Talk:Savannah cat

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 August 2020 and 12 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Meowzi.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 08:43, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

History

History is about the history of the breed, not about current prices, or SCAM organizations like lifestyle pets and Ashura cats, not about how much the cats weigh, and btw a 40lb savannah is an overweight cat. I have one of the largest F1 females around and she is 25lbs. Search Ruby "the other woman" on youtube for a video of her. I be emailing some key founding members of the breed from more input to the history section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lifeatthesharpend (talk • contribs) 16:39, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Spam

In the external link there is a "Bella Gattini Cattery" this appears to be a link to a Cattery or retail site. There are several breeders in the Savannah community around the world that are not being represented in this same way. Consider removing link

Link has been removed. Thanks for notifying us. Kpstewart (talk) 04:08, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

The external link to Savannah Cats in Canada links to one cattery in Canada. It is merely an advertisement and should be removed. That is not the purpose of Wikipedia. Only FACTUAL information should be provided. Please stop adding this back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.151.45 (talk) 15:47, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I've removed the link along with a non-sequitor story under Temperament. 72.240.193.160 (talk) 11:33, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I see you've reverted my edit without comment. If you would like to discuss whether or not the Drapers and their cat is worth mentioning, or whether this specific moment in its life is notable, we can do that here. Allow me to explain my reasoning for removing this paragraph:

I would like to point out that this page has had spam issues regarding the aforementioned Bella Gattini Cattery and the Savannah Cat Shoppe, whose websites are both registered to Kim Draper. This blurb about her family and her cat is a clear ploy to gain attention for her business, and should be regarded as spam.

I would also like to mention it hasn't eluded me that your IP address geolocates to the same immediate area as both the spam-happy cattery and the Draper family's (Lee, Kimberly, Marty and Matteo) home. I will assume good faith , but until we can discuss this properly I'll be removing the offending paragraph. 72.240.193.160 (talk) 06:37, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Agree that the link to a specific cattery should be deleted. Mention of the Savannah Cat Shoppe was done to inform people of where to view Scarlett's Magic. Mention of Draper family was done as we own the cat and it was special for our kids. We will not change back to avoid being labeled as spammers, which we do not intend to be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.151.45 (talk) 20:01, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I removed the info about the UK breeder under History, which was already removed a few weeks ago and added back. Please don't re-add it. If information about breeding savannah's in other countries is important enough, to merit its own section, that's fine, but then we should also mention all the countries that Savannah's have been bred in. Also, no need to give the name of the cat, or the name of the breeders, it's not really that historic of an event... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Finiteyoda (talk • contribs) 16:43, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Also, the 2nd part of the history section seems it was re-written to revolve around the role of Patrick Kelly, that part seems like its more about Patrick than Savannah's. Maybe someone wants to check teh references for that section, and ensure the section is written from a neutral perspective. Thanks, Finiteyoda (talk) 16:49, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Spam tag

I am removing the Spam tag because it is obvious the community supports these breed sites. Only two negative comments (one by anonymous and the other by the person who initiated the Spam tag). However a big thank you to Finiteyoda for helping to look out for our breed on Wikipedia!! --pfkelley 09:06, 07 September 2007 (UTC)

The link is to a commercial site that charges a fee to Savannah breeders to be included on list/website. It is not an authoritative site for the Savannah breed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.151.45 (talk) 19:58, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I remain skeptical. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 16:05, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

A1Savannahs spam

The link to A1Savannahs is spam. The statement that they are the founder of the breed is not correct. Remove A1Savannahs as the original founder of the breed. Current owner of A1Savannahs is not founder of the breed (Martin Stucki). This is an ad for a cattery. Article states that Joyce Sroufe with Patrick are founders and that Judee Frank originally cross bred the serval to a domestic cat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lifeatthesharpend (talk • contribs) 23:18, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Temperament

Can someone add information on the cat's temperment to the article? Seems to be a hole in the behavior area, unless that's typically not a problem with cats. Or something. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 05:53, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

I've added a bit to the temperament section, using what sources I could find. Let me know if you think we need more. --Finiteyoda 06:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I removed the aggressive statements, they seem to be put up by an animal activists. I personally own 13 of these cats from F1 down to F7. I have 2 F1's and 4 F2's and they sleep in my bed. They are absolutely not aggressive. Look at my videos of my cats on youtube under lifeatthesharpend. lifeatthesharpend | 7:16pm, Feb 7, 2011 (PST)

