Talk:John Maclean (Scottish socialist)

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Soviet 4 kop. postage stamp[edit]

I've just replaced/restored the image of the Soviet postage stamp featuring John Maclean which had been deleted from Wikimedia due, I think, to incorrect copyright status. I believe I've correctly specified the relevant exemption - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-RU-exempt.

Unfortunately, I missed the discussion/debate pre-deletion but consensus seemed to be against deletion. For some reason it was deleted anyway... (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Stamps_by_Peter_Emilevich_Bendel). Steelwool (talk) 12:24, 3 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well done, an end to the random whim of Commons editors who delete images that are perfectly valid here on WP. A good example of the need to use Template:Keeplocal when necessary.--Cactus.man ✍ 21:40, 3 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It seems User:jcb has taken it upon himself to delete it again. There is a debate on-going re: undeletion and I'm now on strike pending reinstatement. I encourage others of like mind to join me. --Steelwool (talk) 17:00, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You are not allowed to reupload files that have been deleted by means of a Deletion Nomination. The proper way is to wait for an administrator to close the Undeletion Request. If the closing administrator decides to restore the files, he/she will take care to do this. But the UDR has been started 4 weeks ago and till now not a single administrator felt like restoring them. Jcb (talk) 17:08, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That would also have been the proper way to do the deletion. I seem to recall that you were outvoted on the DN but went and with it anyway. Don't tell me to follow rules you won't keep yourself, Dick! Steelwool (talk) 12:35, 31 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled[edit]

What does the "MA" at the end of his name mean? RickK

That is explained in the very first paragraph of the article. -- Derek Ross

I added the sentence that MacLean was known as the Fighting Dominie - but was he known thus while alive, or was it posthumously? And what's the correct capitalisation, Maclean or MacLean? The article uses both. CPMCE 01:54, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe this Wiki could do with a picture of MacLean? CPMCE 02:11, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

MacLean apparently had a street named after him in Russia somewhere.Cant seem to find any definitive info on this.Anyone know more ?

Yes...! This was Maklin Prospekt (Maclean Avenue) on the banks of the Neva in central Leningrad (St Petersburg). It has recently - poss. 2003 - reverted to it's former name, Angliisky Prospekt (English Avenue!) There is apparently still a street named Maklin Str in Kirov but this may be named after another Maclean. +++ Steelwool (talk) 04:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Unreferenced" tag[edit]

I'm puzzled by this: I count references to eight written works and nine online links (E&OE). --Old Moonraker (talk) 06:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unreferenced means "This article does not cite any references or sources" not that there are no references. I have used some of the references and added some citations, and changed the tag to ref-improve.-Wikianon (talk) 15:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification: read it as {{citations missing}} then, rather than {{unreferenced}}.--Old Moonraker (talk) 16:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good call with the ref-improve but I'm afraid I have to take issue with some of the sources cited! Unreferenced secondary sources - particularly those with a political agenda such as a Trotskyite publication - surely cannot be regarded as reliable sources. The McGuigan citations, in particular, need to be replaced with something which, at the very least, nods towards the source of the information and is substantially more NPOV.
There is also a distinct difference, in this context, between a "Bibliography" and "References". By changing this you have created a large list of potential sources which have not actually been used! To be honest, I've previously added entries to the Bibliography here that I wouldn't dream of using as sources, not unless I was pushing an argument.
I'm not going to simply revert this as I can see it was well intentioned...but I might have to perform some remedial tweaking... :c) +++ Steelwool (talk) 22:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a reference to the section on republican socialism, that I think should satisfy both of the "Citation Needed" tags that were there. I have also found a web page on Hamish Henderson that refers to the 25th anniversary memorial meeting and John MacLean march (Cultural References section). Would this satisfy the citation requirements here? Robhogg (talk) 12:02, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good to see more contributions. The citation you point to is pretty thin - given that it doesn't really provide any source for the claim (they might have picked it up from Wikipedia!) - but I reckon it might do for the time being. If anyone turns up anything better, it can always be updated...--Steelwool (talk) 22:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've added it for the time being. I am interested in doing some work on expanding this article - I've requested Nan Milton's bio, and will see what I can get from that. Robhogg (talk) 09:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've added an extra reference for the 25th Anniversary memorial. There's still a fair amount of work to be done, but I feel that this tag could now come off (at least for the present). What think you all? Robhogg (talk) 21:14, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Date of Birth[edit]

