Talk:Art Tatum

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Rainey vs. Reamy

A contributor who claims to be a cousin of Tatum's classical piano instructor tried to edit the article to change the name of the instructor from Rainey to Reamy, but without any citation. (The contributor also claimed that Reamy played boogie-woogie in Toledo nightclubs, which inspired Tatum's jazz.) A Google search reveals a 1940 U.S. Census entry for an "Overton J. Reamy", age 59, living in Toledo, Ohio. https://www.archives.com/1940-census/overton-reamy-oh-98178486, which could lend creedence to the Reamy spelling and account. A Google search for "Overton G. Rainey" turns up a lot of results, but can they all have originated from the "Rainey" spelling in Lester's bio? 98.244.137.86 (talk) 18:35, 18 March 2022 (UTC)kolef98.244.137.86 (talk) 18:35, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

We need reliable sources (WP:RS). Do any discuss this and prefer 'Reamy'? Lester (p37) states that Rainey was "black" and the census states that Reamy was "white", so something's wrong. The census page has something like "music teacher" for his occupation, so it's possible, but we need RS. EddieHugh (talk) 18:55, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

This "Find a Grave" webpage identifies "Overton James 'Ovie' Reamy" (1881 - 1957) as a blind musician and entertainer in Toledo, and contains a photo of him playing piano, and also contains part of an obituary which identifies him as Art Tatum's piano teacher: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/122505050/overton-james-reamy

Also, "Overton J Reamy" is listed as being on the Board of Trustees for the Perkins School for the Blind or some related institution between 1920 and 1927: https://archive.org/stream/perkinsschoolfo202704perk/perkinsschoolfo202704perk_djvu.txt

In addition, the State of Ohio Annual Reports for 1909 lists "Overton J. Reamy" as a Toledo musician having graduated from the Ohio State School for the Blind in 1902: https://books.google.com/books?id=uoowAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA288&lpg=PA288&dq=%22Overton+J.+Reamy%22&source=bl&ots=-UKLdC4rgp&sig=ACfU3U1ihHnPUZtqbrat41hRUfEbwk0ktA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi_ouu__-P2AhXPVzABHaydAgsQ6AF6BAgGEAM#v=onepage&q=%22Overton%20J.%20Reamy%22&f=false

I believe these sources are sufficient to drop of footnote in the article regarding the spelling of his name. 98.244.137.86 (talk) 15:03, 26 March 2022 (UTC)kolef98.244.137.86 (talk) 15:03, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Find a Grave isn't a reliable source. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. We're close to having evidence to justify having a footnote, but for now we have what's too close to WP:SYNTH and/or the more general WP:OR. EddieHugh (talk) 20:32, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Downbeat Magazine

The main article states that Tatum won the Downbeat Magazine Critics' Poll for three years in a row from 1954, and cites at footnote 118 to Lester's book. However, the Wikipedia article on Downbeat Magazine states that the Critics' Poll did not commence until 1961. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DownBeat — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.244.137.86 (talk) 19:07, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article is about the Hall of Fame votes. The Tatum article states "Tatum was inducted into the DownBeat Jazz Hall of Fame in 1964". That's different from the poll that he topped three years in a row ("for pianists"): DownBeat in 2021 referred to that year's poll being the sixty-ninth, putting the first in 1953. EddieHugh (talk) 18:07, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Good catch. 98.244.137.86 (talk) 14:19, 17 June 2022 (UTC)kolef98.244.137.86 (talk) 14:19, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Vision Should be in Lead

I think his issues seeing should be in the lead. I would add it but better someone who can integrate it properly. I think it is way more notable than his excessive drinking. Hausa warrior (talk) 07:23, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't think so. His drinking was part of his chosen (and culturally influenced) lifestyle; his near-blindness was something he was largely born with. Thankfully, the world is moving on from highlighting what people can't do, and instead focusing on what they can do and choose to do. EddieHugh (talk) 20:09, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Hausa warrior that Tatum's vision impairment should be in the lede. Compare, for example, the wiki lede on Michel Petrucciani: "Michel Petrucciani (French pronunciation: ​[miʃɛl petʁutʃani]; Italian: [petrutˈtʃaːni]; 28 December 1962 – 6 January 1999) was a French jazz pianist. From birth he had osteogenesis imperfecta, a genetic disease that causes brittle bones and, in his case, short stature. He became one of the most accomplished jazz pianists of his generation despite his health condition and relatively short life."

