spoke, even including my native tongue.
• p. 12: Almost the same might be said about my native language, Greek, which I spoke in childhood, and the taste of whose "automatic associative power" I still retain. I could, I dare say, express anything I wish in it even now, but it is impossible for me to employ it here for the simple and rather comical reason that someone must transcribe my writings and translate them into other languages. And who could do this? It can be said with certainty that even the best expert in modern Greek would understand simply nothing of what I would write in the tongue I assimilated in childhood, because during the last thirty or forty years my dear "compatriots," inflamed with the desire to be at all costs like the representatives of contemporary civilization even in their conversation, have treated my dear native language just as the Armenians, anxious to become Russian "intelligentsia," have treated theirs. The Greek language whose spirit and essence were transmitted to me by heredity and the language now spoken by contemporary Greeks are as much alike as, according to the expression of Mullah Nasr Eddin, "a nail is like a requiem."

It is obvious that Gurdjieff didn't consider Armenian as his native tongue; though, per his own admission, he had great fluency as well as respect for it, and had to use it almost exclusively – along with Russian – for much of his life. He also had good command of Turkish; as Bennett wrote of him in an essay that was published in 1997:

• A Greek from the Caucasus, he spoke Turkish with an accent of unexpected purity, the accent that one associates with those born and bred in the narrow circle of the Imperial Court.

Even though his native tongue was Greek, and his family lived in the Greek quarter of Alexandropol, their domestic language was chiefly Armenian. Another recent publication is Gurdjieff: Mysticism, Contemplation, and Exercises (2019) by the academic Joseph Azize. Azize was a pupil of George Adie, who he met in 1981, and studied with until his death in 1989; Adie himself, had studied with Ouspensky, Gurdjieff, and Mme de Salzmann. He wrote:

• p. 23: First, he was raised in Alexandropol and Kars, in or near what is now Armenia, in a family of ancient Greek descent, whose domestic language was chiefly Armenian. ... Ouspensky brings some contemporary color to this, saying of Alexandropol: ... "There is also the Greek quarter, the least interesting of all outwardly, where G.'s house was situated, ...
• p. 83: That both of these traditions [referring to Neoplatonism and the Athonite "Prayer of the Heart"] are Greek is not accidental: Gurdjieff identified as a Greek, and considered Greek to be his mother tongue.

The above quote regarding the background of his family might appear vague, but he does indeed refer to his mother as well. He is more clear on his position in a 2019 article that he published on his blog (here):

• We need do no more than note some minor mistakes. Gurdjieff's mother was Greek, not Armenian, and he did not just acquire some Greek and Turkish, he was fluent in Greek and at least good in Turkish, and also in Russian, even if he spoke the latter with a Caucasian accent.

By the way, i have no problem including a sentence saying that some authors described his mother as Armenian, but we will not remove newer reliable secondary sources, that also happen to expand on the background of the family via their consideration of archival records. Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:33, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Demetrios1993, I am sorry but you cannot and should not base your personal input into Wikipedia by quoting blogs and comments by newly baked academics. You need to cite actual records and not different opinions of New Age authors if you wish to overturn statements that have been made or endorsed by people who were actually related to G or lived with him and his family - as did Olga de Hartman and was Valentin Anastasieff - G's nephew. These are the type of people who should be regarded and who have been regarded for the last 100 years. Simply being in a group as many recent authors have been does not mean that their views should be given any credence over the views of people who actually lived with G and who knew his mother personally. You have said that G's youngest daughter was given a Greek name. Who precisely are you referring to as being G's youngest daughter? And even if a son or daughter was given a Greek name, how does that suggest that G's mother must have been Greek? You are right to use the word "vague" to defend your input but unless you can come up with some concrete facts then you should revert to G' mother as being Armenian, although some recent authors suggest that she was Greek. I will provide more input in due course but would encourage you to stop reading blogs and opinions about Gurdjieff but rely upon more reliable sources - otherwise some editor will soon be sayin that Gurdjieff was related to Rasputin. Mr Taylor and some other authors like Fritz Peters and Stanley Nott were children when they stayed at the Prieure before moving to America. Their recollections can be given what weight you wish but unless you can site actual sources from the records held in Yerevan that relate to G's mother or G's relatives then you should not begin to promote your views as an editor to make changes to the status quo. Londonlinks (talk) 16:27, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

The other issue User:Demetrios1993, is that your suggested edit of making G's mother Greek based upon reading a couple of authors and your own view is completely at odds with every other reference to G's mother being Armenian that you can find on the internet - including other Wikis in other languages. Are you suggesting that all these peoples and thousands of references on Google going back years must be mistaken and only you must be correct? That is effectively what you are suggesting.

You have quoted Mr Taylor as saying "Alexandropol" records have Ivan's wife as Evdokia Elepterovna, but on Ivan's death announcement, 25 June 1918, her name is given as M[unreadable] Kalerovna. The patronymic Kalerovna is given to Evdokia also on an 1885 document, and the French death notice of Gurdjieff's mother has "Evdoki Kaleroff" as her name."

But where are all these "documents" and "notices"? There are records relating to the former citizens of Gyumri in Armenia and their homes which are held in Yerevan. The childhood home of Gurdjieff has been identified in Gyumri but that is another subject. If Mr Taylor has seen a death announcement somewhere with the name Ivan on it whose wife was supposedly called M.. Kalerovna, are we even referring to Gurdjieff's father at all rather than to some obscure Russian chap? The fact is we also don't know what "1885" document Mr Taylor has purportedly seen or what death notice. If Mr Taylor had a good relationship with Madame de Salzmann (and many other authors knew her) he could easily have asked her about G's mother - but clearly he didn't. So I would agree with your original thought that the theory you are raising about G's mother being Greek may be seen as rather "vague." Wikipedia should not be used as an outlet for pushing vague suppositions and if we cannot agree then we may need to refer the matter for a review. Londonlinks (talk) 23:03, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

It's not a couple of authors User:Londonlinks; i cited five modern authors who support that view, as well as Gurdjieff's own words. What i shared above is not my "personal input", but what reliable secondary sources say. Also, what other Wikipedia projects claim is irrelevant; Wikipedia is an unreliable user-generated source (see WP:CIRCULAR and WP:NOTSOURCE). Concerning Azize's book, i wrote that the claim might appear vague, not that it is vague. I only mentioned an article from his blog because it clarifies his position. Contrary to what you say, i can use self-published sources (such as blogs) if produced by an established expert, whose work in the relevant field has been published by reliable, independent publications (such as this one); see WP:EXPERTSPS. Furthermore, Paul Beekman Taylor lived at the Prieuré until Gurdjieff's death in 1949; he would have been 19 years old at the time, not a child with no recollections. By the way, i am glad that you asked about Gurdjieff's daughter. She is actually the one i mentioned in my previous comment as Paul Beekman Taylor's sister, Eve; their mother was Edith Annesley Taylor. So, you see, they were part of the family. Here is a photograph at her wedding, in June 1952, with the whole gang present (including Mme de Salzmann). Gurdjieff gave her his mother's Greek name, Evdokia, which French official records have as Eve. From Brancusi and Gurdjieff (2019) by Basarab Nicolescu and Paul Beekman Taylor, we read:

• p. 189: Another unpublished biographical source can be found in the papers and oral testimony of Edith Taylor, the mother of one of the authors of this article. Edith Taylor (1894–1974) was a lovely woman of predominantly Irish origin, (as were Elaine Fayre and Eileen Lane) with wit and intelligence. After arriving in Paris in 1914 and studying there after WWI service in the Morgan Hadjes Ambulance Company, she cultivated relations with Natalie Barney, Gertrude Stein, Kiki Vanderbilt, Djuna Barnes, Jane Heap, Gerald and Esther Murphy, Elsa Maxwell, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Man Ray and Marcel Duchamp, as well as with others prominent in the Paris art world. Edith Taylor had met Gurdjieff in London in 1922 and visited at the Prieuré in 1922–1923. Though she attended his talks in a number of places, she was never, strictly speaking, a 'disciple' of Gurdjieff. She had a personal relationship with Gurdjieff, nonetheless, which resulted in the birth of their daughter, whom Gurdjieff named Evdokia ("Eve" in French official records), after his mother.

