Talk:Espresso

Instant espresso

Zaffiro, I'm a little curious about this edit. How is instant espresso different than instant coffee? And more curiously, why do we want to avoid mentioning it? – JBarta (talk) 21:11, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Glad you asked. "Espresso" is not a bean, a roast or a grind. It is a method of making coffee. Several recognized definitions are collected here: http://lrs.ed.uiuc.edu/students/tchen3/espdifine.html. What the definitions all have in common is that the drink is produced by forcing water at great pressure through finely ground coffee, resulting in a small, very concentrated beverage with an emulsified layer of foam on top called "crema."

When a company calls its instant coffee "espresso," they are trying to evoke some kind of association with the drink, but it is definitely not espresso. Zaffiro (talk) 04:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Your take on the matter does't quite jive with the source you present. Your source defines "espresso" as both a beverage and a method. Actually that's being generous. The source overwhelmingly defines it and refers to it as a beverage rather than a method. And while your views on the legitimacy of an "instant espresso" product are interesting, it doesn't really matter what your views are or what you think their marketing aims might be. What matters is what the sources say. And your source isn't saying. The product also seems to be marketed as "espresso powder" for use in cooking. Certainly no one is suggesting that "instant espresso" is the same as traditional espresso, but that doesn't mean we have to avoid it altogether. I see no reason why it can't be included in an accurate and neutral manner. If sources generally describe it negatively as you have, we can include that as well. If sources really don't comment one way or another, then maybe we shouldn't editorialize and just let the reader decide. – JBarta (talk) 09:19, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Of course espresso is a "beverage." Otherwise you couldn't order one in a coffee shop. My point was that espresso "the beverage" is only produced by espresso "the method," which is what all those definitions are telling you. Zaffiro (talk) 16:09, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Well here's a source that defines instant espresso as a powder which makes espresso when combined with hot water. And this states that espresso powder is brewed espresso (maybe even by the espresso method?!) that has been dehydrated into granules and to make espresso, you just add boiling water. Now granted, most uses seem to be for cooking, but the fact remains that it's a real product and it falls under the topic of espresso. You seem to champion limiting the article to only include espresso brewed in the traditional fashion by the espresso method. Clearly though, the topic of "espresso" is not limited to that. In my opinion the article is improved by mentioning instant espresso (and espresso powder) and certainly is not harmed. – JBarta (talk) 18:18, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

In reference to this paragraph (quoting):
While the 'expresso' spelling is recognized as mainstream usage in some American dictionaries,[20][21] its inclusion is controversial, with many outright calling the 'x' variant illegitimate.[22][23][24][25] Oxford Dictionaries online states "The spelling expresso is not used in the original Italian and is strictly incorrect, although it is common."[26]

I would welcome further discussion on the etymology and also about whether the paragraph should be modified, and how. I'll provide an Italian translation if anyone desires such. My comment is the following:

'Espresso' is the singular masculine past participle of 'esprimere' "to express". So, "espresso fuori", or simply 'espresso', would be in English "expressed", in the sense of "articulated". Whereas, to press out, or squeeze out, in Italian would be "per spremere fuori" < spremere "squeeze or press out" < premere 'squeeze or press out'. And the singular masculine past participial expression would be "spremuto fuori", or simply 'spremuto'. One theory might be that there was an earlier use of the past participle 'espresso'-- *espresso(2)-- which meant the same thing as 'spremuto', and that this use has carried over into Modern Italian when used in reference to the beverage. See https://it.wiktionary.org/wiki/spremuto and https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spremere

But see this article which states that some sources derive the term 'espresso' from the English adverb 'expressly' (in "expressly for the customer"): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/espresso While the notion that the English language may have given Italians the term for a favorite beverage of theirs may seem improbable at first, the etymology makes sense from the standpoint of the Italian language itself; and the popularity of Italy during past centuries as a destination for English tourists might go a long way toward accounting for it. With this in mind, I'll continue to use 'expresso' and consider the term 'espresso' to be "posh" English and a violation of "noblesse oblige". Lavomengro (talk) 23:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Zaffiro (talk) 01:25, 3 March 2015 (UTC) This subject was debated at great length here two or three years ago, provoked by someone who wanted to use a dictionary's etymology section as a substitute for research into the history of coffee. We finally posted a quote and citation from Ian Bersten's famous history of coffee devices, which describes the three meanings. That explanation has remained ever since. If we had to choose just one reason why "espresso" was originally chosen to describe this drink, the prevailing view in the coffee industry is that it is speed of preparation, as demonstrated by early Italian advertising posters comparing espresso to a speeding "express" train. I would really like to avoid rehashing that same debate now.