See also wiki article on Andrea Boccelli:

"Andrea Bocelli OMRI OMDSM (Italian: [anˈdrɛːa boˈtʃɛlli]; born 22 September 1958) is an Italian tenor. He was born visually impaired, with congenital glaucoma, and at the age of 12, Bocelli became completely blind, following a brain hemorrhage resulting from a football accident. After performing evenings in piano bars and competing in local singing contests, Bocelli signed his first recording contract with the Sugar Music label. He rose to fame in 1994, winning the newcomer’s section of the 44th Sanremo Music Festival performing "Il mare calmo della sera"."

Tatum's visual impairment should be recognized from the start because he was unable to read music or see the keyboard like other piano players, which made his "musicality" even more remarkable. In addition, the article is not about Tatum's musicality; it's about Art Tatum.

98.244.137.86 (talk) 13:07, 30 June 2023 (UTC)kolef98.244.137.86 (talk) 13:07, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

yes

98.244.137.86 (talk) 13:08, 30 June 2023 (UTC)kolef98.244.137.86 (talk) 13:08, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I still haven't made up my mind in one way or another and am, needless to say, willing to accept the consensus reached here. That said, User talk:EddieHugh makes an excellent point about "the world is moving on from highlighting what people can't do, and instead focusing on what they can do and choose to do". So, was Tatum an incredible musician because he was partially sighted? In other words, did his limited vision make him a better musician? Or was he a good musician who just happened to be partially sighted...? We'll obviously never know... But we can surmise.

The main reference used for this article (Lester 1994) actually points out that Tatum "disliked having attention drawn to his blindness...".

As for comparing the introduction to those of other articles on other musicians with disabilities (medical model of disability) or on other disabled musicians (social model of disability), that's not how these discussions should be focused. The inclusion or not of his impaired vision in the introduction should be based on how relevant it is in this specific case. Obviously it should be mentioned in article at some stage, which of course it is, but not necessarily right up there at the beginning.

On the other hand, to make broad, sweeping statements about how "he was unable to read music or see the keyboard like other piano players..." is pure conjecture. While we often read that he was a blind musician, which merely highlights the limited knowledge that any given writer/journalist/biographer has regarding blindness and visual impairment, we know he studied music at school using Braille, so we can safely assume he was well aware of, at least, the rudiments of music theory. On the other hand, pianists don't actually need to see the keyboard. Which might explain why there are so many notable blind pianists... totally blind musicians, not partially sighted. While we're surmising, the "fact" that many (most?) of them play jazz and blues, for example, may merely respond these genres [possibly] relying more on the feel for the music than on the sight reading required of classical music... --Technopat (talk) 14:43, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Copying my comment from the GA review two years ago: "Tatum wasn't famous for being blind. He was famous for being a pianist. He also happened to be blind. I view highlighting such things as implying that someone was successful in a chosen pursuit despite not having something that most others take for granted. It's a bit patronising and can be a form of discrimination." EddieHugh (talk) 17:29, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

There's no problem at Stevie Wonder? Or at Ray Charles? What's different here? Thanks. 86.187.163.17 (talk) 21:53, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Ask there. Lennie Tristano, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, George Shearing, Marcus Roberts, etc, etc, etc don't mention it in the lead. As Technopat points out, 'another article does it differently' isn't a great argument. EddieHugh (talk) 17:10, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't know why its so important to include in the lead. Tatum wasn't notable for being blind. He wasn't even notable for being a "blind pianist". He was notable for being a pianist... that's it? Anyways, there is a long tradition of blind keyboard players in classical music and jazz, so this kind of thing has existed for a while. I worry that too much emphasis on his blindness creates the pseudo-historical that he overcame some great illness and triumphed into musical excellence (see this article for instance). Aza24 (talk) 17:14, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

What some are saying is that Tatum's playing would be just as accomplished and he would be just as acclaimed, even if his eyesight had been normal. That may or may not be true, but the facts are that he was mostly blind and was a superlative musician. To say that he was not famous for being blind is speculative. Did anyone take a survey to determine that? The notion that a person's disability should not be highlighted because we are becoming more enlightened is a noble sentiment. Yes, blind people don't want to be defined by their disability, nor do they want to be discriminated against for it. But not recognizing it, or saying "oh, there have been plenty of blind pianists", could be seen as minimizing or downplaying a serious disability. Can a sighted person determine whether being blind is a significant impediment? Anyway, in view of the divergent opinions, and with apologies to Art, I will let it rest. 98.244.137.86 (talk) 22:38, 8 July 2023 (UTC)kolef98.244.137.86 (talk) 22:38, 8 July 2023 (UTC)