User:Londonlinks, you were the one who brought up the first name of Gurdjieff's mother, claiming without any reliable sources that it was Yeva, and implying an Armenian origin; now you shrug it off as unimportant. Regarding the quotes of Taylor, here are some additional relevant excerpts from the book that i didn't mention above:

• pp. 12–13: According to the Central Archives of Armenia (File 47, Description 2, n25), he [G's father] was born Ivan Ivanovich Kurchogli (Georgian form Vano Kurdji-ogli) and at the age of twenty-three, in 1871, he married eighteen-year old Evdokia Eleptherovna (b. 1852), the daughter of Elepther Eleptheroff.
• p. 15: P. D. Ouspensky visited the city [Alexandropol] and Gurdjieff's home in the summer of 1917 and described what he heard and saw: "I met his family, and his mother. They were people of a very old and very peculiar culture. G's father was an amateur of local tales, legends, and traditions, something in the nature of a "bard"; and he knew by heart thousands and thousands of verses in the local idioms. They were Greeks from Asia Minor, but the language of the house, as of all the others in Alexandropol, was Armenian ...

Here we have Ouspensky of all people, another contemporary, also claiming that his family (including his mother) were Greeks, but like everyone else in Alexandropol, spoke Armenian. No wonder why some other authors might have confused the background of his mother. I cited a number of reliable secondary sources that provide many more details, and also happen to be in line with Gurdjieff's own writings. On the other hand, Olga de Hartmann's only reference to an Armenian mother is made in passing, and she wasn't even certain of Gurdjieff's date and place of birth. Also, i don't see any quote from Valentin Anastasieff that contradicts the above. Bennett's quotes are likewise made in passing, and i already cited Gurdjieff's own elaboration about his native tongue, which he presented in juxtaposition to Armenian. Did you read the quotes of Gurdjieff that i shared above? We are moving in circles, and apparently veering into a forum-type of discussion. You may ask for a third opinion if you want, but they will essentially agree with what i suggested above; namely to include both views in the article, per WP:NPOV.

Sidenote: Please be careful with the structure of your comments, because you are making it difficult to follow the discussion. Some paragraphs have indentations, some don't, others have unnecessary indentations, and there is even a comment above with two signatures and different time stamps. Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:18, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

User: Demetrios1993, Firstly you say that Mr Beekman Taylor lived at the Prieuré until 1949, but in fact it was closed in 1925 and eventually sold in circa 1935, so Mr Taylor could not have been living there in 1949. Please also do the maths: If G's mother died in 1925 a year after G's car accident and Mr Beekman Taylor was 19 in 1949, then he wasn't even born when G's mother was alive.

Mr Beekman Taylor was actually born on 31-12-30, so please also check the facts you are relying on to support your theory when you assert that "Paul Beekman Taylor lived at the Prieuré until Gurdjieff's death in 1949; he would have been 19 years old at the time, not a child with no recollections." He may have been 19 in 1949, but whatever his childhood recollections, they cannot possibly have been about G's mother.

Secondly you say that G's youngest daughter was called "Evdokia", yet she was called Eve according to the caption of the photo you have provided. Her name however is irrelevant as to whether G's mother was Greek. Your long preamble about who Eve's mother met during her lifetime is also irrelevant to this talk page, which as you note should not be a discussion forum.

As for Ouspensky's reference in his book In Search of the Miraculous to meeting G's family and his mother, there is no doubt that G's family came from a Greek background including his brother Dmitri whom Ouspensky would have met. But Ouspensky says nothing specific about G's mother. What of G's cousin however, the famous sculptor whose home is open in Gyumri as a museum - Segei Mercourov? How is he considered to be half-Armenian?

You refer to documents at the Central Archives of Armenia (File 47, Description 2, n25. So I will forward this reference to Mr Avetik Melik-Sargsyan who has made a detailed study of the records held in Yerevan and Mrs Anmeghikyan the head of the Cultural Center in Gyumri for their views. If such a file exists then I will ensure that the document is actually copied and published.

There are now conflicting views on whether G's mother was Armenian (most references on the internet state that she was Armenian) or whether as some recent authors have opined she was Greek. In that situation the statement you have made should be amended to encompass both points of view. Such as "G's father was Greek but there are conflicting views as to whether his mother was Armenian or Greek. There are also conflicting views over G's date of birth."

I trust that you are content with that suggestion. In the meantime I will report back on the documentary evidence from Yerevan as soon as I receive it in order to resolve this matter. Thank you for your understanding.

I would also say in passing that there seems no need to provide a translation of G's name into Greek and Russian on the English Wikepedia page. Its an English page and should remain English. What is your view, although I realise that I am asking a Greek editor and therefore asking for trouble! Londonlinks (talk) 11:49, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

As for Mr Azize and other academic scholars like Mr James Moore, their own opinions unless corroborated in some way are practically worthless. Gurdjieff only spoke about his father being Greek and if you are going to rely at all on biographies to form your opinion then you should rely upon authors who actually lived with G's mother at the Prieuré such as Olga and her husband Thomas de Hartmann. They followed G throughout the Bolshevik revolution, lived with him in Esseuntuki and followed him until he settled in Paris. They must have had frequent and deep conversations both with G's mother and wife. If they wrote in their book "Our Life with Mr Gurdjieff" that G's mother was Armenian, then they cannot both have been mistaken.

Finally I note your acceptance of John G Bennett confirming that G's father was Greek: "Bennett wrote of him in an essay that was published in 1997: "A Greek from the Caucasus, he spoke Turkish with an accent of unexpected purity, the accent that one associates with those born and bred in the narrow circle of the Imperial Court."

However, when I have pointed out to you that the same author has confirmed in his preface for the 3rd series that G's mother was Armenian, it is not something you are prepared to accept. Your view is that Mr Bennett was right about G's father, but wrong about his mother! Londonlinks (talk) 14:15, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

You ask at the beginning of your thread whether there are any more reliable sources other than the few books you have quoted that may shed light on whether G's mother was Armenian. It would be useful I think if you were to refer to what Michel de Salzman said: "Gurdjieff was born in Alexandropol in the southern Transcaucasian part of Russia. His father was Greek and his mother Armenian." https://www.gurdjieff.org/salzmann-m1.htm

Now having regard for the fact that Michel de Salzmanm was the son of Madame de Salzmann (and some have speculated was even the son of Gurdjieff) with direct knowledge of the position, I don't think you should seriously be thinking about tinkering with the long-held and accepted fact that G's mother was Armenian; and unless you can provide something to seriously contradict what Mr de Salzmann has himself written who is a primary source, then you should revert your edit or I shall do so myself. If any archival research can actually be verified that contradicts the sources I have referred to, there may then be a reason to question the long-established ethnicity of G's mother. Londonlinks (talk) 22:18, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I know that the Prieuré wasn't operating in 1949; i made that error inadvertently. But let me correct you. The Prieuré's mortgagees foreclosed in May 1932, which is when Gurdjieff suspended all of his activities there, and its former inhabitants left. Paul Beekman Taylor did spend most of his first two years there. From Gurdjieff's America: Mediating the Miraculous (2004) by Paul Beekman Taylor:

• pp. 3–4: ... Gurdjieff had always been a part of my life. I was born into an environment dominated by his image and his ideas. My mother had been in his circle already for some seven years when I was born in Hampstead, London in a house Orage had found for her near his. I was born the day after he left his wife Jessie and son Richard on the SS Washington for New York. There he played out a final scenario with Gurdjieff that sealed their personal relations for the rest of Orage's life. Six months later, after Gurdjieff had returned to France, my mother moved into the Prieuré where I spent most of my first two years. My scant memories of that time are probably more my mother's than mine, but I can still conjure up an image of children playing "stop" on the lawn in front of the château; and the odor of Gurdjieff's coffee taken on the terrace is still alive in my olfactory memory. After Gurdjieff left the Prieuré in 1933, my mother, sister and I moved to Paris where we saw much of him until he left for the United States in the fall of 1933. We were close to him in early 1934 after his return.
• pp. 150–151: Gurdjieff suspended all his activities at the Prieuré in 1932, though he said that he would repossess the property as soon as possible. After the Prieuré was lost, its former inhabitants scattered. ... In May [1932] the holders of Gurdjieff's mortgages on the Prieuré foreclosed, ...

Also, i don't need to do any math because i didn't claim that Paul Beekman Taylor met Gurdjieff's mother; my reference to his recollections have to do with his experience with Gurdjieff himself, from whom he must have heard stories. As aforementioned, Paul was in the environment of Gurdjieff from the beginning of his life, and even after the Prieuré was foreclosed, his family didn't lose contact with him. He would also become his student, from 1948 until Gurdjieff's death in 1949. Having said that, Paul also learned a lot from his mother, who surely would have met Gurdjieff's mother, being in Gurdjieff's circle from about 1923. Gurdjieff's mother came to the Prieuré in May 1923, and she died in the summer of 1925.

User:Londonlinks, it's not me saying; according to Paul, Eve's brother, Gurdjieff gave her his mother's name, Evdokia. Paul even elaborated that Gurdjieff "pronounced it in Russian fashion Yevdokeeya with stress on the penultimate syllable." What the French official records say is another matter. The first name of Gurdjieff's mother might not be indicative of her origin, but it is suggestive.

