Talk:Bartholomew the Apostle

redirect

Perhaps a one-way link from Bart Simpson to his apparent namesake. Ed Poor

Sure; I just thought it funny to point out that because Ellmist had made "Bartholomew" a redirect to "Bart Simpson", the link to "Bartholomew" on the page about the 12 apostles went directly there. This is probably not what he had in mind. :-)

I agree, as per the discussion regarding "Margaret". And let's be nice to Ellmist, because he's a hard worker and his heart is in the right place :-) --Ed Poor

Material needing work

The following was pasted into the article, with reference to why Bartholomew was flayed:

The reason being that St. Bartholomew and St. Thaddeus were preaching the new religion of Christianity in Armenia. Because of this the Armenian Church is called the Armenian "Apostolic" Church, since the two apostles were the first to bring the new faith to Armenia.

I'm not sure of its accuracy (no references given); I can't see how this explains why he was flayed rather than killed in some other manner; and the grammar of the first sentence is bad. If someone wants to clean this content up & get it back in there, fine. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:14, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre

I'm removing this link as it really has nothing to do with Bartholomew beyond the mere coincidence of his name. May as well put the Bart Simpson link back in. Jumbo 18:49, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It took place on is Feast Day, so it's not a MERE coincidence.

His feast day is on the 24th of august —Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.51.62 (talk) 17:27, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Barto?

For American English, we say "Bartholomew (learned); Bart, Barto (vernacular)". Bart is roughly equally so in the UK, I would think, including referring to a church or hospital as "St. Bart's". "Barto" I've never heard in my life, what is the basis for this? - Jmabel | Talk 06:35, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

3 days, no answer, removed "Barto". - Jmabel | Talk 18:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Nah — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.15.109.171 (talk) 17:16, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Albanopolis

Where is the city of Albanopolis today? Is it in Armenia, Turkey, or somewhere else? -- Clevelander 19:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

As per christian tradition his place of death is said to be Albanopolis. Name implies a city of Caucasian Albania (Modern territory of Azerbaijan). But it is only a theory and there is a discussion where it could be in a different article.

To avoid controversy, prior to making a edit, I want to claim that all references that Albanopolis is in Armenia on the article summary table should be removed, as there is no valid evidence and confirmed scientific consensus about that. There is a common christian tradition to think that he died in Albanopolis, but there no tradition to associate Albanopolis with Armenia, apart maybe from a later Armenian authors. The modern Britannica article link does not mention anything about Albanopolis or its being in Armenia. The only source given refers to 1911 (!) edition Britannica, the disclaimer of which says: "Articles from the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica are based upon the information available to the editors and contributors at the time of their original publication in the early 20th century. Changing circumstances and more recent research may have rendered this information obsolete or revealed it to be inaccurate" disclaimer. Natura rerum. (talk) 09:37, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Death and Martyrdom

I think there needs to be some specific explanation of how Bartholemew is alleged to have been killed and what the motivation was. There are several indirect references to his martyrdom and Armenian traditions, but it is never fully explained. I understand this may be partly because there is no concrete evidence for how or why it took place, but this does not preclude us from creating a section which outlines the best estimations of what happened. Personally, I read the article looking specifically to find this information and was left more confused than I started. Blankfrackis 19:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Can someone write what "tradition" claims? --Eddylyons (talk) 20:26, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok, done. 123.240.133.120 (talk) 18:40, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

His martyrdom is mentioned several times, yet no section on his martyrdom. This article is deficient. Someone please help.giggle 00:53, 16 December 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gregory.george.lewis (talk • contribs)

Name

Why is it that Ptolemy directly contradicts the meaning given here and has no reference to furrows or ploughmen? 199.91.34.33 (talk) 18:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

this site: http://www.ucatholic.com/saints/saint-bartholomew/ gives a different explanation and has it come from Bar Talmai (ref in II Sam 3:3) --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 14:45, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure I'm not the first to advance this theory, but given that the prefix "Bar" means "son of", might it be that he was Nathaniel son of Thalmai - Nathaniel bar Thalmai (or Nathanial bar Ptolemy, or whatever), and that some referred to him by his given name and others by his patronymic? Philculmer (talk) 12:42, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Miracles?

