Talk:Postcyberpunk

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Sui genre[edit]

Is the 'Cryptonomicon' really a post-cyberpunk novel or even strictly speaking science fiction? It resembles more of techno-thriller, with alternative history elements, if anything. --Axon

I would say it is, going by the definition in the article. The book centres on the positive role played by technology in winning WW2, rather than focussing on its alienating potential. The characters are generally stable and well integrated in society, nothing like (for example) the aptly named 'Case' in Neuromancer. And there is a lot of technical material, which you don't really get with writers like Gibson.

It's not really Science fiction, agreed, but that is also true of much cyberpunk. Speculative fiction would be a more appropriate term all round. --R Lowry

What about the definition of postcyberpunk (shouldn't there be a hyphen in that title?) as 'realistic near-futures rather than space opera-style deep futures'? By your looser definition lots of things are post-cyberpunk fiction, including many modern techno-thrillers! And I would disagree with your assertion: most cyberpunk is largely what we would regard to be science fiction with a few minority texts in the fringes. --Axon

I have to agree with Axon here, I don't see anything at all about Cryptonomicon that qualifies it as "postcyberpunk", other than that it is, literally, written after the cyberpunk genre achieved it's apex of popularity. It's a thriller, it's not set in the future, but rather the present day, and largely concerned with a fictional(? I forget)historical mystery. Labelling it as "postcyberpunk" simply because it's written by Neal Stephenson (as appears to be the case) seems extremely silly to me, and I'm minded to edit it out of the list. --Eurhetemec

Agree strongly. Nothing in here at all that could be considered near-future. It's all in the present or past. Plus, despite the technology aspect, there's nothing science-fiction about the book. The most advanced concept in the book is digital money, which is not a science fiction concept but something that has been around for years. Yes, it's clearly an example of hacker-culture, and there's no dystopic vision, but without any science fiction elements at all I agree with Axon & Eurhetemec, and have taken it out of the article. Fairsing 17:51, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Postcyberpunk as a done-deal[edit]

I have a slight problem with this page: it smells somewhat a little of genre creation by Lawrence Person. He seems to have created the term singlehandedly copy-and-pasting his manifesto into cyberpunk and science fiction newsgroup postings. Rather disturbingly, 90% of posts on a search for postcyberpunk in google groups are either posted by Person himself, or are part of threads where he has posted.

I think the problem is that the article describes postcyberpunk superceding cyberpunk as fact, despite the fact that the term was only devised a few years ago and it is a little too early to start deciding what is and isn't a valid and successful sci-fi litirary movement. I think the NPOV would be improved by toning down the "cyberpunk is dead, long-live cyberpunk". --Axon 12:54, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The more I think about postcyberpunk, the more it comes across as a transitional thought. When the pioneer cyberpunk writers of the 80s got sick of the concept, there was a change in writing style as new writers came into the mix. But this is only a minor rationale for the change. The real change was our experience with the internet. Writers in the 90s incorporated the idea of a networked universe. As a side-thought, a networked universe implies a working society. This is perhaps why Person gravitated towards the "betterment of society" message. But as I state below, this doesn't hold water either in analyzing what came previously to 1993 or what came afterwards. The big problem is the "post" notion implies "came after," yet clearly the themes of the stories that come after 1993 do not line up to Person's definition of post-cyberpunk. At best the term is now a recognition that cyberpunk as a genre expanded past its earlier boundaries. Everything else just doesn't fit when we get past the few examples that Person lists, and the totality of the genre is taken in account.--Sfam 01:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jennifer Government[edit]

Why is this novel mentioned here? There is very little mention of futuristic technology (only breifly mentioned in one sentence about a weapon that is only used once), and it does not fit the article description of postcyberpunk at all. -- LGagnon 18:59, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Well, it does involve a totally Corp world, which is very Cyberpunk.193.243.227.1 (talk) 15:53, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That in itself is not enough to make it cyberpunk or postcyberpunk. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 16:55, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Postcyberpunk vs. Cyberprep[edit]

where exactly does the difference lie? --MilkMiruku 14:51, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