I beg to differ; Ouspensky explicitly mentioned meeting Gurdjieff's mother, and then described the whole family as Greeks (in plural). He could have written Greek-Armenian, or mention his mother as Armenian, but he didn't. Furthermore, i am not familiar with Sergey Merkurov's ancestry, but i don't see any contradictions. The quote by Churton (2017) is referring to the Merkurov family as Greek, and mentions Sergey Merkurov's grandfather who built a house in Alexandropol; that doesn't exclude the possibility that his maternal family was Armenian. Having said that, i did a quick search and found this article by an Armenian journalist, which includes the following quote by Merkurov: "My mother and father are Greek, but I am Greek-Armenian". These are all irrelevant however; we are not discussing Merkurov.

User:Londonlinks, it is not me who refers to certain archival sources, the authors of the cited books do. If you want to contact other people to verify the information, feel free to do so, but there are additional references mentioned in those works; you might as well forward them the entire books, or at the very least, the relevant chapters. Or if you want additional clarification for a specific piece of information, you might as well contact the authors directly.

I don't have a problem with your suggested sentence; i will go ahead and integrate it into the article, since we both agree. The fact that there are conflicting views regarding his birthdate is already mentioned in the next sentences; there is no need to repeat it. Furthermore, i do disagree on the removal of the non-English names; contrary to what you think, relevant foreign names aren't prohibited in the English Wikipedia, or any Wikipedia.

The opinions of academic scholars with expertise on the subject are not worthless and we will not be removing them. What i asked in my first comment, was whether there were any other more in-depth sources on the topic of his mother's background, aside of claims that were made in passing. Nothing in-depth has been presented, and even if it was, it wouldn't change the neutral summary we just agreed upon; aside of minor changes maybe. I was already aware of Michel de Salzmann's claim; this is nothing new. Furthermore, the quote of Bennett that i cited, was in order to support the claim that Gurdjieff had good command of Turkish, not to reiterate his Greek ancestry; please read my comment again. Also, the preface you shared above only says that Gurdjieff's mother/native tongue was Armenian and that he spoke Armenian with his mother; but again, we have Gurdjieff's own writings taking precedence over such claims. Gurdjieff presented his actual mother/native tongue (Greek) in juxtaposition to Armenian, and wrote that he had to use Armenian and Russian, almost exclusively, for much of his life. And even Ouspensky said that their domestic language was Armenian, as of all the others in Alexandropol; yet, he clarified their Greek background. We are essentially repeating ourselves here. Demetrios1993 (talk) 01:52, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

User: Demetrios1993, Michel de Salznann was not making any "claim" when he said that G's mother was Armenian - he was stating a fact as he knew it to be and he is a primary source rather than secondary. He therefore has to be given precedence over your own view which is based upon reading a couple of secondary and insignificant biographical sources. If your edit does not reflect this reality then I will revert your edit to avoid misleading the public and refer the matter for review. If the review goes your way then it can revert back to your rendition which would be unfortunate. As for the Greek and Russian at the beginning of the page there is no purpose whatsoever to this as it clutters up the opening paragraph for no reason with gobbledegook. You may as well add the Armenian language which would also serve no purpose. I propose to delete it unless you or somebody can provide an intelligent reason for its inclusion. You have been criticised in the past for your editorial input and I think you are repeating your mistakes on this page.

Londonlinks (talk) 03:11, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

User: Demetrios1993 please also refrain from quoting large chunks of text from biographies which serves no useful purpose. Mr Taylor's childhood recollections are of no relevance to the ethnicity of Gurdjieff's mother. Londonlinks (talk) 03:19, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Demetrios1993 You have proposed to update the page to announce that Gurdjieff’s mother was not Armenian, but Greek; and you have quoted the following source to support your view along with a great deal of irrelevant anecdotal material:

From G.I.Gurdjieff: A Life (2020) by Paul Beekman Taylor “If it seems odd that an Armenian woman would carry a Greek name, it is apparent that Gurdjieff's mother was Greek as well as his father.”

You then opine User:Demetrios1993 that every source you have read describing Gurdjieff's mother as Armenian does so in passing and that “I believe an update is in order.“ You then ask rhetorically: “Are there any other, more in-depth sources on the topic that contradict the above?"

User:Demetrios1993 you do not need to look far, because the same author has contradicted himself:

From Gurdjieff's America: Mediating the Miraculous (2004) by Paul Beekman Taylor: “His Greek father was Ionnas and Armenian mother was Yevdokia.” (p 10)

You neglected to refer to Mr Taylor's statement when quoting from his book.I am going to revert your edit to say “Gurdjieff was born of a Greek father and Armenian mother.” You can then add citations and references to the authors you wish, who have suggested that Gurdjieff's mother may have been Greek.

I have given you the names of various people who have confirmed that G’s mother was Armenian: Olga and Thomas de Hartmann; Michel de Salzmann and John G. Bennett in conjunction with Gurdjieff’s nephew, Valentin Anastassieff, who are all primary sources.

Mr Taylor by contrast is not a primary source and has said in his 2004 book quoted above: “I cannot recall hearing the name “Gurdjieff” during the formative period of my youth” (p4); and “I am not always successful in confirming facts, even when I have the primary source in front of me.” (p1)

The page should not be updated in the way you have suggested and if you wish to take the matter to review then please do so supported by facts, rather than your own personal opinion, as that is not a proper basis for tinkering with this important page. Londonlinks (talk) 19:30, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Londonlinks, maybe you don't know this, but Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources, and to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. (see WP:PSTS). So no, primary sources should not be given precedence over secondary sources. Besides that, you are even ignoring other personal or firsthand accounts, such as those of Ouspensky and Gurdjieff himself. You also haven't provided any actual quote by Valentin Anastassieff; you only cited a preface by Bennett, which says something different. That quote by Taylor is simply a repetition of what has simply been the long-held view; nobody disputes that. But even that source, doesn't expand on the background of Gurdjieff's mother; it's just a mention made in passing. Furthermore, Taylor has updated his view in light of additional research, so it doesn't really matter what was published two decades ago. We have a 2020 publication of his that expands on the subject, with a view that is also supported by other secondary sources. The age of the source matters; see WP:AGE MATTERS. I will rephrase your recent edit, to be in line with what the sources actually say. This is indeed the long-held view, but some scholars have recently suggested a different view. Also, i have asked for a source supporting the claim that Yeva was her first name; nothing has been presented yet. If there is no source supporting the claim, then this constitutes original research. Even if there was a source, which i haven't seen yet, the way you summarized it in the article was not neutral; in contrast to you, i have cited sources saying that her first name was Evdokia (and different variants of it), not Yeva.

Lastly, there is no Greek text in the lead, only Russian. An argument could be made for retaining the Russian name, but i don't consider its removal a big issue. I will go ahead and remove it. Demetrios1993 (talk) 01:39, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Demetrios1993 The primary sources I have provided are those who have not just lived with Gurdjieff and his mother, but in the case of Michael de Salzmann he is said to be Gurdjieff's own son! Regardless of that, Madame de Salzmann was with Gurdjieff for 30 years.

You believe that all these worthy people must have been mistaken, because a few scholars, who even contradict themselves, say otherwise.

User:Demetrius1993 your opinion is not worth anything. If you wish to express your own view then start a blog somewhere else, but not on Wikipedia.

Gurdjieff himself has said nothing specific about his mother - but those who lived with him on a daily basis have.

Whether she was Yeva as in Armenian or Evdokia as in Greek is actually totally irrelevant.

Have respect for the people I have referred to and don't enter into an edit war with me because you will lose.

Gurdjieff's mother was Armenian according to the people who lived with him, before your sources were even born.

If you wish to push your Greek agenda then refer the matter for a 3rd opinion. Londonlinks (talk) 11:41, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Demetrios1993, you also ask for evidence that Gurdjief's mother was Yeva. Please refer again to your own sources which you have only partly quoted by using [....]. The part you omitted to mention is as follows:

From Deconstructing Gurdjieff: Biography of a Spiritual Magician (2017) by Tobias Churton

Archival Records: "A gazette of local families lists this person Ivan (Gurdjieff’s father) as married to Eva."

Eva of course would have been written in Armenian as Yeva. User:Demetrios1993 please also note the following (I will add citations later):-

Gurdjieff said in his own words in Meeting 17 Thursday 28/10/1943 that he was 76 years old. He died six years later in 1949 and so was 82 years old – and certainly looked 82 - when he died. He was therefore born in 1867.

This accords with what G wrote in his autobiography Meetings with Remarkable Men, that he was about 7 years old at the time of the great plague which affected his father’s cattle, which began in the summer of 1873. So Gurdjieff has confirmed his age and year of birth in his own words.

