Talk:Secret Fire

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Hnau[edit]

I removed the name "hnau" as a description of sentient beings. It's not Tolkien's word, but C.S. Lewis'. (Out of the Silent Planet). DJ Clayworth 15:48, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I'm going to add it back. Tolkien used the term in his own writings, I just created an article on hnau. Tolkien and Lewis were friends, and read and influenced each other's fiction. — Jor 15:50, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

N/m the above. — Jor 16:02, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Secret Fire as Holy Spirit?[edit]

I'm removing this section, as the idea of Eru as the Christian God is highly questionable. At best, it needs NPOV rewriting as one possible perspective, and I'd suggest checking out Eru_Ilúvatar, and particularly Talk:Eru_Ilúvatar, first. -- Perey 12:11, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Clyde Kilby says that Tolkien told him that the Secret Fire is the Christian Holy Spirit. To me, this is pretty clear when reading the Lord of the Rings typologically, which is the traditional Catholic way used to interpret the Old Testament. Also, this image of a secret, interior fire has strong parallels with Catholic and Orthodox mysticism, in particular, St. Teresa of Avila's Interior Castle. --Marcusscotus1 18:52, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly, but then I'm sure that many other religions have similar "interior fires". If there is no source for this hypothesis then it should be left out as original research. Peace, IronC hris | (talk) 19:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That might be so but other religions can neither claim Tolkien as an adherent nor point to the statement referenced above. Str1977 ^(talk) 16:04, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Spoiler warning (regarding Gandalf and Narya)[edit]

I hope this doesn´t sound too picky (I believe it doesn´t, since many articles regarding LOTR do have similar warnings), but this article openly mentions Gandalf wielding Narya. This is only revealed by the end of the Return of the King. The ring-bearers are a mystery till the end of the novel (with the exception of Galadriel).

What about a spoiler warning? :)

Well, I don't think it's that a big deal. One, is the name "Narya" mentioned in LOTR at all? So, if the reader can make the connection between "Narya" and The Three, she probably read the Silmarillion (or its appendix) already and hence it wouldn't be a spoiler. Besides, I think people looking around for specific articles on a particular aspect of a fictional world should expect to find "spoilers". novakyu (talk) 10:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Flame of Anor = Secret Fire?[edit]

For the longest time (until I read this article to be precise), I had assumed that the "Flame of Anor" was none other than Glamdring, Gandalf's sword. It would sound logical, as the sword was of Noldorin origin, and Anor also means the West. Also, Gandalf's words on the bridge on Khazad-Dûm "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor" seem to indicate that the Secret Fire and the flame of Anor are two different things. Any thoughts on this possibility?

An interesting hypothesis, found here, states that this expression might just have been poetic and didn't point to something precise. But I doubt that Tolkien would write something "just poetic" without an idea in mind. IronC hris | (talk) 03:36, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Anor actually means 'Sun'. I agree that the Secret Fire and flame of Anor were different things because Gandalf clearly did not wield the Secret Fire (which belonged to Eru alone). Also, in a prior draft Gandalf instead says that he is the wielder of 'white fire' as opposed to the 'red fire' of the Balrog. From these I have generally taken the 'flame of Anor' to be a reference not to an object, but rather the type of fire Gandalf wielded... the uncorrupted/lifegiving flame of the Sun. Consider all that bit about how the Balrog's fire would not avail it because Gandalf wielded the Flame of Anor (and the Balrog them damping it's flame and increasing the shadow)... I don't think Glamdring would have protected Gandalf from fire, but his own mastery of such could have. Some follow similar reasoning to conclude that Gandalf was speaking of Narya, the Ring of Fire, as 'the flame of Anor', but as that was a secret it seems unlikely to me. --CBDunkerson 15:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Secret Fire required to create languages?[edit]

The article for Black Speech states: The Black Speech was likely based entirely on Valarin, as Morgoth and his Maiar (all of whom would have spoken Valarin) minions did not possess the Secret Fire, but were only able to corrupt things to their service.

This suggests that one must possess the Secret Fire in order to be able to invent languages. Regardless of whether this is confirmed or speculation, the issue should be addressed in this article. SpectrumDT 20:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Flame of Arnor[edit]

What if the Flame of Anor actually refers to the city Minas Arnor? I believe this because when he refers to the balrog, he calls it the Flame of Udûn, and Udûn was the fortress where the balrogs were most known to be associated with. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.225.181.206 (talk) 03:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC). "Anor" means sun, "Udun" means hell - he is pitting the flame of the sun against the fires of hell. Str1977 ^(talk) 16:07, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Paradise Lost[edit]

Re this edit (edit tag: rm Paradise Lost as a single book by some odd author is of no importance here) — I would appreciate hearing your reasons for removing the reference to Paradise Lost. The reference (which is not my addition) clarifies which aspect of Satan's legend is being referred to; since other traditions about him are quite different, I feel this contributes to the reader's understanding. Shippey in fact describes The Silmarillion as a "calque on Paradise Lost". It is clear that Tolkien was familiar with and influenced by Milton, who is not exactly "some odd author". — Elphion (talk) 14:59, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unless you bring evidence by either a Tolkien scholar or the man himself that "Paradise Lost" (and not the tradtional account of Lucifer's rebellion and fall in general) was the direct influence on Tolkien here - and by here I mean, on the element of the "secret fire" - Milton has no place in this article. And note that Satan's rebellion and fall are actually not covered in Milton, who starts immediately after the fall. Regardless of what one thinks of Milton, he is not the one-and-all of all literature. 19:12, 7 March 2010 (UTC)