Postcyberpunk exists in a Dystopia while cyberprep does not.... I think-- Ruhtra

No, I think postcyberpunk strives for realism while cyberprep is more utopian. Loremaster 21:10, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The definition given in the article seems to fit handily, to me. Postcyberpunk would be the integration of future tech into a setting of a normal, functioning society, while cyberprep (future tech in an idealized society) could actually fit into a postcyberpunk setting, as could the original cyberpunk definition. They could both exist as facets of a postcyberpunk world, but by definition postcyberpunk defines a world where people are, for the most part, the same as we are now with only the addition of futuristic technologies. The Shadowrun game and series of novels would be a good example of the definition, as it has in the last 15 years (or so) created a fully realized world where high technology is a way of life. There are "cyberpreps" and "cyberpunks", but they both live in the postcyberpunk world. I tend to view the terms as I do their non-cyber equivalents. Preps tend to live in a more idealized setting, while punks live in the grunge of the world (I'm defining them *very* loosely, so please forgive me). The same could go for them when you add "cyber" to them. --DestradoZero 14:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I was going to post that if postcyberpunk is about middle-class professionals with social status, it should be called cyberprep. But I see that someone has already covered that. Felicity4711 (talk) 07:21, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Postcyberpunk= POINTLESS[edit]

Could someone explain WHY this is a genre? Any thing that could be considered "postcyberpunk" usually also as regular cyberpunk listed as well. (ex. The Ghost in the Shell page) and this really bothers me, how can it be POSTcyberpunk if its still regular Cyberpunk? Please explain this to me! --Anon.

Postcyberpunk is a subcategory of cyberpunk? --maru (talk) contribs 05:59, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

if its a sub genre, the page should say that instead of calling it a Sci-fi genre.

A subgenre is still a genre, and it falls within the supergenre of SF. --maru (talk) contribs 07:18, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This list is a mess; it's obvious from a glance that whatever cyber-entity compiled it has no idea what "postcyberpunk" means, if in fact it does have meaning. A book or movie cannot be both cyberpunk and postcyberpunk--that's absurd, and the genre titles that have appeared after cyberpunk (if there is an "after cyberpunk") have been so disparate that the only thing uniting them is the fact that they came out after cyberpunk. Postcyberpunk is not a genre--it's just a hamfisted attempt at a label that doesn't work. Cyberprep (or "cyberemo") is a much more accurate term for the type of writing that's come out of Net culture recently.

Agreed on post-cyberpunk being completely pointless. --Sfam 22:40, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Post-cyberpunk is a catchy term completely devoid of meaning. Perhaps around the turn of the 90s, when most of the original authors got sick of the genre, this term might have been applicable in a transitory way, but at this point, even that is lost. While LOTS of "traditional" cyberpunk books are still being written, allow me to discuss this term as it applies to film. For instance, in film and anime, I have watched over 180 cyberpunk movies and animes, and have seen NO distinction of this nature from films prior to 1993 and those after. You can check the reviews currently posted at my website, Cyberpunk Review. Far more interesting are many of the distinctions in content, including extreme japanese cyberpunk movies, cyberpunk dystopias, man-machine interface movies, android movies, bodyless AI movies, VR movies, etc. All of these are real distinctions. A determination of whether the lead character is trying to better society or not ends up the subject of interpretation (is Spider Jerusalem really a post-cyberpunk????), and more to the point, the distinction is a rather minor one in the grand scheme of things - certainly not one that is in any way definitional for the genre.