Gurdjief’s Father was Ivan Ivanovitch Gurdjief and G said in his autobiography that his father was 82 years old when he last saw him in 1916 - and he should know. So G’s father was born in 1834 and would have been 33 years old when G was born in 1867.

Please keep those facts in mind although there may be disputes over dates and read carefully:

From “Deconstructing Gurdjieff: Biography of a Spiritual Magician By Tobias Churton under the heading of 'Archival Records':

“A gazette of local Alexandropol families of 1907 lists Ivan Ivanovitch Gurdjieff as married to Eva, who had three children, Georgii, Dmitri and Sophia.”

Eva would of course have been written as Yeva in Armenian.

Mr Churton having found a reference to Gurdjieff's family then looked elsewere for Ivan Ivanovitch - an exceedingly common name simply meaning “son of Ivan” - and found one in Armenia’s Central Archives: Ivan Ivanovitch Kurchogli, husband of Evdokia Elephtherovna, born 1852, whom Ivan married in 1871, aged 23.

It is this couple instead of the couple identified in the gazette of Gyrumri residents that Mr Churton claims were G’s parents and which Mr Beekman Taylor then refers to in his book written in 2020 to assert that Gurdjieff’s mother was Greek.

Mr Churton states quite logically that because Evdokia’s maiden name comes from the Greek Elephtheros, she must have been Greek and that “If Gurdjieff was born to Ivan and Evdokia .. one thing we can reasonably be certain of is that both Gurdjieff’s parent were Greek.”

Mr Churton's couple however could not possibly have been Gurdjieff’s parents, firstly because Ivan Kurchogli was born in 1848 (rather than 1834) and was not the name of Gurdjieff’s father; and secondly his wife Evdokia had she been Gurdjieff's mother would have borne Gurdjieff when she was still unmarried (unheard of even by Greek standards) and only 15 years old. Furthemore we would need to assume that she died in France in 1925 at the age of 73 – whereas G’s mother as is clear from photographs was considerably older.

The story about Ivan and his wife Evdokia is entertaining, but unfortunately it is a red-herring.

As I have said at the beginning, the whole "Evdokia" nonsense should be deleted from the page, otherwise it just amounts to a form of vandalism.

User:Demetrios1993 there is nothing in any of Mr Churton or Mr Taylor's books to dispute the confirmation by Gurdjieff's contemporaries that his mother was Armenian.

You should refrain from tinkering with the page to advance your Greek theory. Londonlinks (talk) 23:54, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Again User:Londonlinks, that's not my opinion. For one, the primary sources you have provided don't expand on his mother's ancestry and simply mention this view in passing; second, you dismiss other primary sources that don't corroborate this view; and third, you also dismiss new secondary sources because they do not fit in with your personal point of view. That's not how we write an encyclopedia. Furthermore, Ouspensky also lived with his mother, and he described all members as Greeks. You say Gurdjieff didn't write anything about his mother, but we know for certain (per the quotes i shared above) that he didn't consider Armenian to be his native tongue, which wouldn't be the case if his mother was indeed Armenian; in fact, he is presenting Armenian in juxtaposition to his native tongue (Greek).

I didn't deliberately omit any information; i cited Churton's (2017) conclusion regarding her ancestry, which is indeed that. I am not going to cite the whole chapter and every single detail. For the record, Eva or Eve is not Yeva (that is your opinion, not the author's), and regardless of that, Churton also agrees that her actual first name was Evdokia, which is all that matters. Then again, if you want to include Eva or Eve as an additional piece of information, i don't have a problem. As a sidenote, although not stated in the sources, Eva is also a Greek name, that can also be used as a diminutive (shortened) form of the Greek Evdokia; i actually have a relative with that first name. Furthermore, Evdokia is also found in the archival records, and is further corroborated by Taylor, as the first name of Gurdjieff's mother. Are you really trying to negate this, when we even know how the name was pronounced by Gurdjieff? Do you understand the meaning of vandalism (see Wikipedia:Vandalism) that you accused me of?

We shouldn't be synthesizing or cherry-picking information, when we both know that Gurdjieff's date of birth is disputed, and even the secondary sources that you cited support a Greek origin; please read WP:SYNTHESIS. With your rationale, we should also dismiss the gazette of local persons from 1907, that lists Ivan's wife as Eva, since according to it, Gurdjieff was born in 1880. Even the Hartmanns that you have been citing, say that Gurdjieff's date and even place of birth are uncertain; they even wrote that Gurdjieff's writings are vague, ambiguous, and sometimes contradictory regarding this and other matters. Not to mention that his tombstone in France, lists 1872 as the year of his birth, not 1867. For the same reason, we cannot be sure of his father's date of birth, which is likewise uncertain. Ivan Ivanovich Kurchogli was a variant of his father's name. It could be a Turkish or Georgian form. In fact, it should be noted that Vasilii, who was Gurdjieff's uncle, had remained in Georgia and didn't initially follow Gurdjieff's father to Alexandropol; though, he did later. According to Georgian records, when Vasilii was married in 1867, he is recorded having the surname Kurdjogli. This would explain why George Kiourtz-idis, a living descendant of Gurdjieff's uncle Vasilii, bears a Greek variant of that surname today.

Anyway, i do not expect us to resolve our disagreement on our own, which is why i went ahead and requested a third opinion via Wikipedia:Third opinion; you can see it here. Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:15, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Demtrios1993 thank you for referring this matter for review. You reverted the long-standing fact that Gurdjief's mother was Armenian by saying that you had read a few recent biographies which indicate from archival records that G's mother was called Evdokia; and you quoted from the following book:

From Deconstructing Gurdjieff: Biography of a Spiritual Magician (2017) by Tobias Churton: pp. 19–25: Archival Records: [...] "One thing we can be reasonably certain of is that both Gurdjieff's parents were Greek"

The part which you omitted between brackets [...] refers to an Armenian archival record which confirmed that G's mother was not called Evdokia, but Yeva (translated into English as Eva). Furthermore, the extract that you do quote deliberately distorts what Mr Churton wrote, which was that "If" a certain Ivan Ivanovitch and Evdokia that he identified were Gurdjieff's parents, then they were certainly Greek.

The fallacy however is that the "Ivan Ivanovitch" and "Evdokia" that Mr Churton managed to turn up allegedly in the Armenian Central Achives could not possibly have been Gurdjieff's parents, for the reasons I have given on this talk page and not least because regardless of dates, Gurdjieff's father was not called Ivan Ivanovitch Kurdjogli and his mother was not called Evdokia. I have refrained from reverting your edit as I do not wish to engage in an edit war with you and look forward to the review decision, but I must say that the damage that you have caused so far in altering the ethnicity of Gurdjieff's mother from Armenian to Greek has already been perpetuated on the internet, as the public relies upon Wikipedia to present facts rather than fiction. Londonlinks (talk) 01:26, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Came across this dispute on the third opinion noticeboard. After reviewing the conversation, it seems clear to me that this is really a matter of whether or not primary sources should be given preferrential treatment above secondary sources, and WP:PST is very clear that verfiable secondary sources must be given preference. As Demetrios1993 has noted, WP:CONTEXTMATTERS and WP:AGE MATTERS also support the change, not to mention the personal logic that goes into an editor's choice to add information (like synthesising other information) but cannot be used as satisfactory support on its own, per WP:SYNTH. Fortunately, I don't see WP:SYNTH as a problem here since the changes requested are well-sourced in their own right.

I would also like to applaud Demetrios1993. We could all learn a thing or two about WP:NEGOTIATION and treating editors with WP:GOODFAITH from reviewing this conversation. I caution Londonlinks against WP:Stonewalling but leave that caution here for other third party reviewers to dispute if I have overstepped my assessment of this situation.

Well done, editors. Much can be accomplished here with your collective interest and knowledge. Pistongrinder (talk) 23:43, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Demetrios1993 let me again refer you to your own references:

From Deconstructing Gurdjieff: Biography of a Spiritual Magician (2017) by Tobias Churton:

• p39: Archival Records: “If Gurdjieff was born to Ivan and Evdokia in 1877 as many official records maintain, then Gurdjieff was almost certainly Greek, as his mother’s maiden name comes from the Greek Elephtheros.”

Evdokia Elephtherovna however could not have been Gurdjieff’s mother as I have stated, because if she was born in 1852 as the record states, she would have been only 73 years old when she died at the Prieure in 1925, whereas Gurdjieff’s mother was much older (http://www.gurdjieff.am/photos/33-big.jpg); and if Gurdjieff was indeed Evdokia’s son, he would have been only 72 years old when he died in 1949 – which again is pure fantasy.

