Talk:Conn Smythe

Untitled

"After a dispute with management, he bought the Leafs"? From what I've heard, the Rangers fired him, he bet his savings on a hockey game, won, & bought the TO St Patricks, which he renamed the Leafs. If true & confirmed, I'd include it--if only because it's more interesting. Also, he promised to win the Stanley Cup in 5yr, & did it, in 1932. Trekphiler 19:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

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Hey, anon here. I think some info about Conn Smythe and his comment about Herb Canegie should be made. It was quite a remark, even though it wasn't too bad at the time.

"I'd give anyone $10,000 if they could turn Herb Carnegie white."

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Conn Smythe/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Nosleep (Talk · Contribs) 04:01, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Review forthcoming. Nosleep (Talk · Contribs) 04:01, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

OK. This article is generally good, and should pass GA without much difficulty. I think you'll run into serious opposition if your aim is higher, though, as the prose is not what I could call brilliant.

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality: Reasonably, yes, but the prose is awfully choppy in places, and contained some decidedly informal phrases that I have already edited out ("U of T," "he was a one-man band" among them). I'd encourage a peer review or WikiProject collaboration to try to work through these. I'll point out some remaining rough patches in a later edit. I'm unsure if there's actually a codified guideline against it, but the present-tense verbs in the section headers sounded extremely informal. I'd try not to use verbs in section headers at all, but present tense verbs in description of events that took place early last century are especially odd. Feel free to change the headers I have inserted, especially if I have inadvertently distorted the meaning. Additionally, I have edited out instances of the conditional as a past tense in favor of the simple past ("he became..." is preferable to "he would become..." and especially preferable to "he would go on to become...")

   • Albert and Mary had a rocky marriage and did not live together for more than months at a time. This can probably be expressed better. Is this a generalized statement (if so, I think "...for more than a few months at a time" would be favorable, to reflect inexactitude), or is there a specific number of months given in the citation (if so, obviously, give it)?
   • Mary, who was known as Polly, was remembered by their son Conn as pretty, a drinker and troublemaker. This string of clauses is gawky. I know you added "by their son Conn" as a response to my {{bywhom}}, but it might have been simpler to just remove "was remembered" altogether – particularly as this revision introduces the substandard passive voice. Similarly, "Smythe recalled," later in the article, to which I appended {{when}}, might best be resolved by removing that phrase.
   • Smythe was born at 51 McMillan Street, now known as Mutual Street, not far from the future site of Maple Leaf Gardens, and lived there until the age of two. The dependent clauses in this sentence really strain readability. It may be better to make this into multiple sentences.
   • A large number of sentences seem to need commas for independent clauses.
   • The Battery was ordered into the Ypres salient. ????? I don't really know anything about the military, so does this sentence make grammatical sense? And does Battery need to be capitalized, when it doesn't seem to be used as a proper noun? In wikilinking to artillery battery in the lead, which may also be done here, I decapitalized it, but, again, I don't know anything about the military, so maybe this was actually correct as was.
   • In 1926, Boston Bruins owner Charles Adams recommended him to Col. John S. Hammond, representing the owners of the new New York Rangers franchise, who was looking for someone to build his team. Another gawky, clause-ridden sentence. It's comprehensible, but it could definitely be better.
   • Smythe was hired to recruit a team, which he would then manage. I just wanted to point out that this is a correct use of the conditional, referring to past events as the future from the perspective of the more distant past.
   • Smythe refused to go when two Varsity Blues players he had promised could be part of the team were blocked by what he described as a "pressure play" from two Grads players to get relatives placed on the team instead. This certainly would be better off as two sentences. I forgot what the sentence was about by the time I got to the end of it, and had to read it 4 or 5 times to really get it.

   I may go back for more examples, but a lot of the remaining prose is like this. I've already passed it for this review, as it is reasonably good, the standard necessary for GA, but if your aim is an eventual FA a great deal of work is needed. Nosleep (Talk · Contribs) 05:45, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

   B. MOS compliance: No problems.

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources: The structure is sound.

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary: Obviously, I have no way of checking the sources themselves, and must WP:AGF. There were a couple of direct quotes that were uncited; I have appended them with {{cn}}. It should be a simple matter to put a small bracketed superscripted number next to them.