I would be happy to run through about 50-60 movies and animes created after 1993 if anyone's interested in this, but truly, the numbers are overwhelmingly against this as being any sort of meaningful distinction. The final nail in the coffin though are the cyberpunk movies prior to 1993 - about half of them have main characters dealing with the betterment of society (Robocop, Reece in terminator, George Orr in Lathe of Heaven, Tron, Appleseed, Gunhed, Black Magic M-66, and yes, a case can even be made for Deckherd in Blade Runner, not to mention Ripley in Alien, the Man in La Jetée, and Johhan in Metropolis). Then again, perhaps Person would consider these examples to be part of the "pre-post-cyberpunk" movement. Worse, one of the themes we see in cyberpunk involves people, who clearly are out to improve mankind, but instead end up destroying it through carelessness - this theme almost invalidates the idea of post-cyberpunk by itself. Feel free to discuss further on my forum if interested. --Sfam 22:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I concur in at l;east as the concept is presented in this article it is pointless. As the article stands it seems a false sub-genre with little to either recommend its use as a tool in analyzing fiction nor as a meaningful genera for classifying works. This seems most evident to me due primarily with the huge amount of gray area in the definition that leaves many works being absurdly classified both as Cyberpunk and Postcyberpunk.--68.231.174.183 08:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've always considered "postcyberpunk" to be an otherwise normal setting that includes elements of cyberpunk. Somewhere in the middle, between cyberpunk and cyberprep. Upon closer inspection, though, it seems that there should be a different term for this. Regular "sci-fi" could fit for most "postcyberpunk" classifications (the ones that aren't blatantly cyberpunk), but it seems that some don't quite fit into this standard definition. DestradoZero 15:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Unlike "classic" cyberpunk, however, the works in tying to his category feature characters who act to improve social conditions or at least protect the status quo from further decay" heres the thing though in a lot of cyberpunk they are trying to help society to Deus Ex is cyber punk and the main characters only goal is to save the world.

This one would argue both that Deus ex is a great example of Postcyberpunk, due to themes of renewal regrowth, and assertion that it is people who use technology to weaken society, instead of technology weakening society as an attribute of itself.

Unlike in cyberpunk examples I have seen, Deus ex takes a broad look at society, and visits locals and individuals who characterize an upturn in society, a positive outlook amongst devastating social change. As one of the key differences between Cyberpunk and postsyberpunk is the negative social outlook of the former, coupled with idea that technology disenfranchises, and alienates, I would not put Deus Ex in the cyberpunk category. I also think it should be added to the article, as an example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.81.252.210 (talk) 20:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Overhaul of RPG Paragraph[edit]

The paragraph regarding postcyberpunk RPGs was highly erroneous and I made some major corrections, primarily adding the actual first of these games and information on it and its predecesor.

It could do with rather more overhauling if you ask me, the idea that Cyberpunk 2020 is a predecessor of Shadowrun is a little dubious, given that Shadowrun must have been in development when CP2020 was published (Cyberpunk 2013 is a different matter) and I would also strongly question the idea that Shadowrun is truly "postcyberpunk", as it is still a game about disenfranchised loners the "SINless" "shadowrunners" committing criminal acts against the background of a largely dystopian corporate regime. Technology is still alienating (witness "essence loss" from cyberware and bioware), the net is entirely unrealistic in it's portrayal.

I really don't see any way in which it can be classed as "postcyberpunk", certainly if you're talking about 1989 release. It could be classed as "fantasy" instead of cyberpunk, but it's firmly back in the "alienated loner with a grudge and a gun" territory rather than being about individuals engaged with society to any degree.