The whole Evdokia story is based on the marriage of a Mr Ivan Ivanovitch Kurchogli , who clearly cannot have been Gurdjieff’s father Ivan Ivanovitch Gurdjieff. Mr Kurchogli was also born in 1848, whereas Gurdjieff said in Meetings with Remarkable Men that his father was born in 1834, being 82 years old the last time he saw him alive in 1916. We have to respect what Gurdjieff himself wrote in his chapter about his father.

There is no basis for relying upon the biographies you have recently stumbled upon for contradicting the fact which has been confirmed for the last 100 years by all of Gurdjieff's contemporaries that Gurdjief's mother was Armenian - your edit should therefore be reverted otherwise the page could easily get clogged up with speculation and gossip from many other authors who are making a living from the Gurdjieff name. Londonlinks (talk) 01:18, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Londonlinks, the initial edit was done back in May, and even though there have been numerous edits since then by different editors, you were the only one who has had a problem with it. Not to mention that i first posted about it in the talk page, waited a week, and then went ahead with the changes. Furthermore, the view about the Armenian ancestry has been reinstated following our discussion; it's not as if it is excluded from the article. But you cannot claim that his mother was Armenian as an absolute fact, when we have a number of other reliable sources that express a different view; it is a violation of WP:NPOV, which is a policy.

We are repeating ourselves, again. Churton (2017), among others, says that the name of Gurdjieff's mother was the Greek Evdokia, and that even though one source has it as Eva, it must be referring to the same person named Evdokia. There is no mention of Yeva whatsoever; that is your own opinion, and it constitutes original research. Furthermore, Ivan Ivanovich Kurchogli not being a variant of Gurdjieff's father's name is your own personal opinion as well, not the author's. We also know that Gurdjieff's date of birth, as well as his father's, is very much disputed, as already explained. You cannot pick and choose what suits you out of a source, and then even misinterpret the conclusion of the author you are citing. Please read WP:SYNTHESIS, again. Demetrios1993 (talk) 01:49, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Demetrios1993 It is with respect you who is doing the cherry picking: The "Evdokia" whom you are referring to was born in 1852 according to the archival record quoted and so cannot possibly have been Gurdjieff's mother as a matter of commonsense. Look on the internet for photographs of Gurdjieff's elderly mother at the Prieure in 1925.

And if your Evdokia bore Gurdjieff in 1877 after her mariage to Ivan Kurchogli in 1871 according to "all official records", did Gurdjieff look as if he were 72 years old when he died in 1949? The date in his German passport of 28-12-77 is clearly wrong unless G came from another planet (another theory). Somebody at the German consulate in New York may have heard 1877 instead of 1867, but for entry purposes to the USA, it is unlikely that G or anyone else would have wanted to spend valuable time sending the passport back to correct an inconsequential mistake.

User:Demetrios1993 let us not play with words. Even if Kurchogli is somehow a variant of the name Gurdjieff - and Yeva in Armenian is Evdokia in Greek - the same archival record you quote lists the ages of Mr Ivan Kurchogli and his wife Evdokia, which if correct, must rule them out as being Gurdjieff's parents. The "death certificate" of Mr Kurchogli is also dated 1918, according to the researches of Mr Paul Beekman Taylor.

To equate this couple with G's parents would therefore mean not only disregarding the ages of Mr Kurchogli and his wife, but G's own reference to the age of his father and the photographic evidence of his mother, who in reality was clearly at least 83 years old in 1925 and not 73, as Evdokia would have been had she still been alive then. The grave stone of Gurdjieff's father in Gyumri records his date of birth as 1834, which accords with what Gurdjieff later confirmed in his autobiography - and his father's death as 1917, which does not accord with Mr Kurchogli's death.

These facts exist because Mr Ivan Ivanovitch Kurchogli and his lovely Greek wife Evdokia clearly bear no relation to Mr Gurdjieff's parents, although to take a leaf out of the researches of Mr Beekman Taylor and Mr Churton, I could postulate that they may well have been the neighbours of Mr Gurdjieff' parents! Londonlinks (talk) 10:48, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

User: Demetrios1993 you also say that "for the record" Eva or Eve is not Yeva in Armenian, which is merely my opinion; and that the author Mr Churton asserts that her actual first name was Evdokia, "which is all that matters." May I refer you to the Yeva page on Wikipedia Yeva. Evdokia in Armenian is Եվդոկիա while Eva in Armenian is Եվա ("Yeva") and Mr Churton translated the name he read from the Armenian gazette as Eva and not Evdokia Thanks. Londonlinks (talk) 11:38, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Beware of WP:SYNTH. You're leaning heavily on it regarding the logic behind the parentage argument. "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source." Pistongrinder (talk) 23:38, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Londonlinks, are you really asking me to comment on a photograph, which just shows an elderly woman that could very well be in her 70s? Also, i didn't write that Yeva is not the Armenian version of Eva or Eve, i wrote that Eva or Eve is not Yeva, as in, that's not what the author wrote; i even included it in a parenthesis. Furthermore, Եվդոկիա is just a transliteration of the name Evdokia, not an Armenian name, and i am not even sure if the records were in Armenian; i believe they were in Russian during that time period. Eva is also found in other languages as already explained. Lastly, our opinions don't really matter; what matters is what the reliable source that you (and i) cited says, which is corroborated by additional sources that i shared above. Wikipedia is not a forum to publish our own thoughts and analyses. Demetrios1993 (talk) 01:51, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Summary

I came here with the intent of trying to provide a third opinion, but the above is a pretty imposing text wall, and seems to do a fair amount of going in circles. Any chance both of you could summarize, in maybe a paragraph or two, what your position is, what references you think support it, and why? That would be quite helpful to anyone else looking at this matter. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 17:58, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I suppose I should ping both Londonlinks and Demetrios1993. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 17:59, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Seraphimblade, I agree. I was hoping for the same thing yesterday. Pistongrinder (talk) 23:32, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I want to thank both Pistongrinder and Seraphimblade for their comments, and their willingness to participate in the discussion. In summary, User:Londonlinks wants to present the view that Gurdjieff's mother had Armenian ancestry, as an absolute fact, because certain primary sources mention it in passing; these include writings by the de Hartmann couple and Michel de Salzmann. Then, there are a couple of other primary sources, that don't corroborate that view. For example, P. D. Ouspensky met Gurdjieff's mother in 1917, and described the whole family as Greeks, while Gurdjieff himself didn't consider Armenian to be his native tongue; although he spoke Armenian with great fluency from a young age, he only referred to Greek as his native tongue. The relevant quotes have been shared above. In addition, there are a number of newer reliable secondary sources that support a Greek ancestry for Gurdjieff's mother, that also take into account archival records; relevant quotes by Tobias Churton (2017), Roger Lipsey (2019), Joseph Azize (2019), and Paul Beekman Taylor (2020) have been shared above, and most already cited in the article. Personally, i am ok with either of the two following summaries, which are neutral; though, i am open to other suggestions as well.

His father Ivan Ivanovich Gurdjieff (Greek: Ιωάννης Γεωργιάδης) was Greek, while there are conflicting views as to whether his mother was Armenian or Greek.

His father Ivan Ivanovich Gurdjieff (Greek: Ιωάννης Γεωργιάδης) was Greek; the long-held view is that Gurdjieff's mother was Armenian, but some scholars have recently suggested that she was a Greek named Evdokia (Greek: Ευδοκία) Eleptherovna or Kalerovna.

The second summary is what the article currently has. Demetrios1993 (talk) 01:51, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Demetrios1993 I have provided a link to an actual photograph of Gurdjieff's elderly mother as she was in 1925 and knew that you would then say that such a woman could have been 73 years old so that she might still be your "Evdokia" who was born in 1852. Nobody however could rationally say from looking at the photograph of Gurdjieff's mother that she was then 73 years old. On the contrary, she can only have been at least ten years years older and into her 80's.

User:Demetrios1993 as you have quoted Michael Pittman above who refers to an opinion of Mr Beekman Taylor, please read Mr Pittman's book called "G I Gurdjieff and his Armenian Roots" where Mr Pittman states that Gurdjieff was born to an Armenian mother and a Cappadocian-Greek father.

G I Gurdjieff and His Armenian Roots (2008) by Michael Pittman

Mr Paul Beekman Taylor's unfounded opinion that the brother of Gurdjieff's father was called Vasilly Kurdchogli is not supported by any cited source, but it does start a wild goose chase which is then followed by his fellow author Mr Churton, who tracks down a Mr "Kurchjogli" (not even Kurdchogli) from the Armenian archives, who was married to a certain Evdokia. Their dates of birth and the date of Mr Kurchogli's death as shown on his death certificate quoted by Mr Taylor do not correspond to Gurdjieff mother or his father, whom Gurdjieff said was born in 1834.

