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The Inter-Cities Fairs Cup and Copa Latina (Latin Cup) are not official titles[edit]
The previous version stated that, in European football (with a link to the article "List of UEFA club competition winners"), FC Barcelona had 19 titles. However, the 3 Inter-Cities Fairs Cup and the 2 Copa Latina (Latin Cup) of FC Barcelona are not considered official UEFA competitions, therefore, the statement is incorrect.
Barcelona has currently 14 official European titles (5 UCL, 5 Europe Super Cup, 4 Cup Winner's Cup) DrakeXper (talk) 00:24, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By obvious reasons, and as the manual of style for other articles about football clubs (See: Real Madrid for example), only those international titles that are official by the international football organizations, FIFA or UEFA (or the equivalent) are mentioned in the lede.
The Inter-Cities Fairs Cup was a non-UEFA championship in which only a handful of European cities participated, those that had trade fairs or commercial agreements between them.
The Latin Cup was a non-UEFA championship in which only some clubs belonging to Latin Europe (Spain, Portugal, Italy and France) participated.
Inter-Cities Fairs Cup and Latin Cup are not official FIFA or UEFA titles. DrakeXper (talk) 17:23, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FC Barcelona has 14 official European titles (5 UCL, 5 Europe Super Cup, 5 UEFA Cup Winner's Cup), and 3 FIFA Club World Cups. DrakeXper (talk) 17:52, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1. The fact that the Fairs Cup and the Latin Cup have not been organized by UEFA does not mean that they are not recognized as official European competitions. Recently, the Supreme Court of the European Union ruled that UEFA did not have the exclusivity of European football. Official competitions can be played independently of UEFA supervision. These two competitions were contested with the supervision and organization of several official statements. If you read the sentence of the article, it makes it very clear: In European football (groups all the European titles) and not in UEFA football. Maybe the link would be wrong. I think the link should be removed.
- Latin Cup: was organised and recognised by four national federations including RFEF. El Caganer (talk) 19:04, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, the problem is the link to the titles recognized by UEFA. But the fact that the two competitions (Latin and Fairs Cup) are official is more than proven. El Caganer (talk) 19:11, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They are official in the sense that they existed and were obviously competed for. But they are not UEFA or FIFA titles, and their value is questionable for the Lede as they were not disputed by the vast majority of the rest of the clubs in Europe.
Would you include Joan Gamper in domestic titles? Obviously not, and they are not included. DrakeXper (talk) 19:14, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My point is that:
1- The article, with a link, implied that they are UEFA (when they are not)
2- The Lede for articles about football clubs (See Real Madrid for example) don't include international titles that are not UEFA. As you can see, Real Madrid's Latin Cups are not included in the Lede. DrakeXper (talk) 19:11, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the link that redirects to the UEFA titles should be removed. The Real Madrid CF page in the Honors section includes the Latin Cup. I think that doubting FIFA is not a good argument to say that they are not official. The link I have attached is from the official FIFA page and make it clear that they are major honors. I want to remind you that last year the RFEF awarded Levante UD a Copa del Rey title (1937) that the federation itself had not organized. Once a national or international federation recognizes a title, it becomes official. El Caganer (talk) 19:26, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1- We are talking about International titles, not domestic titles.
1- We are talking about the Lede, not sections of the body of the article.
It makes no sense to mention international titles that are not UEFA or FIFA in the Lead. Real Madrid's Latin Cups are not included in the Lead. DrakeXper (talk) 19:32, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just because Real Madrid CF doesn't have it in their article doesn't mean it has to be the same way in this article. A long-standing consensus has been created in this article for years. I will edit the page again and leave it as it was (I will remove the link that can generate confusion) and if in the next few days there is another consensus among users, I will respect the decision. El Caganer (talk) 19:39, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can't find what consensus you're talking about.
Real Madrid was just an example. The custom for any Lede on an article about a European Football Club is to not include international titles that are not from FIFA or UEFA. DrakeXper (talk) 19:56, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These titles have already been recognized as official by FIFA and official football statistics collectors like IFFHS and RSSSF, so I support El Caganer stance on them remaining in the lead. As for DrakeXper's point that Real Madrid's article doesn't have the Latin Cup in the lead, well it can be added in that article's lead as well and problem solved. These are important titles that paved the way for modern European and Worldwide club competitions to be created, so their importance should be mentioned in the lead and shouldn't be removed, in fact they should also be added in the leads of the other clubs' articles who have also won them. Nori2001 (talk) 20:27, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As a matter of fact, I just checked the articles of the other clubs that had won the Inter Fairs Cup and they all had it in the lead, you can check out for yourselves in the articles of Arsenal, Roma, Newcastle, Leeds United, Valencia, etc. Nori2001 (talk) 20:35, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
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Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. EphemeralPerpetuals (they/them)talk 13:14, 14 January 2024 (UTC)