Feel free to contact me about before you remove the links to the videos of walking and jumping. the videos serve as prof and examples of the statements. I believe that they are relavent to the entry. lifeatthesharpend | 3:21pm, May 9, 2011 (PST)

Most of this annoying and unreliable temperament crap needs to be removed from all of these articles. It almost entirely consists of generalities that apply to all properly socialized house cats, regardless of breed, and breeder-invented suppositions and fantasy. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 16:07, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

In the last part there's one and the same thing stated three times: "and are likely to hide when strangers are present", "will find a hiding place until the party is over", "and are likely to hide when humans that they don't know are present". The information in that paragraph can be condensed a lot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.91.28.39 (talk) 19:57, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Size

I'm seriously confused about the weight. There are Savannahs weighing 25lbs. I get no original source, but if the page is clearly wrong, what is needed to correct it? Does someone have to get a grant to study savannah weights to publish a scientific paper? That seems excessive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.35.74.177 (talk) 04:32, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Found a good source about weight. If no objections, will post with source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meowzi (talk • contribs) 05:48, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Weight is not very helpful in conveying the size of the animal. What is the actual height at shoulder, snout to tail, etc? 09:02, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly what I was thinking as I looked for size in the article. Can someone please add it? Chillowack (talk) 01:19, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Please do not change the weight of the animals unless you have direct knowledge or own the cat that weighs that much and is also registered as a Savannah. If you are changing the weight of the cat please discuss it with the savannah community at large on the yahoo group lists. Either the mentors list, Savannah Cat Club, or Savannah pets. 25% - 26 % F2 Males are normally in the weight range of 20 to 25 lbs. While 50% F1 males can be larger they are generally taller and do not weigh to much more. I know of one 30% F2 male Razi, that is around 30 lbs and is the largest Savannah cat that I know of. He stands about 18 inches at the shoulder. Life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lifeatthesharpend (talk • contribs) 18:14, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

This article does mention the size, and that this breed is the biggest breed of domestic cat. That is not true. This is not a domestic cat at the F levels of the biggest cats. It doesn't matter what breeders and TICA says, it doesn't change the fact that this is still a hybrid cat, partially of a completely different species than the domestic cat, which is not even in the same genus.

In any case, the big Savannah cats are in the F1-F2 group. It's only by breeding serval with domestic cat continuously that it's possible to maintain a number of cats of well defined low F-level, and large size. Those cats do not represent the size of purebred Savannah cats, since they only breed true at the ~F6 level or more, according to the article. An F6 Savannah is only about 1/64 serval, but may have semi-retained the coat pattern and other characteristics by selective breeding (genetically they may be a bit more serval).

The big specimens, as it is now, are the low F level direct hybrids, not the potentially stable domestic breed and their existence proves that serval is still being bred into the Savannah breed. If we accept that this (F5 and beyond) hybrid is a true breed, then the breed consists of domestic cats with a number of selected serval(-ish) traits, and basically they're not bigger than other cat breeds (depending on how you define size, as mentioned above).2.104.66.152 (talk) 16:24, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Population

I think the population estimate of 22,000 examples in 2001 is incorrect. The number is supposedly from:

http://www.s-i-m-b-a.org/graphics/brazil%20art2.pdf

But it looks to me like it says "..estimate of not more than *200* examples". It would be good if someone else could confirm that I'm reading it right :-)

Also, the current number of TICA registered Savannahs is 3366 (private email - response to a question to www.savannahcat.com). This might be useful to add, as population data is sparse.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Markir (talk • contribs) 02:22, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Plagiarism

Someone please checkout this web page:

http://www.alpinesavannahs.com/about%20savannahs.html

The wording of wikipedia savannah cats article is remarkably similar. Which came first?

Also check out this which sounds very similar!

http://www.savannahcat.com.au/ Christopedia (talk) 16:53, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Outdoors?

Does anyone know if these cats can be let outdoors on their own? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 22:36, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

How does this hybrid work genetically?