I would prefer to think that Gurdjieff knew the age of his father when lhe said that the last time he saw his father alive was in 1916, when he was 82 years old. That rules out "Mr Kurchogli" as being Gurdjieff's father, or Mr Kurchogli's wife Evdokia as being Gurdjief's mother.

The "researches" of these two authors - one of whom Mr Taylor admits to getting his facts wrong even when faced with primary sources - do not support any rational basis for saying that Gurdjieff's mother was Greek or that the name of his father was Ivan Ivanovitch Kurchogli. The page should state as before that Gurdjieff's mother was Armenian with a reference to your Evdokia theory if you still think it has some relevance. Had I seen your suggested edit back in May I would have challenged your proposal immediately. Londonlinks (talk) 08:27, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Seraphimblade that we should both produce a summmary of our positions to assist other editors understand the issue raised by your edit. Your summary which is currently on the page should however be edited to say that Gurdjieff's father was Ivan Ivanovitch Gurdjieff, but some authors have recently opined that his surname was Kurchogli. This is because the theory that Gurdjieff's mother was Evdokia and that she was Greek can only be advanced if the name Gurdjieff is the same as Kurchogli - who was a man apparently married to a woman called Evdokia who was born in 1852. Do not be surprised if we then find other editors jumping onto the bandwagon to say that Gurdjieff was actually Turkish.Londonlinks (talk) 10:26, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

We have already been over most of what you wrote; i am not going to repeat the same things again in this subsection. Please stick to the actual sources; your own interpretation and analysis of the primary sources is irrelevant. You also ignore a number of details from the sources that were shared, and don't even quote the names properly. Furthermore, your proposed summary, stating as an absolute fact that Gurdjieff's mother was Armenian, when we have other sources that support a different view, is not neutral. Regarding the alternative variants of Gurdjieff's father's surname that are attested in the archival records, i have no problem adding an explanatory footnote (so as not to clutter the sentence) with the Turkish or Georgian form Kurchogli, as well as the Russian forms Giordzhev and Gyrdzhev. Demetrios1993 (talk) 01:55, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Demetrios1993 please do not tinker with the page any further. Whether "Gurdjieff" is equivalent to some other name in another language is irrelevant. All the noise you have created is based solely on Mr Beekman Taylor's unsupported opinion that Mr Gurdjieff's uncle (the brother of his father) was a Vasilii Kurdjogli, which in turn has thrown up a search result for a Mr Kurchogli who had a Greek wife called Evdokia born in 1852.

This type of so-called reasearch is completely inane and of no value whatsoever.

I have shown you an actual photograph of Mr Gurdjieff's mother taken in 1925 who cannot possibly have then been 72 years old and Mr Kurcholi whoever he was can only have been Mr Gurdjieff's father if you ignore what Mr Gurdjieff himself said about his father's age.

This is why I have said you have deliberately vandalised the page with this Evdokia nonsense. I am going to escalate this matter rather than reverting your edit because I do not wish to provoke an edit war.

The page should not be turned into a platform for advancing the unfounded opinions of different authorsLondonlinks (talk) 14:48, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Londonlinks, please clarify what you mean by "escalating this matter." Seraphimblade and I both submit our assistance in providing an unbiased 3rd opinion. Pistongrinder (talk) 20:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you - I overlooked that! I propose to present a summary in due course with citations once I have covered the "Kurchogli-Evdokia" reference that User:Demetrios1993 is heavily promoting as justification for editing the page in regard to G's mother.

The point regarding his reference to Mr Churton is that he simply states in his book that "if" Gurdjieff was the son of Mr Ivan Ivanovitch Kurchogli and his wife Evdokia - a couple apparently identified in the Armenian archives but with no address provided to even say where they resided - then " one thing that is reasonably certain is that they were Greek" because Evdokia is a Greek name.

User:Demetrios1993 begins his justification for editing the reference to G's mother being Armenian by using brackets [...] to omit the first part of the reference which clarifies that Mr Churton is merely saying "what if" the Kurchoglys were Gurdjieff's parents.

There is nothing in any source cited by User:Demetrios1993 which says based upon an archival record that the Kurchogli couple were Gurdjieff's parents - only that Mr and Mrs Kurchogli, whoever they were, were Greek.

User:Demetrios1993 has misquoted from the recent biographies which he says he has read, which do not say that the Kurchoglys were Gurdjieff's parents, but only that if they were, then Gurdjieff's mother was Greek.

User:Demetrios1993 has no basis for editing the page on the footing that some authors believe that Gurdjieff's mother may have been Greek, because no author has expressed such a view. All that his sources have said is that "if" the Kurchoglys were Gurdjieff's parents, then it can be reasonably certain that his mother was Greek.

Nobody has however said that the Kurchoglys were Gurdjieff's parents and until that is established, the editing of User:Demetrios1993 is an unnecessary and misleading distraction. Londonlinks (talk) 23:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Londonlinks, do you understand the purpose of this section? You were asked to summarize your position in a paragraph or two; instead, all you have done is added new walls of text, which defeats the purpose of the section. No third party will bother reading any of it, and if i begin replying as well, it will end up like the previous section. Demetrios1993 (talk) 01:27, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Demetrios1993 I understand the purpose of a summary and will write one and cite the whole of the extract from your quotation which you distorted by omitting to refer to the part that you dismissed in brackets [...].

Not a single author anywhere since Gurdjieff's death in 1949 has said that Gurdjieff's mother was Greek - and neither does Mr Churton or Mr Paul Beekman Taylor, whom you have mis-quoted.

Please read again the full text that you have omitted to include which speculates that "if a certain Kurchogli couple were the parents of Gurdjieff then....it is reasonably certain that his parents were Greek."

The only reason why I have engaged with you rather than simply revert your edit is because I have tried to explain that there is no possibility that this Kurchogly couple were Gurdjieff's parents and neither author expresses such a view.

The fact that Gurdjieff's mother was Armenian has been established for 75 years in the books and articles of Gurdjieff's own relatives and his contemporaries.

Your Greek theory on the other hand that Gurdjieff's mother was Greek is not sustained by any source - even in the two "biographies" you have quoted at the beginning of your commentary. Consequently there is no basis for making your edit or even to refer to the books you have quoted unless part of a bibliography section. Londonlinks (talk) 07:25, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Londonlinks, you didn't understand the purpose of the section, and still haven't; it was certainly not for us to continue our previous discussion. Anyway, it doesn't matter now. Furthermore, even though this was already explained to you in the previous section, let me quickly repeat, again, that i didn't deliberately omit any information; i quoted Churton's (2017) conclusion regarding her ancestry, which is indeed that. I was not going to quote the whole chapter and every single detail, even though i did cite all of the relevant pages. What's ironic however is that you are the one who is actually misquoting the author. The following quote you shared – within quotation marks – doesn't exist; "if a certain Kurchogli couple were the parents of Gurdjieff then....it is reasonably certain that his parents were Greek." Churton clearly accepts that the 1871 archival record you refer to pertains to the parents of Gurdjieff; so does Taylor (2020). Furthermore, variants of his father's surname, as well as his mother's first name, are corroborated by other records as well. Lipsey (2019) and Azize (2019) also support that his mother was Greek. You are in denial if you really believe that no one has expressed a different view. Anyway, two third parties with a lot more experience and a much better understanding of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines than yourself, have already expressed their opinions (first 3O and second 3O). The article currently presents an accurate and neutral summary of what has been published. If you have an alternative neutral suggestion to share, feel free to do so; but, we are not going to continue this discussion ad infinitum. Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:18, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

From at least what I've heard so far, there is indeed genuine disagreement among sources regarding this matter. So, that would leave us two choices. First, the article could reflect, as it sounds like it currently does, that uncertainty. Secondly, to be honest, I do not see why it is a particularly pressing need to state his parents' ethnicity at all. So, another option would be to just omit that, at least until a consensus among sources becomes clearer (if it ever does). Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 06:59, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I reserve my final verdict on my third opinion. I would like a few questions answered that are difficult to parse out with the text wall above, even though I have read quite a bit of it. Keep in mind, I am no expert on the subject matter. I am, however, well-versed in biographies and the related policies. On that note, I say we try this summary thing again.

See below

Second-Attempt Summary

• Demetrios1993, I would like a brief summary of your opinion along with a list of your sources and the quotes you are pulling from those sources. Similar to Seraphimblade, I question the WP:DUEWEIGHT of including the mother's heritage at all. I would appreciate your summary to be under 300 words. Please also include your suggestions for the article like you have done above. Share your summary in a response edit to this bullet point.