I also think it's pretty important to include Cybergeneration in the list of "postcyberpunk" games, because it's quite genuinely postcyberpunk. It's a game about the generation after cyberpunk, is focused on teenage kids, all of whom are engaged with society via various subcultures, even though distanced by the carbon-virus, and it's dystopia is very subtly dystopian (and arguably not a dystopia at all, just a rather boring place to live). The virtual reality is somewhat more realistic, or more fully realized, and the "enhancements" are nanotechnological rather than implants. --Eurhetemec

You're totally correct. CP2013, CP2020, and CPv3 are a competing product line, not predecessors in the usual sense (You wouldn't call a Ford pickup a "predecessor" to a Chevy even though Ford made cars before Chevrolet). I'd also agree that there's nothing post- about Shadowrun or CP2020. Cybergen is postcyberpunk, and CPv3 has substantial postcyberpunk influence and could easily be played in either mode. But I'm not gonna fight it out here.Zabieru 08:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think I have to agree with this pretty much, even with my addition of Shadowrun to the list. Most of these would be considered cyberpunk, and although SR does have elements of postcyberpunk in both definitions as "normal life with tech" and "generation after cyberpunk" (SR's world is about 30-40 years into their 'cyber era'), the focus tends to be on the cyberpunk aspect.

I have to disagree with the body's rejection of invasive technology as "alienating", though. That's just an example of putting stuff where it wasn't originally intended, not an aspect of society's rejection of technology. Cyberware is commonplace in Shadowrun, and as such wouldn't be considered "fringe" or "counter-culture". It's similar to people having cell-phones and tattoos now. That is the aspect of Shadowrun that is most closely defined as postcyberpunk, I would think. This is the generation after the first to be exposed to cyberpunk, and as such they have adapted it and include it in their daily lives. DestradoZero 15:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

External links weakly related[edit]

I've cut these links as they would only seem relevant for defining postcyberpunk if they were referenced in the text, see WP:EL: -- Ashley VH (talk) 16:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nova Express Online Issue #16 Table of Contents
Post-cyberpunk? Why not Cyberpunk 2.0! as posted on Cyberpunkreview.com
Cyberpunk Radio San Francisco broadcasting the cyberpunk ethos via the Pluri Media Group
Cyberpunk TV! Hack Virtual Television the video version of Cyberpunk Radio SF

Examples and necessity of article[edit]

The examples list is a mess and should be cleaned up. The "books" category contains some movies (The Fifth Element) and Games (Deus Ex). I also think it is too long to really be useful. Deus Ex and probably other examples mentioned in this article are also classified as being examples of cyberpunk. The question is: which are they?

Related to these issues: Why is this article even separate? I think considering its length it would be perfectly sufficient to merge it into the cyberpunk article, e.g. separate the examples there in cyberpunk proper and postcyberpunk etc. 78.49.61.7 (talk) 12:36, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

deletion by argumentation?--Esteban Barahona (talk) 04:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ths "subgenre" remains very limited (hence the difficulty in sourcing the examples list). It basically still rests on the definition by one guy in some fanzine. As it will not grow much more, i'm neutral/pro about merging. But if it does happen, it should be a small section in cyberpunk, and the rest goes to cyberpunk derivatives (which already has almost all the info that this article has anyway, and was where Cyberprep got merged to).Yobmod (talk) 09:08, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was actually just thinking wether to delete it or not... later I thought it's better being merged in another article (and clean it up there). As apparently this term is based on but 1 person, then the most appropiate place will be *drums roll*:

Cyberpunk_derivatives#Other_proposed_derivatives

Esteban Barahona (talk) 17:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seems the term is used a lot in the real world[edit]

Google shows "43,000 for Postcyberpunk OR post-cyberpunk". The widespread use of the term in the real world would indicate the need to keep a separate article.

Asspunk needs a seperate page

That doesn't prove anything. We need non-trivial coverage by multiple third party sources. Plus you need to learn to use google better - it doesn't understand hyphens, hence it finds 78,000 pages with "Ass-punk"Yobmod (talk) 10:15, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Intro paragraph[edit]

I think it is now a stretch to say that Stephenson is known 'primarily' for his work in postcyberpunk. Only Diamond Age and Snow Crash are, without dispute, in that genre. Stephenson has now published the Baroque Cycle and Anathem. Leoniceno (talk) 06:01, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whoops, wrong talk page. Leoniceno (talk) 06:01, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]