Talk:Judeo-Berber language

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This article is about a topic whose name is originally rendered in the Berber script; however the article does not have that version of its name in the article's lead paragraph. Anyone who is knowledgeable enough with the original language is invited to assist in adding the Berber script.
For more information, see: MOS:FOREIGN.

judeo-berber speaking jews[edit]

is there an ethnic name for judeo-berber speaking jews? are they part of the mizrahim and/or maghrebim?

i'm finally getting around to signing the above post. Gringo300 07:51, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

ethnonym for Judæo-Berber speaking communities[edit]

Maghrebim is not a Jewish ethnonym, it refers only to the location of a large number of Jewish communities, which were predominantly Ladino or Judæo-Arabic speaking. The Ladino-speaking communities were sephardim, and the Judæo-Arabic speaking communities were either sefardim or "mizrachim". The Judæo-Berber speaking communities are mostly just considered mizrachim. You seem to have a penchant for wanting to classify Jews, almost to the point of obsession. I don't know why. You should understand, the term "Mizrachim" is not an ethnonym, it's actually an epithet used by the anti-religious elements in the 1950's ashkenazi community in Israel, and to a lesser within the sefardi community, to refer to "those strange eastern Jews". This is covered briefly in the article at Mizrahi Jew and on the talk page there. Tomer ^TALK 20:32, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

the question is: who started the idea of subclassifications of jews in the first place? i'm under the impression that it was the jews themselves, but i could be wrong.

i'm also currently working on documenting the names of all indian tribes (native american, not india) and african ethnic groups.

First, I hope you're not offended that I've altered your previous post's format slightly. Please refer to Talk:205.208.159.171 for more information, if you haven't already read what I've written there.

To answer your question, I think that you're concentrating too much on "classification" as opposed to "identification". Jews do not "classify" each other as "ashkenazi" or "sephardi", or even as "mizrachi" or "etyopi" or whatever. These words refer to community origins first, and secondarily to community traditions, not to community identity. An ashkenazi Jew might feel somewhat lost at certain points in a Parsi synagogue, but that's because the liturgy is slightly different. For instance, the specific Psalms used to welcome some certain holiday in one community might be used in another community to welcome only the sabbath, or be used only on the 4th day of passover when the 4th day of passover is a monday. In such a case, the Ashkenazi Jew in the Parsi synagogue would be equally confused as the Parsi would be in an Ashkenazi synagogue. "Wha? Why are we saying tehilim for chol hamoed pesach to welcome shabat!?" In fact, even between various Ashkenazi communities there are numerous differences in liturgy, just as there are between various Sephardi communities. If you want to try to understand divisions in Judaism from outside the Jewish world, it's best to first shuck the idea that such divisions will in any way be comprehensible through analogy with Christian divisions. Next, shuck the idea that the divisions are geographical, regardless of how much homogeneity might be found in certain areas. Many times, Jewish communities with vastly different traditions have coexisted quite peacefully within even the same city (cf. the Jewish communities in Saloniki and Istanbul...in both cases, there were three distinct Jewish communities, each maintaining its own distinct traditions, yet comfortably interacting with each other regularly as Jews). That said, what you imagine as "classifications" were indeed first applied by Jews to each other, not as an indication of ethnic differences, but as geographic identifiers. Hence, "Ashkenazi", from the Hebrew word "Ashkenaz", meaning "Germany". To this day, "Ashkenazi" means "German". "Tzarfat" is "France", and "Tzarfati" is "French(man)". "Sfarad" is "Spain", "Sfaradi" is "Spaniard". Over time, some of these geographic terms have taken on ethnic connotations, but evenso, they're not "classifications". Tomer ^TALK 06:19, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

i know little about the berbers, except that i've heard that they are hamites. so far, i know far less about the hamites than i do about the semites(shemites), though i'm working on learning more about them.

Again, PLEASE, stop using horizontal rules to separate your comments within a thread from those comments preceding them. If you haven't yet read them, PLEASE, review my comments at Talk:205.208.159.171. That said, I find your obsession with classifications to be uniquely disturbing. The classification of the Berbers as "Hamites" is an outgrowth of the thoroughly-debunked racial theory nonsense of the late 19th century. While the Berber languages are classified as the "Hamite" part of the "Hamito-Semitic" language family, this classification, not only of the Berber languages, but even of this name for the language family, has long since fallen into disuse, not because, as many pro-racist theorists presume, because of "political correctness", but because there is neither ethnological nor linguistic evidence sufficient to support such a division between the "Hamite" and "Semite" languages. Tomer ^TALK 10:10, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

ok, now it's afro-asiatic instead of hamito-semitic. but then, i've long heard that the term "asiatic" is considered derogatory.

the hamitic thing... yes, about ham and a drunk, naked noah... whatever that is supposed to be about... i've always failed to see the alleged significance.

i'll sign this as gringo300. i'm finally getting around to doing so... Gringo300 10:15, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

individual judeo-berber languages[edit]

the article needs to list the individual judeo-berber languages. Gringo300 10:15, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There aren't any. It's not like Moroccan Judeo-Arabic. Article deleted and redirected to spurious languages per Hammarström (2015). — kwami (talk) 03:04, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Confusing Content[edit]

Almost the first thing this article says is that there were no monolingual speakers of this "contact" language (what is then described is not a contact language but a second language spoken with a few sociolectal influence features). Then in the section on phonology one feature is characterized by its occurance amongst the monolingual users who supposedly don't exist.

Also it describes its use in explaining in-group texts, while its main use is communication with outgroup people (supposedly). If its users all understood at least one other language better than this, and one at least sporadically written (Judeo-Arabic), why would they explain those texts in a less-well-known language used excluseively to communicate with outsiders? --Sukkoth 18:46, 17 June 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sukkoth Qulmos (talk • contribs)

Glottolog now says this language does not exist[edit]

The Glottolog entry on Judeo-Berber has two notices. One reads:

This entry has been retired and is featured here only for bookkeeping purposes. Either the entry has been replaced with one or more more accurate entries or it has been retired because it was based on a misunderstanding to begin with.

The other reads:

E16/E17/E18/E19/E20/E21/E22/E23/E24 has an entry for Judeo-Berber [jbe] originating in the High Atlas of Morocco. Although there were certainly Jews who spoken Berber, contra Galand-Pernet, Paulette and Zafrani, Haïm 1970 , there is now a detailed investigation revealing that there was no normed Jewish variety that differed from the corresponding non-Jewish Berber ( Joseph Chetrit 2007 ). The entry presumably entered on analogy with Judeo-Moroccan Arabic varieties, which are real in the sense of being normed varieties that differ from the non-Jewish ones ( Lévy, Simon 1990 ).

This article should probably have information about this, but it is not really my area of knowledge. Cheers, postleft ✍ (Arugula) ☞ say hello! 22:23, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]