   C. No original research: Again, can't really check this, since I don't have the books cited. No problem, though.

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused: Exemplary

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales: I'm unsure that File:Conn Smythe 1944 statement.png is actually necessary or helpful, given that the statement appears in the article prose, but I won't ask for its removal.

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions and alternative text: ALT text is not technically required for GA, so I can't fail the article if it's not added, but I strongly suggest its addition.

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail: While I used the onhold symbol, I don't think a formal hold will be necessary. Just take care of the few cleanup tags I have put on the article and it should be good to pass. Any prose that remains to be picked out, as described above, does not keep this article from GA status. Nosleep (Talk · Contribs) 20:43, 14 March 2010 (UTC) I've changed my mind on this, and will now put in place a formal hold. Nosleep (Talk · Contribs) 05:55, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your work in reviewing this article. I have worked on the citations and believe that that aspect is covered now. I will add the alt text for the images. The prose can be improved; I see that now after re-reading the article. Much of the article was not written by me and I should have scrutinized the text more closely. At this point, I am not close to working on it for FA. I believe it needs more secondary sources, rather than relying on Smythe's memoirs, as I do for much of this article to be an FA. That said, I will work on some of the prose you've noted. Again, thanks. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 22:27, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough. I always have FA standards in the back of my mind when doing a GA review, but I guess not everyone has that goal with every article. Nosleep (Talk · Contribs)

Added the alt text to the images. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 15:22, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I'll go ahead and clear ya for takeoff, as there's nothing terribly wrong with the article and it certainly gives a good picture of its subject. Nosleep (Talk · Contribs) 07:05, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Use of historic front-page newspaper image

The use of the front-page image is used to significantly improve the understanding of the subject. That his letter made front-page news, and caused a scandal is illustrated by the front-page placement of the article. This was during the conscription crisis in Canada during WW2. Any opinions on this are welcome. Alaney2k (talk) 13:24, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

While the fact that his letter made front page news is strictly replaceable by text, in this instance, I believe that the image of the prominent placement on the front page adds to the reader's understanding of the accompanying text's description of how the Globe and Mail publisher may have been using Smythe to advance his own political purposes and I would recommend retaining the image in the article. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 18:00, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

About the Third Opinion request: The request for a 3O has been removed (i.e. denied) because 3O like all moderated content dispute resolution here at Wikipedia requires thorough talk page discussion before seeking assistance. If a standstill remains after thorough discussion, you may refile at 3O or choose some other form of dispute resolution. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 21:25, 23 May 2017 (UTC) (Not watching this page)

Enlistment photo

Confused: image of Smythe enlisting is tagged as public domain in the US, under the rationale that it was "published (or registered with the U.S. Copyright Office) before January 1, 1923." Image clearly describes Conn Smythe as enlisting for World War II - which certainly wouldn't have happened before 1923 - and further states it was taken in 1939. Bringing it up here since people are already discussing other image usage for this section, and I'm not that fluent in Public Domain criteria on the Commons. Echoedmyron (talk) 15:29, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Assuming that the Canadian public domain licensing is correct, the commons image should likely be re-tagged as Template:PD-1996. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 17:26, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Use of File:Maple Leaf Gardens 1930.jpg on this article

This file is in use on this article, but no prose exists discussing the image. There is no relevance of this image to the article, and as a non-free image fails criteria #8 of WP:NFCC. The building still exists today, and there are many free images of it available at Maple Leaf Gardens. The image file contains a rationale that claims its need of being used is to "Illustrate subject for article". It isn't the subject of the article, nor is there any explanation why we must have this image instead of any of the free images that could serve the save purpose. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:39, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

If the date of creation was in fact 1930 in Canada, the image may very well be Template:PD-Canada (We would need to know when the drafters died and when the image was first published) and, if so, likely Template:PD-1996 in the US. Unless and until the author updates the licensing, if appropriate, I recommend replacing the image with File:MapleLeafGardens1934.jpg which has complete licensing as public domain in both countries. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 16:49, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

• Agreed on all points, with the caveat that I don't think we need to engage in a search to find the information needed. We have free replacements available, which obviate the need of attempting to verify the image's copyright status. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:25, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

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