User talk:MathKnight/Archives2

Archives of User Talk:MathKnight from September 9, 2004 to December 3, 2004

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I've been nominated for adminship

Hi MathKnight

I've been nominated for adminship, and as we've been involved together editing pages I thought you might want to vote and/or weigh in with your opinion. If you're interested, you'll find the voting under Wikipedia:Requests for adminship. Voting ends very soon. Jayjg 00:42, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Happy Rosh HaShana

Hi there, just wanted to tell you that I find it a scandal that the UEFA did not manage to find a day to play the Champions League game on a day where no religious feelings would have been hurt.
I hope you do not take offense by my remarks on the Post-September 11 anti-war movement article discussion. I was quite involved in anti-war activities when the Iraq war started and I studied in Geneva at HEI, where Kofi Annan had graduated as well. At the time I often met with a friend who is from Israel, and our discussions were very interesting and I got a lot of new insights about the conflicts with the Palestinians. My friend is not narrowminded at all, and still I had the impression that it hurt him when I talked about the illegality of the war or that it would drive more Muslims into the arms of violent lunatics. I did not know what to do about it. I really like your beautiful country that I visited in '97 and where I met a lot of very sympathetic people. I can very well understand that Israelis tend to accept violence more than Europeans as a means of defense given the violence they are exposed to every day. I just think that one is not entitled to excuse a war of aggression with "defense". Lies at the Security Council are unacceptable, and law has to be respected, otherwise others will not respect the law either. To me and many others it was obvious that the situation could only escalate as it does with unprecedented terror in Iraq and many other countries. While nearly all of Afghanistan was still uncontrolled and devastated, more money was paid for the Iraq war than all development aid of all countries taken together. That way you will never get peace and prosperity. Take your own country, the economy suffers tremendously from the permanent conflict, which is a shame as there is a lot of potential. No fence can solve that. Here in Berlin people are very happy that they could tear the wall down that once separated those who used to demonize each other. Nowadays more tourists than ever visit our city. And compared to Israel Berlin has bad weather, no seaside, no mountains, no terrific religious sites, no desert, very few camels... Life is so much better when you get along with your neighbours. Get-back-world-respect 17:23, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind response.
I understood that you reaction came because you got the (wrong) impression that the entire article debunks the anti-war movement as antisemitic and serving-the-Islamists. The entire article was worked out by Joe Mable and in lengthy discussions between us, in order to create a NPOV article. Other sections are treating the reasons why the anti-war movement resists the USA war in Iraq. While they have some good arguments, with others I just don't disagree. There is also a disagreement between us about the basis assumptions regarding the situation.
As an Israeli, I might say I know my block (i.e. the Middle East) better than you. I know that modern Europe thinks that almost every problem can be solved through nagotiations and that war doesn't solve anything. The experience of Israel showed that is not always true. There are cases, when you stand against someone devoted to your extermination (such as terrorist groups like Hamas), that no nagotiation will help and you must use force in order to protect your people. The war in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip was forced on Israel, in order to stop the wave of suicide bombers which plauged our cities. The Israeli West Bank barrier, wrongly compared to the Berlin Wall is a counter-terrorist measure which proven as a real life-saver.
War isn't the preferable situation to be, and it indeed burden the economy, but still - it is far less worse then the alternativ of countless suicide bombings which scare tourists and investors, and hurting thousands of innocents. Of course it will be a lot better if we could get along with our neighbours, but peace needs two. Most Israelis (including me) believe (justifiedly, IMHO) that the current Palestinian leadership does not want peace. After the Camp David 2000 summit and the al-Aqsa Intifada we felt betrayed. Ehud Barak and later Sharon tried to talk the Palestinian to stop the bombings, but unfortunately, it was like talking to a wall. However, the Israeli military reaction, combined with the fence, reduced the terrorists attacks dramaticly.
MathKnight 18:26, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Forgive me my sarcasm, but the government of the German "Democratic" Republic also claimed that the "anti-fascist protection wall" saved hundreds from wasting their life to capitalist exploitation.