There appears to be some confusion over Maclean's date of birth. I believe the accepted date is 24th August 1879 despite the date of 26th offered by the uncredited Radical Glasgow article. Even a cursory reading of this piece suggests it derived from the entry in Scottish Labour Leaders 1918-1939 (Ed. William Knox) and the date should probably be discounted as a typo. Unfortunately, there is another source with another date. McHugh's article in the online version of the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography has Maclean born on August 14th. While this is a citable source it does contradict other sources and might conceivably be a misprint or transcription error. Until someone establishes a case for another date, I will reference Knox for 24th August. +++ Steelwool (talk) 02:22, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just checked a couple of other sources. Tom Bell uses 14th August. Aldred uses 24th.++++ 212.139.75.229 (talk) 08:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nan Milton gives the 24th August Robhogg (talk) 22:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, 24th August is what it says on his birth registration. --Steelwool (talk) 16:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Trial for sedition[edit]

Just added this section, but realised a date discrepancy. In his obituary for Maclean, Gallacher states that the trial at which he gave the famous speech - "I am not here, then, as the accused; I am here as the accuser..." - was in April 1916 . However, both Nan Milton and the Marxists Internet Archive give the date of this trial as May 9 1918. I will assume that the latter date is correct, unless anyone has any better evidence.

His trial in 1916 was also for sedition, among other charges. According to Milton he was imprisoned first at Carlton Jail (Edinburgh), then transferred to Peterhead, Perth and finally Duke Street (Glasgow). I'll add the year to the section heading to avoid confusion. Robhogg (talk) 15:40, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Death and Legacy[edit]

Can we get a better reference for the impact on Maclean's health of forcible feeding? The "Radical Glasgow" article is uncredited, unreferenced and, as pointed out above, not all that reliable. Broom (p.142) mentions Maclean being force-fed by the prison doctor in Duke Street before his final trial but the sentence was served in Barlinnie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Steelwool (talk • contribs) 23:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

snipped out quotes from Milton's biography that have now been incorporated in article Robhogg (talk) 13:33, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Milton does stop short of actually saying that the forced feeding caused the deterioration in his health, but these quotes are fairly strong. However, the section on his death and legacy could do with a bit of a rewrite I feel, as it gives the impression that this stay in Peterhead immediately preceded his death. In fact, he was released from there in 1918. His final stay in prison was in Barlinnie (1922), but Milton doesn't seem to suggest he was force-fed during this stay.Robhogg (talk) 22:30, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've added quotes on his force-feeding from Milton's biography. However, I felt that there needed to be a separate section dealing with his 1918 trial for sedition, which I've created and into which I've incorporated one of these quotes. Robhogg (talk) 13:33, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

External Links[edit]

I've removed the links to the McGuigan (IMT) article as it is fairly partisan and wholly unsourced and also the Radical Glasgow piece as it is unsourced and contains errors. --Steelwool (talk) 21:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm thinking it would be better to keep such sources, but point out the errors / provide balancing material. Surely Maclean himself was a partisan on the side of the workers, and also conflicted strongly with other leading members of the labour and Socialist movement at the time, and any adequate account would reflect the debate about his life and actions.Robhogg (talk) 22:38, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I can see your point and this might be something that should be included in the article itself. The Wikipedia policy on external links is quite clear that any resource should offer "neutral and accurate material" and keep clear of "factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research". I think every British leftist group with a member in Scotland has either tried to lay claim to Maclean or dismiss him as a heretic, lunatic or nationalist. I've got views too...but Wikipedia really isn't the place. --Steelwool (talk) 18:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Point taken. I've also removed a link, because it appears to be dead - The John Maclean Archive, including articles, biography and photographs - is anyone aware if this material has been moved elsewhere? I tried Googling, without success. Robhogg (talk) 14:13, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Found it again, at www.srsm.net - re-placed. Robhogg (talk) 15:52, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Lenin appointed John MacLean as Bolshevik Consul in Glasgow"[edit]

Surely this is worth a wee mention? --Mais oui! (talk) 15:13, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh. It already is. I was searching for the word "Lenin" not the word "Bolshevik". Still, tis another ref. --Mais oui! (talk) 15:15, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The source is sketchy. It was actually Litvinov that appointed Maclean consul anyway. Litvinov was the Bolshevik representative in London and closely connected with the BSP. -- Steelwool (talk) 05:17, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Sedition[edit]

The 'Trial for sedition' section is lacking information about what he was charged with. The government must surely have specified what Maclean was alleged to have done or said that constituted sedition, and that really ought to be in the article. It'd be very unsatisfying if, say, the O. J. Simpson article just mentioned his trial for murder, without mentioning who he was alleged to have murdered or why. 92.238.16.159 (talk) 07:12, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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