Talk:Odilo Globocnik

Untitled

Is there anybody around who could bring my text into real proper English? As a foreigner, I feel some help would be necessary and very welcome. Thank you. --Peter Witte 18:40, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I gave it my best shot, cleaned up the diction and made a couple changes to make it more NPOV. Ellsworth 14:50, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. --Peter Witte 17:10, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

rumors or cover-ups about Globocniks death

An anonymous user recently added a few sentences, that the "varied stories of his death, however, were simply cover stories". Now another(?) user more or less insists to insert this in the article on de.wikipedia (de:Odilo Globocnik) as well.

I am not able to find any evidence concerning this claims. A weblink or the name (and ISBN) of some printed publication about this would be very appreciated. Currently it is only an assertion. --Tsui 10:14, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

October 13, 1941 he received a verbal order from Himmler - any documentation on this, communication intercept,etc? Few orders of the magnitude of ordering the building of a large infrastucture - ie camps - and diverting men,$,materials would go very far in the German Army by having someone say "oh Himmler told me it was all right". He was only a Police Leader in one district - sending out a request for $,men,etc and the diverging of trains to his new pet project must have something besides "verbal orders" - citation needed ( at least cite where the "verbal orders" idea first arose.159.105.80.141 (talk) 16:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

From the appropriate page of "Valhalla's Warriors": "ON October 13, 1941, he received a verbal order from Heinrich Himmler to start immediate construction on Belzec, the first extermination camp in the General Government..." Relata refero (talk) 11:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Found the book by Terry Goldsworthy - a detective in the Australian police force. Do you know what evidence Goldsworthy gives for his knowledge of this verbal statement ( ie where did he hear, talk to someone who heard this, document, etc ). Was this documented evidence or detective deduction - ie it must have been verbal because there is nothing else. I find this book only on sites trying to unload it at discount prices. The book appears to be secondarily sourced - summaries of other peoples writing - with a good bit of imagination thrown. Not one historian seems to have reviewed the book - with the mammoth assertions you would think the book would be a major stir in the holocaust community - no one appears to want to go that far out on a slim limb.159.105.80.141 (talk) 15:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Ancestry

He could claim partly German ancestry? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.176.186.118 (talk) 00:13, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

No, he was a germanificated Slovene.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.223.66.237 (talk) 19:34, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Rank

The picture shows clearly the collar patches of a Standartenführer (Colonel), Ranks and insignia of the Schutzstaffel. An Unterscharführer is a Sergeant, which is much too low. I don´t have exact informations about his last rank in 1945, probably something more than a Colonel, but definitely higher than a Sergeant. I changed that.(HerkusMonte (talk) 18:24, 30 June 2008 (UTC))

Dipl. Ing.

It's not normal practice in English to prefix someone's name with a masters-level qualification, and to me it seems weird to start the article with anything other than the person's name. The qualification, if it needs to be mentioned at all, should surely be put in the 'early life' para, after 'Globocnik enrolled in a civilian high school and graduated in July 1923 with honours.' (If that is indeed when he got the dipl ing.) Thoughts? Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 15:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that particular phrasing grinds on me every time I read it. Given that I'm clearly not alone in this, I've gone ahead and removed it. If there's an argument for mentioning it later in the article, i have no objection to doing so, though I don't think it's especially important to the topic of Globocnik generally. — Gavia immer (talk) 17:16, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I think that's better. Thanks. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 14:08, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Odilo Globocnik

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Odilo Globocnik's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "William L. Shirer p 349-350":

• From Nazi persecution of the Catholic Church in Germany: William L. Shirer; The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich; Secker & Warburg; London; 1960; pp. 349–350.
• From Catholic Church and Nazi Germany during World War II: Shirer, 1990, pp. 349–350.
• From Catholic bishops in Nazi Germany: William L. Shirer; The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich; Secker & Warburg; London; 1960; p 349–350.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 10:22, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just added archive links to one external link on Odilo Globocnik. Please take a moment to review my edit. You may add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:

• Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.retecivica.trieste.it/triestecultura/new/musei/risiera_san_sabba/brochure/Risiera%20inglese%20per%20e-brochure.pdf

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Globočnik vs Globocnik vs Globotschnig

The article uses the Slovenian spelling, Globočnik, even for his Nazi years. I have hard time believing he would use non-German diacritics as a Nazi official, but I don't know. Can anyone clarify it? 37.190.146.24 (talk) 23:00, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Birth papers show Globočnik. He himself used Globočnik when signing official papers as a Nazi official up until the end of the war. Otherwise his name would frequently be typewritten as Globocnik in official correspondence as the German alphabet and typewriters did not contain the Č letter in question and secretaries just substituted it with a C, which was latter apparently taken up by historians as well (my personal theory is that non-Slovene historians did not particularly care about/notice the difference in spelling, while Slovene historians probably did it on purpose to distance themselves and the nation from him).

"The only study coming from a Slovene historian (Tone Ferenc) was published in Italy. And even in there he was named Odilo Globocnik, even though he himself [Globočnik] always signed his surname as Globočnik." "At his childhood home they spoke German, even Globočnik considered himself a German, yet there is no proof that his [Slovene] ancestry proved any kind of a mental burden for him. He never tried to officialy germanise his surname."

I think it's better to use Globočnik as he himself used it and apparently never had a problem with it. But it is important to unify the article as currently the page and first mention at the top of the article spell Globocnik, the rest uses Globočnik. Move the page to "Odilo Globočnik" and set up forwarding from "Odilo Globocnik"? Use Globočnik throughout the article and at the very top as well, but write next to it "also known as Globocnik and Globotschnig"? I am not a regular wikipedian so I hope somebody else will do this. 2001:1470:FACA:510:8279:E6CC:D210:EBDC (talk) 12:14, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Done. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:57, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

References

Where was he from?

Where was he born? Tržič is the name of two different places. One is located in Slovenia (and had the German name of Neumarktl in the past), another is located in Italy (called Monfalcone). There seems to be confusion in the article, his birthplace is mentioned as Tržič (Neumarktl) but then it says it is close to Trieste which would be the other Tržič (Monfalcone). Ideas? 78.153.33.205 (talk) 10:45, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Picture of van is incorrectly labeled

The picture is of an everyday commonly used van. No modifications have been made. Please correctly identify it as just a van and not one that was used to kill anyone. Curtless x (talk) 05:00, 23 February 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Curtless x (talk • contribs) 04:58, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 14 May 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. The fact that the page was originally Odilo Globocnik but was moved without discussion is reason enough to move this page back to the original title. Additionally though, the RM initiator has demonstrated that "Odilo Globocnik" is more frequently used in modern sources.(closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 17:27, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

---

Odilo Globočnik → Odilo Globocnik – Overwhelming common name in English. Check Google Scholar, NGRAMS, etc. virtually all English language sources spell it without the diacritic. Suggested on my user talk by Ermenrich (t · c) buidhe 12:15, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support. This move was done without proper discussion and based on a single Slovenian source which would be prejudiced to write the (originally Slovenian) name with the diacritic. It is also a newspaper, Dnevnik (Slovenia), which should not be considered a reliable source for this subject area. NGrams doesn't even find the spelling with a diacritic if you search in German [1] and barely registers the spelling with the diacritic in English [2]. [edit]: Compare also the results at Google scholar, showing usage of the spelling without a diacritic [3] and not recognizing a spelling with the diacritic. It includes results from the Journal of Central European History, and other high quality sources.--Ermenrich (talk) 12:48, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. If Globočnik consistently wrote his own name Globočnik (as stated above), then that is the more accurate spelling. English sources overwhelmingly write Dvorak for Antonín Dvořák[4], but we wouldn't therefore move that page to Dvorak because Dvořák is more accurate. The same reasoning applies here. Doremo (talk) 13:10, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

