Talk:Maturidism

Untitled

One of the earliest and most basic texts on Islamic theology, al-Aqeedah al-Tahawiyyah (The Tahawi Doctrine of Belief), is a Maturidi text.

This assertion interested me since I know that al-Tahawai was a follow of Imam Abu Hanafi and since he wrote it why would it be a Maturidi text? Not that this article is wrong... it might be... but, I think it should be at least clarified and should cite a good source. gren 13:12, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I also think their should be a reference for this...

Ive deleted the link to "Maturidi Creed" - no one should use the Encyclopedia for Propaganda

Additional comment inserted by SBader: Other peoples' comments should not be edited even if wrong, and I shall not do so. However as the link from "Imam Abu Hanafi" leads to "page does not exist", I must explain that it is correctly "Imam Abu Hanifah", whose followers are referred to as "Hanafi". Now both names can lead to a Wikipedia page. "Their" (should be "there")(penultimate line) and the lack of an apostrophe in "Ive"(final line) are non-misleading errors in a comment and can be ignored.SBader (talk) 20:57, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

The Text in Article 'a Maturidi ( Arabic: ماتريدي يا قحبة)' the arabic portion is vandalized

It needs to be corrected to '( Arabic: ماتريدي)' by deleting 'يا قحبة ' which is an added text not pertinent to the article, but is an abuse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.181.167.165 (talk) 17:23, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Correct translation of phrases.

During the post renaissance explosion of exotic studies in Europe many names and phrases were translated or transliterated without the required degree of accuracy. Avicenna, Confucius and many others including Maturidi. The latter is a phrase consisting of two words in Arabic. Ma (what) and (Turidi) (you want). I should not enter into a theological explanation of the phrase, but it is certainly two words and should be "Ma Turidi". I hesitate to edit this centuries long error, some editor will change it back with a lame excuse, but at some point someone should, not only in Wikipedia, but in the world of academe.SBader (talk) 21:15, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

No history section

Maturidism is a major school of theology, and arguably larger (in terms of number of adherents) than either Ash'arism or Atharism. That there's no section for the school's history and development is disappointing and unhelpful to readers. Can we start compiling a list of sources, such as the Encyclopedia of Islam, to get a history section started? MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:51, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, the article is in dire need of improvement. It hasn't bubbled up on my to-do list, but I'd be happy to share sources if anyone would like to work on it. A good place to start is Oxford Bibliographies. The first section is about al-Maturidi himself, but most of the sources also include history of the school. A separate section on Maturidism behind the paywall lists more specialized sources. Aside from these, there's also Madelung's Māturīdiyya entry in EI2. Eperoton (talk) 23:16, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

@Eperoton: Let's assume that you and I and, guessing based on past success at Wikiprojects, two other editors decide to help with this. Would it be easier in terms of volunteer hours to begin with the article on the man, on the movement, or both simultaneously? MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:14, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

@MezzoMezzo: Abu Mansur al-Maturidi is in significantly better shape than this article, but it seems that an exposition of Maturidi's views usually plays a significant role in discussions of Maturidism, so someone who's engaging with RSs on Maturidism will probably find things to add to the other article too. Rudolph distinguishes three periods in the development of Maturidi theology: "the formation of the Ḥanafī theological tradition in the third/ninth century, its intellectual elaboration and transformation by Abū Manṣūr al-Māturīdī (d. 333/944) and the emergence of Māturīdism as a well-established kalām school in the late fifth/eleventh and early sixth/twelfth century". Madelung notes: "The dominant influence of al-Maturidi's thought and works on the later representatives of the school is, however, evident, and the latter did not deviate more substantially from his doctrine than did the later Ash'aris from the doctrine of al-Ash'ari." Eperoton (talk) 00:22, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

@Eperoton: Dang, you got a good amount of material right there. Give me a few days, and I'll see what I can come up with either at the local library or, barring that, a Google Books search. I think we already have a basic skeleton for the history section based on what you found with Rudolph. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:14, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

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Ethnic pandering

The reference does not denounce Arabian sources, so such WP:OR should not be there. There have been many Arabian scholars from Syria who were Maturidi and served in the Ottoman courts. The Maturidi all rely on Arabic hadiths and the Arabian Prophet (SAW). So to say that they do not rely on Arabic traditions or sources is false. Maturidiyya is a dynamic school that has Arabs, Turks, South Asian (Indians and Pakistanis), and Persians all involved. Hhjd11 (talk) 06:41, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Here is a quote of what the source [1] exactly says:

"The 'combination of the Sofdian-Samanid cultural matrix and Al-Maturidiyya paved the way for a Persianized, rather than Arabized, understanding of Islam."