I share your belief that the current Palestinian leaders do not want peace. But they are only leaders as long as they have support. And they lose support if Palestinians eventually see that violence does not help them either. To make them see that it does not help that when an International Court gives advise the government ignores it. No one said they should tear down the wall, it was just said that the fully legitimate aim to defend Israel could be achieved with less harm. It would help Israel's image a lot to say "we disagree, but we accept the ruling and adjust the line".

When in Israel I met a young soldier who was interested in one of my friends. They flirted a bit, but the situation got a bit tense when he started to talk about his time at the military and how he once shot a Palestinian child that had crossed the boarder. When we looked at him in shock and disbelief he just shrigged and said, "Well, he knew that he had no right to be there." I think that young soldiers who permanently have to fear for their lifes cannot be expected to take the right decisions at every point of time. But a government has to take decisions responsibly and apologize in cases where mistakes happened. In Israel the conflict is characterized by mutual permanent violence and so escalated that it is really difficult to find a solution.

The Iraq case was however straightforward. There were weapons inspections, and the inspectors said they made progress. The US said they knew Iraq was lying and that there were weapons of mass destruction. They did not explain why although they claimed to have proofs the proofs could not be used to find the weapons peacefully. Some "proofs" even turned out to be forgeries, and as we all know today, none of the proofs really were proofs, as the US still has not presented any weapons of mass destruction. A clear majority of the Security Council opposed the war. However, the US media made the population believe that the whole opposition was to be blamed on Chirac, and that Hussein not only could start to use his weapons of mass destructions within the next 30 minutes, but also that he somehow shared the responsibility for September 11. So international law was ignored and a war started. Who would expect anything else than the trust in the US vanished, a trust that could have been used by the superpower to mediate and calm down conflicts. And who would expect anything else than Muslims all over the world getting radical, terrorism escalating to unprecedented levels, killing more than 1.000 soldiers and thousands from other countries? You may not call Bush the biggest terrorist, but he certainly created more terrorists than anyone else. Get-back-world-respect 18:57, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I will excuse your sarcasm here. Indeed, many Israeli officials claim that the fence save hundred of life, but almost 75% of the Israeli public also think so. Moreover, you can check for yourself that the number of terrorist attack on northern Israel and Gush Dan (where there is a fence) has sharply decreased - to almost zero. Recent attacks were commited in Jerusalem southern Israel - where there is no fence.

Israel ignored the ICJ ruling because it felt it was a "sold game", however - when the Israeli Supreme court ruled that part of the barrier path should be re-routed because it harms Palestinian peoples, Israel obeyed.

As for your example. You are right, Israeli soldiers are facing hard dilemmas on daily basis - where their lives are in endanger. It sound shocking when an Israeli soldier is shooting a child, but Israeli soldiers have caught in the passed Palestinian children carrying explosive belts. Some even managed to blow themselves up in Israeli cities. This is indeed a problematic cituation, and the Palestinian don't help by using children as suicidal nail bomb delivary system.

As you said, the government should find a solution, but it is not that simple. The situation is very complex and the fact that Palestinian terrorist hide among civilians - only contribute to the violence and blood-shedding. So far, the Israeli government tries to disengage from Palestinian population center by building a fence which will block up the way of suicide bombers into Israeli cities, and remove Jewish residents who lived there for almost 30 years. It is very hard and painful. MathKnight 19:54, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I agree that the use of children is evil and puts Israel in a terrible dilemma. In the situation the soldier told us about he had no indication that the child was a terrorist, besides that it was trying to cross the border, and he did not give any reason why the child had to be shot dead rather than stopped in a humane way. Of course this one situtation cannot be used to judge the whole conflict but it shows that in such a terribly difficult situation errors are committed on both sides and one should try to understand why. I can understand that a young guy who feels permanently threatened does not behave in a way I would regard as morally appreciable from my save desk in Berlin. I also understand that a desperate Palestinian whose child has been shot by an Israeli soldier does not behave in a way I would regard as morally appreciable from my save desk in Berlin either. Same thing about the settlers. I understand that they are outraged when they are forced to leave where they used to live for many years. Maybe some even lived there before the wars and occupation started? I can also understand that some Palestinians are outraged about the fact that Israel will not even negotiate their return to where they lived before the wars. On the other hand I can understand that Jews insist that given the terrorism they are exposed to they cannot accept the return of millions of former neighbours and their children whom they do not trust. But I do not want to expand too much on a conflict about which I really do not have much to say. :::The main point why I was writing to you was that I see good reason why so many all over the world strongly opposed the Iraq war, and that this per se has nothing to do with bad feelings towards Israel, the US or the war against terror. Get-back-world-respect 22:41, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Interesting discussion on article deletion