The miracle section seems completely anecdotal and is missing all of its sources; also, they do not apply to Saint Bartholomew himself but rather images of him. I'm not an expert on saints so there's not a lot I can do. Anybody up to fixing it a bit? -Lamarcus (talk) 00:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Baku

Is there a neutral reliable source for the claim that he was crucified in Baku. I'm afraid the calendar for the Baku church are neither neutral or reliable. As such, I removed the info per WP:Fringe. VartanM (talk) 18:01, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

The existence of the Russian-period church, proven through old images of it, would seem to be proof of the existence of this local belief. The question is, is it notable enough to be included unless we start mentioning other, similar, local claims? For example, for his association with Armenia, the St. Bartholomew monastery near Bashkale contained alleged relics and the nearby church of Soradir contained what was claimed to be his gridle. However, as as been pointed out on the talk page, the article doesn't contain a clear explanation of how or where or under what circumstances Bartholemew died. Meowy 14:38, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

There's no proof that St. Bartholomew was killed in Baku. It is just a belief of orthodox Christians in Baku, and was presented not as a fact, but the point of view of the Russian orthodox church in Baku. The reference was made to their website. I don't really see a reason why this fact cannot be mentioned here. If there are other places where a similar local tradition exists, they can be mentioned too.--Grandmaster 19:40, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

My problem is not with the legend, but the source. If you can find a reliable source to confirm it, you are more than welcome to re add the info. VartanM (talk) 23:42, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

The source is the website of Baku Eparchy of the Russian orthodox church. The views expressed there belong to that organization. Why is it unreliable to support the statement about the views of orthodox Christians in Baku? Grandmaster 04:37, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Grandmaster about this. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 08:55, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

There will be no reliable source, as this happened thousands years ago, and there can be only theories and articles of different researchers. Name Albanopolis implies a city of Caucasian Albania, it makes sense that it could be in Azerbaijan the modern territory of which covered Caucasian Albania in the past. But it is only a theory and logical thinking. So as a place of death it is only valid to mention Albanopolis, and marked as per christian tradition, and the separate article could discuss sources and theories where the Albanopolis could be. The certain thing, it was not Armenia either as shown in the article. Natura rerum (talk) 09:34, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

caption

Can anyone read this? [1]

It goes like 'Nomme Praxitees ??imarc' Finxi Agrat'

SyP (talk) 14:11, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was undecided after 14 days Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:24, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Bartholomew the Apostle → Bartholomew — The apostles here are all the sole or primary meaning of "Saint Name", the first is also the primary meaning of Bartholomew. See a defeated move request for Saint Andrew for a recent discussion. The remaining apostles are not the primary meaning of "Saint Name".

• Jude the Apostle → Saint Jude
• Matthew the Evangelist → Saint Matthew
• Matthias the Apostle → Saint Matthias

PatGallacher (talk) 18:19, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose "Bartholomew" - if everything is sainted, this should be as well. 70.29.210.242 (talk) 06:18, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Treating Bartholomew differently is fully in accordance with current Wikipedia naming conventions for saints, see WP:NCWC. "Saints go by their most common English name, minus the 'Saint', unless they are only recognisable by its inclusion. For example, Paul of Tarsus, Ulrich of Augsburg but Saint Patrick."

I think these articles have been moved to their current titles because of someone grinding an obscure theological axe, against describing anyone as a saint, but this has not been clearly explained. PatGallacher (talk) 12:39, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

It would be much better if it were just "Apostle X" ... since they are known that way, and you don't have to figure out what their "titles" were (ie. "the Evangelist"), and you don't have to figure out which "Saint X" is which. 70.29.210.242 (talk) 15:08, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

"Apostle X" is not a particularly common way of referring to these people, "Saint X" is more common. Actually, with Bartholomew, Matthew and Matthias there is no possibility of confusion with other saints, since there are no other saints with these names on Wikipedia. Jude the Apostle is already the primary meaning of "Saint Jude", it is well established on Wikipedia that somebody can be the primary meaning of a given name or title, you do not necessarily need to disambiguate. PatGallacher (talk) 16:54, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