He clearly didn't write his name that way though - the only source we have for him writing that way is a Slovene newspaper, which fails the sourcing requirements for Holocaust topics. World Cat shows a lot of Slovene sources also writing it without a diacritic, as well as all English language biographies: [5].--Ermenrich (talk) 13:13, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

His signature (with a č) is here. Doremo (talk) 13:20, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

That looks like the dot on the i to me - it's not placed over the c. The text immediately below identifies him as "Globocnik" as well.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

It is a č. If it were a dot, there would be a second one at the left, over Odilo. Doremo (talk) 13:23, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Assuming that your interpretation is correct - we would need an actual scholarly source that he spelled it with a diacritic, not wp:OR. Even if he did spell it that way, it would not trump the fact that the vast majority of specialist literature spells it without a diacritic, including titles in Slovene, Polish, Czech, German, etc, as can be seen at WorldCat. We don't spell Shakespeare "Shakspear" because his signature looks that way.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:28, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Here is another of Globočnik's signatures, clearly with č. Doremo (talk) 13:29, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

There are also plenty of print sources with the spelling Globočnik, such as this. The fact that German or English typewriters or fonts lacked a č is why it is often printed with c, exactly the same as Dvorak for Dvořák. Doremo (talk) 13:35, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

The č spelling is also found in (more carefully spelled) specialist literature, such as here and here. Doremo (talk) 13:41, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) An original newspaper from 1938 is WP:OR, as is collecting Globocnik's signature. These modern scholarly sources in Sloevene, Polish, Czech, etc., certainly aren't leaving out the diacritic because of font issues: [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12]. I could go on. Even if you can find some modern sources using the spelling with a diacritic, that does not change the fact that most do not.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:42, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Wrong. Antonín Dvořák is most often spelled that way in recent English sources. [13] Globocnik isn't commonly spelled with a diacritic. (t · c) buidhe 13:56, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

It depends what you specify in the search string; for example, this or this or this. Regardless of the output, the spelling with diacritics is more accurate. Doremo (talk) 14:17, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Otherwise, any number of other examples can be cited: Jurga Ivanauskaitė is more commonly Jurga Ivanauskaite, Gheorghe Crăciun is more commonly Gheorghe Craciun, etc., but WP accurately spells their names with the diacritics that they themselves use(d). Doremo (talk) 14:40, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

We go by common English, scholarly usage. See Sobibor extermination camp (no diacritic to match English usage). Our article on Rudolf Höss spells his name with 'ss' rather than the German Rudolf Höß to match common English usage. You can show me his signature all day, even English articles that use the German spelling, it doesn't change the fact that in English, the name is usually spelled differently. In this case it would match both English and German usage, the latter should have some weight at whatever his origins, Globocnik was an Austrian, not a Slovenian, citizen.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:38, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nomination. This entry was created on 27 March 2004‎ under the main title header "Odilo Globocnik" and remained so for 14 years, until it was moved without a discussion on 25 April 2018. Since there is no consensus for the 2018 move, it should remain under its original 14-year header, especially since, given that subject's entry appears in 27 other Wikipedias, it should be noted that among those, only six, including Slovenian Wikipedia, use the diacritic. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 17:48, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support WP:DIACRITICS says "Search engines are problematic unless their verdict is overwhelming", so we should be concentrating on the common name in reliable sources in English. A look at the titles of the biographies in English (Poprzeczny, Rieger and Williams, not sure about the latter in terms of reliability of the author though) about the man do not use the diacritic, and as far as his involvement in Yugoslavia, one of the key texts about Yugoslavia in WWII (Tomasevich) uses Globocnik, not Globočnik. Even Gregor J. Kranjc (a Canadian academic of Slovene background), uses Globocnik in To Walk with the Devil: Slovene Collaboration and Axis Occupation, 1941-1945. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:01, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support The letter Č does not exist in the German language. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 14:12, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.