You might be interested in this:

Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Occupation_of_Palestine Jayjg 05:37, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Vote

See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Occupation of Palestine

Eyal Berkovich

Hi MathKnight, rewrote the article on Eyal Berkovich, incorporating your original article, to follow more closely articles on other football players. Also added a lot of infomation on his career, whereas your original tended to focus more on only his "hot temperament", which I know caused concern regarding NPOV with one or two other users.

Think the result's ok, hope you agree. Grunners 12:30, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The changes are O.K. But I have added some more information from the old version. MathKnight 12:56, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Violence_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict_2004

Hello, the PDT numbers appear to be cumulative, adding each months dead to the previous month. The IDT number appear not be to cumulative. One example is that January 2004 and February 2004 have the same IDT: 16 despite the death toll of 11 during that month.

Why not distinguish civilian vs soldier dead in IDT just as we do armed vs unarmed dead in PDT?

Your thoughts, please. Lance6Wins 14:25, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I don't problen with civilian\soldier count, but the IDT and PDT should not be comulative. It is clearly written that it stands for the casualties killed each month.MathKnight 14:49, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Okay, I can live with that, happily even!. That was the original way of recording the numbers. A certain individual introduced cumulative PDT numbers. So rather than fight that, I made them both cumulative. Shall I change it month by month? Please respond on my talk page so that I get a tickler. Thank you. Lance6Wins 19:59, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Vote: Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Violence against Israelis

See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Violence against Israelis. Thank you. IZAK 09:39, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Support

See Wikipedia:Requests for comment/IZAK. Thank you. IZAK 03:15, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

UNRWA

I'm a bit reluctant to get involved here again, but what the heck. At a glance, I suspect that Zero is going to have some problems with it, but I don't want to say much else until he's responded. Just two things though - you might want to run some of these additions through a grammar and spell-checker to pick up any mistakes, and note that Peter Hansen doesn't point to the UNRWA guy, but to some astronomer, so it should probably be unlinked unless someone creates an article on him. Ambi 12:19, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. MathKnight 12:27, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Al-Aqsa Intifada

Kingal86 is vandalizing the Al-Aqsa Intifada page again. Jayjg 08:58, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice, I'll keep an eye for it. MathKnight 10:43, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Sam Spade

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Sam Spade

Vote "NO". Opposed to SamSpade's unfriendly views in the Jew article. IZAK 09:09, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Request for adminship/Neutrality

You might be interested in this vote: Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Neutrality Jayjg 18:48, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yom Kippur template

Hi Math, congratulations on the Yom Kippur template which I just noticed now. However, there is one spelling mistake: "Jewish judgement" ---> should be "Jewish judgment", there is no "e" between the "g" and "m". Beautiful job, I will enjoy seeing the others I am sure, if I spot something I will let you know...All the best! IZAK 08:03, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, but the template was taken from Rosh HaShana article, and table orginaly created by User:Neutrality, so he deserves the credit. MathKnight 17:26, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"(Israel) in contravention of the Partition plan, began killing and ethnically cleansing Palestinian Arab population. Palestine's five neighbour states then.."