Pistongrinder, thank you for your new attempt to establish consensus. In summary, there is disagreement among sources regarding the background of Gurdjieff's mother; supporting either an Armenian or Greek ancestry. Every source that i read, describing Gurdjieff's mother as Armenian, does so in passing, without even mentioning her name. During the last decade or so, some secondary sources expanded on the background of the family via their consideration of archival records, and came to the conclusion that his mother was Greek. Secondary sources that support that view are those by Tobias Churton (2017), Roger Lipsey (2019), Joseph Azize (2019), and Paul Beekman Taylor (2020). These newer secondary sources are also corroborated – directly or indirectly – by earlier primary sources, such the account of P. D. Ouspensky and Gurdjieff's own writings. I am including the relevant quotes within the following collapsible template, in order to avoid cluttering.

Relevant quotes

From In Search of the Miraculous (1949) by P. D. Ouspensky: p. 340: I met his family, his father, and his mother. ... They were Greeks from Asia Minor, but the language of the house, as of all the others in Alexandropol, was Armenian. From Deconstructing Gurdjieff: Biography of a Spiritual Magician (2017) by Tobias Churton: pp. 19–25: Archival Records: ... One thing we can be reasonably certain of is that both Gurdjieff's parents were Greek. His mother's maiden name comes from the Greek Elephtheros, referring perhaps to the Greek Orthodox saint and martyr of this name as well as the ancient Greek word for freedom: a dangerous surname to have in Turkey in the wake of the bloody 1866–69 Cretan revolt against Turkish rule. Gurdjieff's mother's father Elepheriadis (Greek again) was married to Sophia, whose name was obviously Greek but who was nicknamed in her capacity as midwife padji, Turkish for "sister," a clue as to her birthplace. ... It is quite possible that Ivan met the Greek Evdokia in Alexandropol's substantial Greek quarter, known as Urmonts, ... From Gurdjieff: Mysticism, Contemplation, and Exercises (2019) by Joseph Azize: p. 23: First, he was raised in Alexandropol and Kars, in or near what is now Armenia, in a family of ancient Greek descent, whose domestic language was chiefly Armenian. ... Ouspensky brings some contemporary color to this, saying of Alexandropol: ... "There is also the Greek quarter, the least interesting of all outwardly, where G.'s house was situated, ... p. 83: That both of these traditions [referring to Neoplatonism and the Athonite "Prayer of the Heart"] are Greek is not accidental: Gurdjieff identified as a Greek, and considered Greek to be his mother tongue. The quote on page 23 is referring to his mother as well; he is more clear on his position in a 2019 article that he published on his blog (here): We need do no more than note some minor mistakes. Gurdjieff's mother was Greek, not Armenian, and he did not just acquire some Greek and Turkish, he was fluent in Greek and at least good in Turkish, and also in Russian, even if he spoke the latter with a Caucasian accent. From Gurdjieff Reconsidered: The Life, the Teachings, the Legacy (2019) by Roger Lipsey: p. 11: In his major book, Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson (which developed across multiple languages from the mid-1920s through to its English-language publication in 1950), Gurdjieff was ferociously satirical where ancient Greek culture was concerned—though he was born to Greek parents and spoke Greek from his earliest days (as well as Armenian, and soon Russian and Turkish).15 p. 316: 15. It will come as a surprise to readers familiar with the Gurdjieff legacy that both of his parents were Greek; the assumption has long been that his mother, Evdokia, was Armenian. From G.I.Gurdjieff: A Life (2020) by Paul Beekman Taylor: pp. 13–14: Alexandropol records have Ivan's wife as Evdokia Elepterovna, but on Ivan's death announcement, 25 June 1918, her name is given as M[unreadable] Kalerovna. The patronymic Kalerovna is given to Evdokia also on an 1885 document, and the French death notice of Gurdjieff's mother has "Evdoki Kaleroff" as her name, but I find the name Kaler only in Tyrol records from the fifteenth century. I am tempted to believe that Kaler reflects the Greek kalos "good, beautiful." The given and surnames of Gurdjieff's mother have semantic convergences, since Greek kalos "good" is compatible in meaning with Greek Eudoxia "Woman of Good Reputation." Since married women take their husband's family name almost always, I wonder why she was not identified as Evdokia Gurdjieff, as Gurdjieff's wife was identified on her travel documents. In a Church Slavonic register, Ivan and his wife are identified as Orthodox Christians. Gurdjieff's grandmother on his mother's side, Sophia, nicknamed Padji ("sister" in Turkish) was a well-regarded midwife who did not speak a word of Russian. His grandfather on his mother's side was Elepheriadis, a distinctly Greek form. Though Evdokia was thought by many to be Armenian, her name, Евдокия, is a Cyrillic form of Greek Eudoxia ("good thought"). The French form of the name on her death certificate is Eudoxie. Gurdjieff, who gave his mother's name to his youngest daughter, pronounced it in Russian fashion Yevdokeeya with stress on the penultimate syllable. If it seems odd that an Armenian woman would carry a Greek name, it is apparent that that Gurdjieff's mother was Greek as well as his father, confirming Gurdjieff's frequent assertion that his mother tongue was Greek. Gurdjieff's German papers, which he carried during the Second World War, identified him as Greek. p. 270: At the age of twenty-three, in 1871, when he was twenty-four years of age, Gurdjieff's father, Ivan, married eighteen-year old Evdokia Eleptherovna (b. 1852), the daughter of a Greek merchant Elepther Eleptherov, Elepheriadis in its Greek form.

Excluding the background of his mother altogether is an alternative option, but it is not an ideal solution in my opinion, and i don't think User:Londonlinks would agree to it. Personally, i am ok with either of the two following summaries, which are neutral; though, i am open to other suggestions as well. The second summary is what the article currently has.

His father Ivan Ivanovich Gurdjieff (Greek: Ιωάννης Γεωργιάδης) was Greek, while there are conflicting views as to whether his mother was Armenian or Greek.

His father Ivan Ivanovich Gurdjieff (Greek: Ιωάννης Γεωργιάδης) was Greek; the long-held view is that Gurdjieff's mother was Armenian, but some scholars have recently suggested that she was a Greek named Evdokia Eleptherovna or Kalerovna.

Demetrios1993 (talk) 01:37, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

• Londonlinks, you wanted an opportunity to summarize your opinion after reviewing the resources. I would like to hear your summary from your point of view briefly. Please limit yourself to under 300 words. I fear you will not be happy unless your opinion is chosen over Demetrios1993, which labels you as a stonewaller. If I am wrong in this case, then please share a suggestion that moves us toward WP:CONSENSUS. Can we work together to improve this article? Share your summary in a response edit to this bullet point.

• Please do your best to summarize only your own perspectives and resist the temptation to respond to/argue with each other's summaries or attack your fellow editors (WP:GOODFAITH). I'm intrigued by your passion and want us to find a reasonable solution. Pistongrinder (talk) 23:28, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Pistongrinder for your reference to stonewalling, which however is surely not applicable in this case. Status quo stonewalling is opposition to a proposed change without stating a substantive rationale based in policy, guidelines and conventions or participating in good faith discussion. The policy which is in issue is original material. Wikipedia articles must not contain original research . The phrase "original research" is used on Wikipedia to refer to material such as facts and assumptions for which no reliable, published sources exist. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources. The material which User:Demetrios1993 has relied on does not refer to any reliable source to suggest that Gurdjieff's mother was Greek. He quotes from "Deconstructing Gurdjieff: Biography of a Spiritual Magician (2017)" by Tobias Churton:

• pp. 19–25: Archival Records: [...] "One thing we can be reasonably certain of is that both Gurdjieff's parents were Greek." User:Demetrios1993 omitted however to include the part in brackets, which presumably he had read. This merely refers to a record of a Mr Ivan Kurchogli and his wife Evdokia, but no source suggested that this couple were the parents of Gurdjieff - only that if they were his parents then both of them were Greek, because of Evdokia's name.

The archival record quoted stated that a Mr Ivan Kurchogli was born in 1848, which meant that he would have been only 68 years old instead of 82, when Gurdjieff said he last saw his father alive in 1916. The gravestone of Gurdjieff's father in Gyumri states that he was born in 1834, and not 1848. Ivan Kurchogli was clearly not Gurdjieff's father and nobody has ever said that this was his name. As for Evdokia, whether that was the name of Gurdjieff's mother rather than Yeva, the Evdokia referred to in the archival record could not have been Gurdjieff's mother, not just because she was married to Mr Kurchogli who was not Gurdjieff's father, but because of extant photographs of Gurdjieff's mother in 1925, which are not that of a 73 year old woman ie., the Evdokia who the record states was born in 1852.

The summary should therefore revert to stating the fact as confirmed by Gurdjieff's nephew Valentin Anastasieff and by Gurdjieff's alleged son Michael de Salzmann and other contempories that Gurdjieff's father was Greek and his mother Armenian. If the speculation contained in the material referred to by User:Demetrios1993 needs to be referred to at all, then it could be cited in an explanatory reference section, along with other opinons of different authors.