I thought hybrids were only possible between animals of the same genus. But a serval's genus is Leptailurus and a domestic cat's is Felis. Wouldn't that mean the serval has been incorrectly classified? 75.76.213.106 (talk) 02:52, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

If you'd do some research, you'd note that they still are of the same family, the article on which indicates that geneticaly servals and domestic cats are not related 81.198.147.98 (talk) 18:00, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

There's no need to be insulting... especially as the original comment was more informed than your own. Family is a higher grouping than genus, so it does not follow that members of the same family can necessarily interbreed if members of different genus cannot. Further, your statement that "geneticaly servals and domestic cats are not related" is false, and arguably meaningless. They are certainly related; even you admit that they are in the same evolutionary family.

Now, on to the original question: hybrids are possible between different genus; they are known as intergeneric hybrids.

Joe Marfice 23:18, 8 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoeMarfice (talk • contribs)

Same thing is going on with the Bengal cat, a Felis × Pronailurus intergeneric hybrid. The routine viability of these hybrids (all within subfamily Felinae) has led some to ask whether some taxonomic reclassification is in order, but we'd need reliable sources for this, and this particular article probably isn't the place to cover that. A paragraph on it at Hybrid (biology) and one at Felinae is probably adequate.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:02, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Savannah cat, health and temperament

There seems to be a lot of "medical opinion" in the medical opinion section that goes way beyond Wikipedia into veterinary type information. It seems to me that it would be appropriate to mention that there are concerns about anesthesia, for example, and that those concerns aren't agreed on by all. But a listing of a bunch of drug names goes way too far. The only useful info to be gained from that detailed description is possibly for medical applications or guidance and Wikipedia doesn't seem like the right place for that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.35.76.48 (talk) 17:03, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Re the line in the article that says: "Some (but not all) experienced Savannah breeders believe strongly that modified live vaccines should not be used on Savannahs, that only killed virus vaccines should be used. This, also, has not been studied." Please modify this. From the perspective of a Savannah cat owner, I can tell you that this is a fact, at least for some Savannahs. My F3 Savannah was sick for almost a week when she was accidentally given a modified live virus vaccine. Potential owners should consult with the breeder (who usually gives this information upfront) or, if they are not sure, ask the vet to use a killed virus. Better to be safe than sorry. As far as temperament, they are very intelligent, very high-energy, eager to learn and to please, but extremely curious - kittens will need some supervision for the first 6 months to a year. They can get into all sorts of trouble if left alone; owners need to cat-proof their house. Savannahs can be trained to a certain extent, and can be walked on a leash, but they should not be allowed to roam free around the neighborhood. Keep in mind that if a neighbor sees a large Savannah, he or she - not knowing it's a domestic cat - might think it's a dangerous wild cat and be tempted to call animal control. Sonya042 (talk) 01:45, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Removing photos

Before removing others photos either enter a specific reason for the change or enter it in discussion to allow other to weight in on the change. This is in reference to "03:51, 7 August 2011 Leekimbud (talk | contribs) (19,952 bytes) (→Health considerations) (undo) " where they removed a photos that was posted. No reason was given about the removal and was not discussed. I'm undoing the removal. Please signin and enter justification for such changes. lifeatthesharpend 17:32, 7 August 2011 (PST)

Merge proposed

The "Ashera" article is a pretty much non-expandable stub about an attempt to scam people into thinking some Savannahs were a new breed. Does not need its own article, should just be a section here. It is well sourced, but having it be it's own article is utterly pointless. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 16:09, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish:  Done I agree with the merger. The sources in that article were very poor, and much of it seemed POV. Steven Walling • talk 01:56, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Hmm. All of that material now seems to be missing.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  16:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Updated Reference

I found the new location of a dead link but I am not familiar with the different reference templates that are available. This reference could probably do with formatting into the appropriate template. If I find time and remember I will look them up myself but in case I don't - I've noted it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danielmee (talk • contribs) 04:14, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

