Talk:Black Hebrew Israelites

revise

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Remove falsely believe. There is no proof to this statement and studies if found in reputable sources and scholars are now reviewing the latter 67.197.45.79 (talk) 04:30, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

I think "falsely" is a recent addition. While the BHI's ancestry claims are patently ridiculous from a historical or scientific persepctive, this is a religious claim and we do not say "falsely" about religious claims no matter how unlikely they may seem to people who are not of that religion. Wikipedia does not pick sides in matters of theology! To pick on this one religion by saying "falsely" while not doing the same for the equally unlikely claims of many other religions would be unfair. I have removed "falsely", thus restoring the status quo wording.

I am not going to remove "believe" for obvious reasons. That would be to endorse a religious claim as fact and we don't do that. --DanielRigal (talk) 13:58, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Actually, the ancestral claims of Hebrew Israelites are based in reality. Genetic testing of my own DNA as an African American has proved that I and very many of my direct ancestors from Africa are directly descended from Ethiopian Jews and we are all distantly related to the Ashkenazi Jewish population from Medieval Erfurt, Germany that has produced the Ashkenazi Jews who constitute much of the world's accepted Jewish population. The historical records are also rife with accounts that described the Jewish people of antiquity as descendants of Ethiopians and Egyptians. Hebrew Israelites are falsely accused of historical revisionism, as many believe African American claims of descent from Israelites, Nubians and Egyptians to be hogwash, but these groups among others are exactly who my DNA and the DNA of my enslaved ancestors in America and my ancestors from Africa are revealed to be genetic matches for when our DNA is directly compared to ancient samples that have been excavated and tested. Bar-Moshe (talk) 00:53, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Snore. The genetic analysis around this stuff is as dubious as the underpinning scripture. But as mentioned above, 'falsely' shouldn't be appearing anywhere, per MOS:DOUBT. Everyone's claims, as supported by reliable sources, should be portrayed fairly and with respect to NPOV, and unsupported accusations should not be allowed to be cast in any direction. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:31, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Issues: Inadequate content, anti-Blackness, erasure of Black Jews

@User:Doug Weller, @User:Admiral Farmer, @User:Antiok 1pie. The article as exists has multiple issues I'd like to address. First, it should be obvious that BHIs are in no way, shape, or form Jewish with the exception of those few BHIs such as Capers Funnye who have converted to Judaism. That BHIs are appropriative and that some are violent extremists is also obvious. However, I would advise caution when editing this article to avoid racial bias on Wikipedia.

The BHIs originated at a time when many white Christian denominations openly preached that Black people are the cursed descendants of Ham. That is the historical backdrop of the BHI claim that Black people are not only NOT cursed, but rather the chosen. That this historical background information is never mentioned in the article is astounding and is evidence that the article is insufficient. That the voices of actual Black Jews are mentioned nowhere in the article is another glaring omission. Black Jewish writers such as Shais Rishon, and I'm sure others, have written about the BHI appropriation of Black Jewish identity.

The sentence in the opening paragraph about the SPLC considering BHIs to collectively constitute a "hate group" is contextless and I would argue inaccurate. The SPLC's views can be listed in the paragraph where the SPLC and ADL are mentioned. The SPLC states on their website that "SPLC uses the term Radical Hebrew Israelite to differentiate from the greater Hebrew Israelite faith...SPLC no longer refers to these groups as solely Black Hebrew Israelites...there are non-radical sects of the Hebrew Israelite faith who identify as Black Hebrew Israelites". This indicates that the SPLC does in fact distinguish between extremist and non-extremist BHI sects, a nuance that the current sentence obscures. It would be judicious to acknowledge these nuances to avoid anti-Blackness, stereotyping, and the erasure of Black Jews. I have also placed notices on the talk pages for WikiProject African diaspora, WikiProject Countering systemic bias, and WikiProject Judaism, to alert editors to some of the concerns I have raised. I hope we can improve the article together with these questions in mind. Thank you. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:34, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Paragraph breaks would've helped make this a bit more legible. That said, the point on SPLC seems valid. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:05, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

I think that the sentence It has been described as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center doesn't really fit in the second sentence of the lead (although I don't have strong feelings about it). I will move it to the last paragraph, along with the rest of SPLC's comments, and add some more secondary sources, including one which confirms that the SPLC describes the Black Hebrew Israelites as a hate group. Antiok 1pie (talk) 00:49, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Why call them black? Who are the White Jewish people?

Why call them black? 76.137.30.102 (talk) 02:10, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

We name articles using the names that the reliable sources refer to them as. Further details are in WP:COMMONAME. DanielRigal (talk) 18:36, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

The other names are also mentioned in the lead. "Hebrew Israelites" "African Israelites" etc...JamieBrown2011 (talk) 08:59, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Does anyone know if Messianic Judaism is the same thing as BHI? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 06:53, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

No. BHI is its own thing, separate from MJ. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:06, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Street Preaching

"This primarily gained notice in the news through their street preaching that purportedly targeted students of Covington Catholic High School (Kentucky) in January 2019. "

The street preaching was well known well before this event. That may be where the editor first heard of them, but for larges swaths of society, that was not how they popped on their radar. 2601:41:4300:78E0:296E:FB89:1716:2F74 (talk) 21:00, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Excerpt: The Origins of Ashkenaz, Ashkenazic Jews, and Yiddish- 21 June 2017

The Origins of Ashkenaz, Ashkenazic Jews, and Yiddish- 21 June 2017[

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2017.00087 JewScholar (talk) 06:36, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

"The largest study to date of ancient DNA from Jewish individuals reveals unexpected genetic subgroups in medieval German Ashkenazi Jews and sheds light on the “founder event” in which a small population gave rise to most present-day Ashkenazi Jews." © 2023 by The President and Fellows of Harvard College Ancient DNA Provides New Insights into Ashkenazi Jewish History JewScholar (talk) 06:42, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Please explain how these apply to this article, and the changes you want to make to the article. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:52, 13 December 2023 (UTC)