• We should move this article towards 'Saint Bartholomew' instead. Some of these guys (St. Patrick, St. Peter, St George, etc) are simply famous under "Saint X". IMHO we should follow common use and common sense. Furthermore we could and should merge Bartholomew (name) into Bartholomew (disambiguation). Flamarande (talk) 14:16, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I am genuinely unsure by what you meant by the second sentence in the last contribution. You could be proposing a change in the naming conventions for saints, if so it should be raised there. I don't necessarily disagree with the last sentence, but that's a separate issue. PatGallacher (talk) 15:54, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

• I'm not clear on what is the proposal and what it would accomplish. If it is to change Bartholomew the Apostle to Bartholomew, I oppose. The Twelve Apostles are unique in the New Testament. There are hundreds of people revered as saints by one group or another. There were only Twelve Apostles (at any one time). "Apostle" is far more distinctive than any other title I can imagine, and certainly more unique than "Saint." Thanks. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 21:12, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

But this proposal only applies to those Apostles who are already the sole or primary meaning of "Saint Name". Is "Apostle Peter" or "Peter the Apostle" really more comprehensible than "Saint Peter"? PatGallacher (talk) 21:48, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Outside of those Churches that canonize or otherwise highly revere saints, yes: "Apostle Peter" or "Peter the Apostle" really more comprehensible than "Saint Peter". However, you picked the one case among the apostles where Saint can likely be justified even on the basis of colloquiums such as "Saint Peter at the Pearly Gates." Except possibly for Peter, I submit that the answer to your question concerning the other apostles is a clear yes. If one searches for "Saints," there is a huge list. If one searches for "Apostles," there is a short list. Bartholomew is one the lesser known among The Twelve. But what is his "claim to fame," his most important distinction? Was it his sainthood by Catholics or his selection by Jesus as an Apostle? Most Protestants and many others couldn't care less about canonization and don't recognize it as being valid. Apostleship, especially of the original Twelve, is recognized and highly honored by virtually all adherents of the Christian faith. If I understand your proposal, you suggest dropping "the Apostle" off of Bartholomew. Is that correct? I don't understand why. Perhaps I miss your point. Please clarify for me "this proposal only applies to those Apostles who are already the sole or primary meaning of 'Saint Name'". Thanks. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 23:03, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

This confirms my suspicions, that somebody is pushing a peculiar minority POV here. "Most Protestants and many others couldn't care less about canonization and don't recognize it as being valid." This is simply not the case. In Scotland, a Protestant country, people talk about St. Andrew's Cross, St. Andrew's Day and St. Andrew's House, it would come as a surprise to very many people that there is anything illegitimate about these terms. In England, people celebrate St. George's Day, in Glasgow we have St. George's Cross (with an underground station of that name) and St. Andrew's Square. In the Shankill Road in Belfast, a stronglhold of militant Protestantism if ever there was such a place, you have St. Matthew's Church. Who are these churches who do not canonise or otherwise highly revere saints? PatGallacher (talk) 23:48, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with User:PatGallacher (who forgot to sign his post above). Saint Bartholomew's sainthood doesn't matter (it's a red herring). What matters is the subjects common name in the English language. This article should use the most common name of the subject, which the average reader will use and recognize: it is Saint Bartholomew, and not Bartholomew the Apostle. Flamarande (talk) 23:44, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

a reference should probably be made to Saint Bartholomew, the patron saint of sailors (esp. in Portugal)

If the conclusion is that Portuguese sailors are not referring to the apostle then that distinction could be made clear.Peter (talk) 12:37, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Heading

So is Jonson's comedy really notable enough for mention in the header?

And is the Coptic feast date important enough to be in the header? Neither the Eastern nor Western feast dates are given in the header.

Rwflammang (talk) 16:58, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I would say no on Jonson, and it should be put in the body of the text. And the leads for most saints' articles include feasts days of the person, so I'll just add the RC and Orthodox feast days. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 23:00, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Reversion

I undid Filll's edit because it re-introduced honourifics and made the lead messy and less professional-looking. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 23:00, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Spelling

Nathanael or Nathaniel? Even if both are attested and used by different authors, there ought to be some sort of note about that. As it is, the article switches between spellings with no notice or explanation. --Khajidha (talk) 20:23, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

His Arm

In the relics section, it states "Some of Bartholomew's skull was transferred to the Frankfurt Cathedral, while an arm is venerated in Canterbury Cathedral today." Is there any evidence for his arm being currently held in Canterbury Cathedral? It is said it was taken there 1,000 years ago, but is there any evidence it's still there? Mesdale (talk) 08:07, 12 August 2014 (UTC) I would say this is worth confirming (should be possible to ask the Dean or his staff), especially as an ancestor or distant relative of mine did a certain amount of vandalism there during the rule of Oliver Cromwell Philculmer (talk) 12:49, 29 August 2017 (UTC).