TICA conflict of interest

A TICA breeder is supposed to require the new owner to spay, or neuter their new pet within twelve weeks of purchase, and withhold the necessary paperwork to prove the animal is worth what you paid until it is done. This is a monopolizing scam meant to lower breeder competition. It is unethical treatment of animals, forced to be done by the new pet owner so the breeder looks better at a glance (until you're buying from them and find out about the requirement). It is not only unethical because you are harming the animals directly, but also because it keeps the genetic diversity too small, and will ultimately cause inbreeding. And, it most likely falls under extortion, and/or blackmail laws, being illegal. If it's not officially falling under laws already, proposing a law that specifically addresses this will pass. If the breeder has no official contract with the buyer that the buyer has agreed to these terms, the breeder will lose a court case. Even if such a contract is had, once it changes ownership, the last owner has no say, period. Further... Allegedly, the goal of breeders is to create an official, standardized breed that does not require continuously using a serval... That goal will NEVER be reached if all savannah cats are getting spayed, and neutered. It makes it so the breeders with servals, whom are obviously very rich people to own a serval, are the monopolizers, and prevents the savannah cat breed from progressing as a breed. These people are corrupting the breed, and more interested and prestige of rarity than the animal's well-being. They are animal abusers, and criminals. TICA needs to be investigated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.208.204.236 (talk) 21:11, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

A source link of what I'm typing about: THE INTERNATIONAL CAT ASSOCIATION, INC. VOLUNTARY CODE OF ETHICS Notice that almost the entire focus is on preventing the buyer from breeding, so the already approved breeders have less competition. The animal must either get spayed, or neutered, or lose the required paperwork to authenticity it's breed? That is not about the health, or happiness of the animal, it's about the bank account of the breeder. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.208.204.236 (talk) 21:19, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Cost, fraud

This should cover some societal/legal stuff aside from ownership laws, like highly publicized cases of fraud due to costs sometimes being over US$10K.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  22:53, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Start by restoring the merged Ashera material (see a couple of threads above).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  16:01, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 April 2020 and 7 May 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sammiavizius.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 08:43, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Ashera

Why is Ashera redirecting here when it is not mentioned in this article?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:09, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

what would happen if you bred one of these and a serval

Wikipedia is not a forum for speculation. This talk page exists only for improvement of the Savannah cat article.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:25, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
what would happen 2A02:C7F:FE0D:AC00:417E:7F3A:E592:19B (talk) 01:12, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

written like an advertisement

make it more neutral "owners even shower with them" for example is biased 102.222.6.97 (talk) 11:05, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Removed. I'll look through the rest of the article but you're right that sentence doesn't belong on Wikipedia. People do all sorts of things with their cats, putting your cat in the shower isn't notable - just weird. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:58, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I have just been going through this article removing all sorts of uncited cruft that had been lingering for years. What's shockingly absent from this article, short of an actual advertising jingle, is the welfare implications of the crossing of a serval with a domestic cat. The cat does not come off well, can be injured or even killed in the process, and may not even survive the birth of the F1 kittens. Finding a source for this was difficult, but we've got the Nat Geo article now as a good secondary WP:RS. "Because male servals are up to four times the size of a domestic cat, this can cause pregnancy complications, with the smaller mother giving birth to kittens 'bigger than her body was naturally meant to carry,' Tammy Theis [The Wildcat Sanctuary in Sandstone, Minnesota] says ... She, as well as the kittens, may not survive the encounter ... the mother may also be regarded as prey and scratched, bitten, or even killed by the male cat [Steve Crow, Cat Fancy, UK]" — Jon (talk) 21:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Others above have also noted the Ashera scam(s) and other instances of breeder fraud, which have been removed from the article and definitely should be mentioned. The New Yorker article notes the inflated price people are willing to pay for F1-F2 animals, rather than the normal-sized and cheaper pure-breed Savannahs. Buyers can be targeted by wildlife traffickers. Haven't drummed up the fortitude to word all this into the article yet, given the usual amount of brigading from offended fans that tends to happen soon afterwards. — Jon (talk) 22:45, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Mention of other breeds with susceptibility to HCM

@Jonathanischoice I removed the mention of other breeds as they have no relation to the Savannah and it's irrelevant and unfair to mention some breeds that are predisposed to the condition but not others when there is no relation between it and the article. The study itself states the predisposition in the Ragdoll and Maine Coon is 'because of myosin binding protein-C mutations', unless this mutation has been identified in the Savannah the study itself serves no bearing on the Savannah cat. I possibly found the source study used for the HCM susceptibility for the Savannah in WebMD but it only mentions a single Savannah cat. Including the unrelated study as a reference also implies the information comes to the study to any reader who doesn't review the citation further. Traumnovelle (talk) 22:15, 13 February 2024 (UTC) Traumnovelle (talk) 22:15, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Sure. There surely is an awful lot of junk out there about this breed in particular. — Jon (talk) 22:47, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

References