The parentage of people of international standing is of importance to illustrate their background and upbringing and is not without interest to the general public. Londonlinks (talk) 02:42, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

I should also respond to Demetrios1993 stating that I have mis-quoted the part from Mr Churton's book which Demetrios1993 failed to include in brackets [....]. The full extract is here: Mr Churton states that one thing we can be reasonably certain of is that both Gurdjieff's parents were Greek. - which is based on his assumption that if Gurdjieff was born to Ivan Ivanovitch (Kurchogli) and Evdokia (Elephtherovna) in 1877, as many official records maintain, then he was most certainly a Greek. No offical record is cited however by any author to support this assumption. Mr Churton refers to a record unearthed by Mr Paul Beekman Taylor following information given to him by a Mr Benham, who received it from a Georgian scholar Manana Khomeriki, that the brother of Gurdjieff's father was called Vasilii Kurdchogli. This too is not supported by any source, but in any event, the record found by Mr Beekman Taylor in the Armenian Central Archives regarding Ivan Kurchogli (sic) and his wife Evdokia confirms nothing other than their ages and that they were married in 1871. This is not a reliable basis for suggesting that the Kurchogli couple were Gurdjieff's parents. On the contrary, their names if not their ages rule them out, regardless of any other facts. In particular, in the context of this page, it says nothing to suggest that Gurdjieff's mother may have been Greek. Wikipedia has to be based on reliable and verifiable sources. Londonlinks (talk) 23:12, 21 August 2023 (UTC) Londonlinks (talk) 12:45, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Third Opinion

• Thank you, both, for your summaries above. While I've read your arguments a few times over now, it was much easier to see your viewpoints consolidated.

Ultimately, Wikipedia content edits must pass the tests of WP:Verifiability, WP:No original research, and WP:NPOV, according to WP:5P2. From WP:CCPOL, "These policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Wikipedia articles. Because they complement each other, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another."

WP:Verifiability: It seems to me that the meat of the argument hinges on the reliability of Demetrios1993's referenced sources. After reviewing them, I have determined they are written by notable experts in their field and published by reputable, scholarly publishers. We could, of course, post them to the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard to get consensus there as well, but they pass every test. I believe any other editor will come to my same conclusion. These sources are reliable, notable, and verifiable.

WP:No original research: Additionally, the "synthesis" argument presented against these sources is unfounded and due to a misunderstanding of the policy. WP:SYNTH is a policy subcategory under "No Original Research" that restricts Wikipedia editors from using pieces of information from multiple sources to come to conclusions not explicitly stated by those sources. Historians are allowed to synthesize information. Wikipedia editors are not.

Furthermore, it appears to me that Londonlinks's argument for not incorporating the speculative viewpoint of Gurdjieff's Greek mother is entirely based on WP:SYNTH, which contradicts directly with the reliable sources policy: "This means that we publish only the analysis, views, and opinions of reliable authors, and not those of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves."

WP:NPOV: It's important to note that the proposed edit does not omit Gurdjieff's potentially Armenian parentage. Instead, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic are represented fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, per WP:NPOV. It would, therefore, be against WP policy to exclude Gurdjieff's mother's possible Greek heritage, as we would not be representing a neutral point of view on the subject.

I am sympathetic to the time and effort that has gone into this continued debate. It's clear to me that both editors care deeply about the improvement of this article. However, I cannot argue with the facts. The sources cited are verifiable. The proposed edit represents explicit statements made by the verifiable sources. And the proposed edit represents a neutral point of view of all published perspectives. Time to move forward. Pistongrinder (talk) 17:59, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Pistongrinder for your assistance. The whole issue raised by Demetrios1993 regarding Gurdjieff's mother rests upon a marriage certificate of a Mr Kurch-ogli which is held at the National Archive of Armenia It is referred to by Mr Paul Beekman Taylor in his book G. I Gurdjieff a Life (2020). who states:

pp. 12-13: According to the Central Archives of Armenia (File 47, Description 2, n25), he [G's father] was born Ivan Ivanovich Kurchogli (Georgian form Vano Kurdji-ogli) and at the age of twenty-three, in 1871, he married eighteen-year old Evdokia Eleptherovna (b. 1852), the daughter of Elepther Eleptheroff.

The archival record however clearly says nothing about Mr Kurch-ogli being Gurdjieff's father. It simply records the marriage on 12th November 1871 of a Mr Ivan Kurch-ogli to Evdokia Elevtoria "Elevtorovia" (not "Elepherovna"); and that she was 18 years old (and thus born in 1853 not 1852 as Mr Taylor suggests). So she would have been only 72 years old in 1925 when she died, whereas Gurdjieff's mother was much older: The family list of Gyumri residents dated 1907 correctly records the name of Gurdjieff's father as Ivan Ivanovitch Gurdjieff and his wife Eva: and all of Gurdjieff's contemporaries state that she was Armenian.

The marriage certificate of Mr Kurch-ogli and his Greek wife Evdokia dated 1871 (when Gurdjieff was already four years old) does not correspond to the ages of Gurdjieff's parents. Londonlinks (talk) 00:45, 24 September 2023 (UTC) Londonlinks (talk) 09:45, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

The problem here is that you are using your personal logic and reasoning to make these assertions when reliable sources do not have consensus on this topic. That means the article must reflect the opinion of reliable sources in order to be neutral, which is our job as editors. Pistongrinder (talk) 04:43, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I would very much agree with Pistongrinder here. Articles summarize what reliable sources have to say. When the sources themselves are not in agreement, the article should reflect and describe that lack of consensus, not "take a side" based upon an editor's own thoughts on the matter. In this case, since there is clearly such substantial disagreement among the available sources for this matter, the article should describe what they disagree on and why, but not take one side or the other. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:08, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I entirely understand the need for neutrality but I think a line has to be drawn somewhere, otherwise another editor could just as easily write that although the long-held view is that G was a philosopher, some scholars say based upon recent research that he was a "charlatan" and "a friend of Stalin" etc.

We should not as an editor change the accepted fact of the ethnicity of Gurdjieff's parents based on the belief of one author (now propagated by others) who argues that the marriage record of a Mr Kurch-ogli dated 1871 is that of Gurdjieff's father.

We should instead as an editor be willing to write that Gurdjieff's father was Greek and his mother Armenian, but add a footnote if it is deemed relevant to refer to the recent research of scholars who have disputed these facts. Londonlinks (talk) 07:36, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I understand you think that, but at this point, three other people have disagreed with you. I think it's about time to move on. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 11:29, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Your argument, Londonlinks is a slippery slope fallacy, since such a case would be disregarded as WP:UNDUE were it not for multiple verified sources reporting the same thing. Pistongrinder (talk) 20:57, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Anyway I can appreciate the points being made which seeks to maintain impartiality and accordingly have left the "long-held belief" in place. However, that belief seems rather inapt when the "belief" was expressed by G's own blood relations about their grandmother and aunt - and his contemporaries, who lived with G and his mother, such as Olga de Hartmann. Londonlinks (talk) 05:23, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you both User:Seraphimblade and User:Pistongrinder for your input. I believe we have now moved on from this topic (or dead horse) and the conflicting view of scholars have been included by way of footnotes. I think the footnotes of User:Demetrios1993 could be reduced in size to still make his point, but that is simply my own opinion.

I should add that the rendition of Gurdjieff's name in Greek seems quite unnecessary on the English page and conflicts with Romanization which states: "If an entity has a widely accepted conventional English name, that name is to be used." If there no objection then I would delete the Greek version of Gurdjieff's name as being otiose, but I shall wait for the outcome of any discussion if there is to be one to avoid treading on anyone's toes. Maybe this requires a separate section.Londonlinks (talk) 22:43, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Where exactly? I'm not noticing a Greek form of Gurdjieff's name. Pistongrinder (talk) 20:40, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

The Greek transcription has since been removed by User:Demetrios1993 as a result of my suggestion. Londonlinks (talk) 05:26, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Londonlinks, you asked me to reduce the size of the references, while at the same time you included three different references to Bennett (1962, 1973, 1984), two different references to Needleman (1996, 2009), two different references to Moore (1980, 1999), one unrelated reference to Tchekhovitch (2006) who doesn't say anything about his mother's background, and one outdated reference to Azize (2014); you were already aware of the latter's more recent publications (2019), where he supported a Greek background. Now, i don't have a problem trimming my references, but you also need to take care of the aforementioned ones you added; regardless of the fact that we have bundled everything into a single footnote, having more than one reference per author repeating the same view is unnecessary. Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:11, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Thank you for pointing that out User:Demetrios1993 as two wrongs don't make a right. I will delete the repeat references and hopefully you will trim down your footnotes to an appropriate size.Londonlinks (talk) 06:21, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

References