Coming in late, but here's something to consider: contestants on Chopped (TV series) sometimes use espresso powder in their dishes and the judges have never complained about it. (I don't think it's ever been a basket ingredient, but considering some of the odd things that get into baskets, it might.) JDZeff (talk) 19:29, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

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Expresso

The alternative spelling "expresso", which the Oxford English Dictionary and the Online Etymological Dictionary call a variant spelling, was deleted from the lead. The Wikipedia guideline on lead sections states that alternative spellings should be provided in the lead. MOS:LEADALT states that "significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph. These may include alternative spellings, longer or shorter forms, historical names, and significant names in other languages." An editor called the spelling "expresso" a corrupt spelling. Yes, various sources call "expresso" "wrong" and "incorrect". However, there are also sources supporting the "x" spelling. If "expresso" is good enough for the Oxford English Dictionary (which calls it a "variant" spelling), it is good enough for our Wikipedia article. I am putting "expresso" back in the lead, with the references it had before it was deleted. As well, MOS:LEAD states that the lead should "...summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." Espresso isn't a controversial political or religious topic, so about the most controversial thing about it is how it should be spelled.OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 00:55, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. Also, you (MOS:LEADALT) mentioned other languages. There is at least this one: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expresso , and I think it and any very popular others should be mentioned. (The drink may be attrib to Italy, but many mixes of it are French.) Sadsaque (talk) 19:52, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Etymology

OnBeyondZebrax added the content below to the section on Etymology. This seems excessive for content and sources on what should be a concise matter per WP:NOTMANUAL and WP:OVERCITE.

There is a debate over whether the spelling expresso is incorrect or whether it is an acceptable variant. It is called a less common variant in some sources. Italy uses the term espresso, substituting most x letters in Latin root words with s; x is not considered part of the standard Italian alphabet. Italian people commonly refer to it simply as caffè (coffee), espresso being the ordinary coffee to order; in Spain, while café expreso is seen as the more "formal" denomination, café solo (alone, without milk) is the usual way to ask for it when at an espresso bar. Some sources state that expresso is an incorrect spelling, including Garner's Modern American Usage. While the 'expresso' spelling is recognized as mainstream usage in some American dictionaries, some cooking websites call the 'x' variant illegitimate. Oxford Dictionaries online states "The spelling "expresso" is not used in the original Italian and is strictly incorrect, although it is common." The Oxford English Dictionary and Merriam-Webster call it a variant spelling. The Online Etymology Dictionary calls "expresso" a variant of "espresso." The Oxford Dictionary of American Usage and Style (2000) describes the spelling expresso as "wrong", and specifies espresso as the only correct form. The third edition of Fowler's Modern English Usage, published by the Oxford University Press in 1996, noted that the form espresso "has entirely driven out the variant expresso (which was presumably invented under the impression that It. espresso meant 'fast, express')."

--Zefr (talk) 01:35, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Zefr is incorrect. The content above was not all added by OnBeyondZebrax. Two parts of it were added by me. The section as it stands seems to me to cover the dichotomous aspects of the matter concisely and judiciously. Tim riley talk 07:00, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

References

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Cold Espresso origin question

"Cold espresso (espresso freddo) is an alternative form of espresso, mostly served in southern Europe. Conceived in Greece" What evidence is there to support this claim? My parents from Spain were drinking cold espresso ("solo con hielo") back in the 40s. In Italy this is also a very popular drink. Beside being a rather uninteresting claim, I cannot see how any country with hot weather can prove they were the first ones to think of serving ice-cold coffee. Seems like a pretty obvious thing to do in summer in any country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.172.233.247 (talk) 13:36, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Dispute over espresso machine

This edit is an opinion, WP:OR, supported only by a commercial, spam source. It has been reverted. Zaffiro is edit warring, and warned for WP:3RR and original research. --Zefr (talk) 23:04, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Purpose of the espresso roast section; items in the see also section

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this article. I noticed that the espresso roast section is quite small. I believe that the purpose of this section is to convey that generally, certain batches of coffee beans are roasted with the expectation that they will be used for espresso, and that creates an opportunity to talk about why this is and what decisions go into creating an espresso-specific roast. I was wondering if anyone had any insight into why that section exists before I attempt to expand on it.

I don't think the majority of the items in the see also section are any more pertinent to espresso than they are to any other coffee topic. Cuban espresso isn't necessarily more strongly associated than any other espresso-based beverage; knockboxes aren't necessarily more significant than any other espresso making equipment, and I think that bikini baristas are more associated with cafe culture than espresso itself (though I didn't even realize that that variation on baristaing existed until reading this article). Is there any reason why I shouldn't abbreviate that list? Stelercus (talk) 03:58, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Origin

Espresso first appeared in France and after developped in Italy. The first espresso machines were created in France, it is already in the article. Then the drink itself: "The espresso was born in 1822 when Frenchman Louis Bernard Rabaut invented a machine that forced hot water through the coffee grounds instead of leaving it to drip through."