St Bartholomew in Transylvania

I have just posted yesterday add text to the churches dedicated to this great Apostle and în case I did something wrong I repeat the adding: In Brasov city there is still standing since 1230 the only one Transylvanian old Church with this Patron. It towers over a former medieval Szekler guard house and quarters. They say was founded before 1200 by Cistercian Order chased away later on and taken over by the Saxon settlers about 1270. It is documentary mentioned that about 1458 the famous Hungarian Prince "Vlad Tzepess Dracula" who reigned these Transylvanian territories impaled on the little hill and quarry near by , forty Saxon craft-leaders. They were afterwards flayed just like St. Bartholomew. And this is not a myth ..

Krausser Diana-Bertha (talk) 16:16, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

1. You give no source for your edit, so that it is not verifiable.
2. It is not actually about Bartholomew the apostle: we don't have content about every church in the world that's named after a saint in the article about that saint, and if we did then many articles would get totally swamped by such content only indirectly related to the subject.
3. I'm afraid our edit wasn't in coherent English. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk)

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Saint Bartholomew's Day

Should this article point out that Saint Bartholomew's Day, August 24, was traditionally seen as the beginning of autumn? Vorbee (talk) 06:35, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Saint Bartholomew in India?

Who are all the people cited as being for and against his apostolate in India? Stallings, Neander, Hunter? I could find some of the ones who are supposedly against the idea but nothing about the ones who are for it. The source cited is also sketchy, it doesn't give any actual details about these writings. Some of the names are even unproperly taken on the Wiki page.VladG03 (talk) 14:43, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

@VladG03: Yeah, that whole section is flimsy. I recognize the Attwater volume being referenced; I'll look into this more when I have time. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:47, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Cheers, if it helps in any way, both Sollerius and Harnack are real people too, however I could find the former's works only in Italian and the latter's came out only one year later. VladG03 (talk) 14:50, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

@VladG03: That's a great start. Did a search and some bad news: looks like the whole passage was lifted from the cited blog post, which itself lifted wholesale from here. Not sure if it rises to the level of copyvio, but it looks bad. How do you feel about me hiding the text from "Previously the consensus" to "Felix" until we can source this appropriately? ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:58, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

@Pbritti I'd say we leave the text like this for now and not touch it while we try to find these people ourselves. Maybe they are just poorly quoted. Maybe we can actually contact the people of the "source" to see where they themselves got it. The whole section of the article bases itself on that source alone so invalidating it might mean having to completely redo it. That's just what I feel. VladG03 (talk) 15:39, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

@VladG03: Sounds good. I'm not with my books right now but will be later today, so I'll do the digging tonight continental US time. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:42, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

@Pbritti If you want to, maybe I can try to contact either of the two websites later today (EET). VladG03 (talk) 15:43, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

@VladG03: Outstanding. If they get back to you, let me know here. Thanks! ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:45, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

@Pbritti Ok, I wrote the admin of the website, who seems to be the author of the article. While researching I was able to discover a couple more of the authors.

Zaleski is Ladislaus Michael Zaleski, who indeed wrote a work about Christianity in India in 1915.

Sollerius, as I said, seems to be a real author who wrote works about Christianity in India, but I could find nothing about him and his works are only in Italian.

Adolf von Harnack's earliest work dates only one year later but seems to be plausible.

Medlycott was found by you. Mingana also seems to be a real scholar and his work can be found on the internet.

Other than that, all the other ones are mysteries.VladG03 (talk) 20:41, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

The various names of Bartholomew in the first sentence of the lede

I think the various names of Bartholomew in the first sentence of the lede should be put into a footnote to enhance readability. Currently, it spans four lines.

See MOS:FULLNAME for this convention. Also see Saint Peter or Paul the Apostle for examples. TheLonelyPather (talk) 15:58, 24 August 2023 (UTC)