As we can see the author makes it clear that it was the SOFDIAN-SAMANID mixture with Maturidiyya that LATER LED TO a Persianized understanding of Islam, it does not say that Maturidiyya does not rely on Arabic sources/traditions, nor does this speak of Maturidiyya as a school. It is talking about a separate phenomenon that happened later because in part of the mixing of Sofdian-Samanid culture and Maturiddiyya. Hhjd11 (talk) 06:54, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

@Hhjd11: Well said, I agree with your point of view!--TheEagle107 (talk) 07:10, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Maturidi was often found among the Turks and Persians, further spread over Asia via this Persian-influenced tradition. This is also the reason why Turks use Persian expressions for Islamic vocabulary such as "namaz" instead of "salat". In contrast would probably be the Hanbali udnerstanding of Islam with much les Persianized influences (no Div and Peri, Salat instead of Namaz, less theology but more hadith and scripture). Of course it is not that Maturidi himself established a "Persinized" version of Islam in contrast to a genuine "Arabic Islam". The Arabic Islam isn't even more genuine either, rather a reaction towards Persinized Islam, Greece incluences and Turkic interpretations, the "Arabic Islam", was just one of many competing sects during this period. Competing sects had been common and a doctrinal teaching of Islam had not been established yet. All later depictions of early Islamic period are just view retroperspectivly, and for Arabs called Arabic, for Turks called Turkic (yes, some Turks even trace back their Islam to an encounter between Attila the Hun and Muhammad), and so on. The fact we do not deal with Arabic culture, but a symbiosis of Turkic and Persian culture, anymore than we talk about Islam in Central Asia or Sunni Persia, should be noted, since they even have another terminological usage than the rather Arabic-Islamic cultures (which often had been in battle against the alledged alterings of Persinized Islam).

When the source states "The 'combination of the Sofdian-Samanid cultural matrix and Al-Maturidiyya paved the way for a Persianized, rather than Arabized, understanding of Islam", it is quiet clear, it refers to an Turko-Persian udnerstanding of Islam.

While re-checking I see, it really mentiones Sufism by the way. To make it clear, it states. But Sufism is also attributed to the Sogdian-Samanid culture. Thus it is both Sufism and Sassanid Islam that leads in combination with Maturidi-Islam to the Persinized understanding. Well, I guess it needs another edit, since we can not keep Sufism in, but Maturidi out.

"The combination of the Sogdian-Samanid cultural matix and Al-Maturidiyya paved the way for a Persianized, rather than Arabized, understanding of Islam. The former (Sogdian-Samanid) drew on the Pre-Islamic Sassanid political, cultural and musical traditions and prioritized Sufi Islam." --VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 11:59, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

This article is in a dire state and in need of a lot of improvement. We should focus on what matters the most, instead of focusing on controversial issues.--TheEagle107 (talk) 21:29, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

@TheEagle107, yes, the statement has no place in the lede as it does nothing to describe the Maturidi creed. Hhjd11 (talk) 07:57, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

@VenusFeuerFalle, what you write is mostly WP:OR. Sofdian-Samanid culture combined with Maturidi theology and any suspected phenomenon that results from it has nothing to do with describing what Maturidi is. Therefore it does not belong in the lede.

Also you say "...Thus it is both Sufism and Sassanid Islam" and also "''The former (Sogdian-Samanid) drew on the Pre-Islamic Sassanid political..."

First of all, there is no such thing as "Sassanid Islam." Also, even if the Samanid Empire was preceded by Sassanids, it is a political change and has nothing to do with Maturidi theology. Hhjd11 (talk) 08:00, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

If anything, the source is talking about the development of Islamic institutions in Central Asia, where scholars of the region developed their own schools of understanding of the religion. It is totally unrelated to what the Maturidi theology is and therefore does not belong in the lede. Hhjd11 (talk) 08:12, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Maybe you are right. I also thnik your argumentation is more plausible now, although I personally disagree with the lack of ambiguity, but the source does indeed not support the claim, that Maturidi itself is a Persiniazed Islam. although it is obvious if we observe the impact on Persian-Islam on Turks who became identified with Maturidi. And this is the point it becomes indeed OR. I am sorry for the troubles.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 23:47, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

History section

I have added a history section. Would appreciate if u guys help in improving it. @MezzoMezzo @Eperoton Mohammed Shaykh (talk) 12:40, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

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{{WikiProject Islam|class=|importance=}} Mohammed Shaykh (talk) 12:53, 13 February 2024 (UTC)