"Louis Rabaut...Now we use his invention to create the fanciful espresso drinks so many of us crave." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mauricco (talk • contribs) 13:29, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Hello Mauricco, wouldn't you have a link to your two quotes and on which page exactly is this written? Unfortunately, I do not have access to these two books. But let's discuss its origin, yes in 1822 a Frenchman tried to pass a steam-water mixture through ground coffee under pressure, but the result of such an experiment is unknown, since no working models were created at that time,1 yes theoretically, he contributed to the creation of a prototype of future espresso machines, but it was far from practical use. Angelo Moriondo’s invention (1884) and other coffee machines which (although still distant from the first espresso machines) provided an instant coffee that was not yet prepared into the cup (specifically for the customer on request), but was made in large quantities into container. Moriondo also never fully commercialized his invention.2 In 1901, Luigi Bezzera perfected the steam coffee machine and patented his invention, making it much more compact and practical, which sped up the process. It was very similar to the one still used today due to the presence of the filter holder with one or more spouts and a system for attaching it to the central body of the machine, which marked the birth of espresso coffee, made expressly on the spot and rapidly at the customer’s request into the cup.3 This coffee machine made it possible to prepare coffee in cafes and restaurants. The machines became widespread and with them the word espresso soon became synonymous with strong Italian coffee.4 The 1906 Milan Fair stand featured the words ‘Espresso Caffè’ in huge letters, the term espresso for coffee prepared in this way was used for the first time on this occasion.5 Therefore, it is known that espresso is coffee-brewing method of Italian origin.6,7 Best regards Jirka.h23 (talk) 13:16, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply.

I don´t have another link, I can see a preview of this books and copy-pasted the exact quotes.

Of course the technique of making espresso evolved with time but it started in France. In the article there is a mention of another Frenchman, Edouard Loysel de Santais, you can read in the references that the coffee he was making was directly made in an individual cup, like modern machines, and that before Bezzera.

These coffee were already called espresso (express) and used the steam. I think it is enough to consider the contribution of France in this beverage. Mauricco (talk) 19:55, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

No from the sources in the article you can read that Santais machine could make 2000 cups of coffee in one hour, but it apparently brew into the pot, anyway the device was still "too complicated and difficult to operate to have any lasting influence on puiblic coffee making". Also, the machine did not use steam to directly force water through the coffee, but rather to raise the water to a height above the coffee. Anyway, the use of the machine soon faded away. As it is written in the same source: It wasn't until 1901 in Italy that the first commercial espresso-making machine was manufactured, when Bezzera patented a single-cup espresso-machine. Jirka.h23 (talk) 11:55, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

The machine of Bezzera is also very different from the modern ones. There are all precursors, I don't understand why you choose to ignore the contribution of one country in particular. Mauricco (talk) 14:06, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't know what else to say, I'll have to repeat myself (in inventions we could go as far as who invented steam heating or the first preparation of coffee). From the sources already provided you can read that: Bezzera's machine was very similar to the one still used today, which marked the birth of espresso coffee, made expressly on the spot and rapidly at the customer’s request into the cup, made it possible to prepare coffee in cafes and restaurants, they became widespread and with them the word espresso soon became synonymous with strong Italian coffee, it wasn't until 1901 in Italy that the first commercial espresso-making machine was manufactured. Therefore, espresso is coffee-brewing method of Italian origin. French didn’t invent the espresso machine or develop any groundbreaking techniques (even the origins of the French press are in dispute).1 Anyway both French and Italian have argued about the origins of the coffee brewer.2

But I understand what you're saying, maybe we could add some sentence like this: "The French also made a significant contribution to the invention of the first coffee makers and café culture."? Jirka.h23 (talk) 16:14, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi Jirka.h23,

I consider the French machines as espresso machines because they use steam, they work fast and the drink they make was called espresso (café express). The continuity is clear and that is why they can be considered as the origin of espresso, even if changes were made after. So there are not simple "coffee makers" as you said.

I let you the final word, if you want to add a sentence that consider my view I will be happy, if not, it was nice to exchange with you about this interesting topic :). Mauricco (talk) 09:56, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Interesting that only in France, Espresso is also called "Expresso", in my country, Italy and English-speaking countries it is considered as a nonsense,1 this probably then leads to speculation about the origin. Anyway, I added the mentioned sentence to the introduction.Jirka.h23 (talk) 13:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The history here is pretty complicated. From an article I read today: "If we rely on the authority of available patents, the principle of using steam to push water through ground coffee is certainly a German invention, dating back to 1818." Maybe what we need to do is have a section on German and French precursors and then move on to the Italian contribution, which is creating and popularizing the final version. Jcbutler (talk) 16:55, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

References

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