Please see History of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict#The war for Palestine where User:HistoryBuffer insists on inserting: that Israel "in contravention of the Partition plan, began killing and ethnically cleansing Palestinian Arab population. Palestine's five neighbour states then attacked Israel."...When no-one but he says this, and refuses to accept anything else. He also insists on editing-away lots of NPOV's that don't suit him, take a look at [1] please. IZAK 08:38, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I see. I redirected the issue the User:Jayjg, who has adminship. MathKnight 10:05, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thank you. IZAK 05:02, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

RfC

I have opened a RfC concerning Alberuni. If you feel you can comment on this, please view Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Alberuni Jayjg 14:41, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You have a point. I saw Talk:Al Mezan Center for Human Rights and it was impossible to get to-the-point answer with all his verbal attacks and flames. Also notice that the page itself was copied from the Al Mezan official website. I commented on RfC. MathKnight 18:19, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sabra and Shatila Massacre

Please note, usual nonsense of major POV edits with no explanations on the Sabra and Shatila Massacre article. Jayjg 19:57, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Again HistoruBuffEr is vandalizing? Isn't there a procedure against his vandalizing? He also vandalize the Operation Days of Penitence page, if you have SysOp authority, I suggest a temporary protection until he cool offs and use the Talk page and not vandalize. MathKnight 20:02, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Also note 1982 Lebanon War for similar behaviour by a different user. Jayjg 20:34, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Shalom MK, got your msg. I'm not a sysop. Perhaps we should start some kind of ADL-project here. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 07:57, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

See Operation Rainbow

You might be interested in the recent major changes to Operation Rainbow Jayjg 23:53, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

HistoryBuffEr's RFC against Proteus

You might be interested in this as well: Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Proteus. Regards, Jayjg 21:49, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yasser Arafat

Looks like his sympathizers are crawling out now and they are finally objecting to your category Palestinian terrorists. Any help is appreciated to call the fish what he is. Jewbacca 04:26, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

They're doing the same on Palestinian Liberation Organization, insisting that it is not a Palestinian terrorist group. Jayjg 16:15, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Terrorist categories

Wikipedia:Categories for deletion has two lists of categories related to terrorists up for deletion. Jayjg 20:50, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Could you provide more info on what going on there? MathKnight 17:08, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Image of Merkava

File:Merkava07.jpg

I noticed that you uploaded this image from the Hebrew Wikipedia, and was hoping that you could provide an image copyright tag. I tried to glean its copyright status from the he: page [2], but as I don't read Hebrew, I had little luck :-) Thanks, David Iberri | Talk 16:19, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

I am very dissatisfied from this picture and I want to replace it, so I don't much of a problem if it will be deleted. In the Hebrew Wiki there are no details over this picture source or copyrights. It is one of those picture which are hanging around in the net. I try to find better copyright-free picture of the Merkava, but so far with no sucess. Any help is appriciated. MathKnight 17:12, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If you'd like it to be deleted, you can add it to Wikipedia:Images for deletion. --David Iberri | Talk 19:59, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

Not until a better replacement will be found. MathKnight 20:10, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yasser Arafat (again)

Please keep an eye on the Yasser Arafat article if you can, as a concerted POV attack was made on it last night. I've done my best to retain any good edits while restoring NPOV, but I expect the vandalism to resume soon. Jayjg 16:54, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion

See these six categories up for "votes of deletion":

Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:Palestinian_terrorists and Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:Palestinian_terrorist_organizations and Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:Middle_East_terrorists and Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:Terrorist_organizations and Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:Islamic_terrorist_organizations and this one too: Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:Jewish_terrorist_organizations

IZAK 10:10, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Opinion for IZAK

Please see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/IZAK/Evidence. Thank you. IZAK 06:56, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

HistoryBuffEr arbitration

I've asked for Arbitration on HistoryBuffEr, and thought you might be interested. You'll find the relevant section on WP:RFAR. Jayjg 19:47, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye on this page, but please brief about the rules of the arbitaration process. MathKnight 21:01, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, if the arbitration is accepted, then people bring evidence and comment on the case, and then the abitrators rule on the case. Jayjg 01:13, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Israeli peace movement

Aloha. I noticed that you redirected the title Israeli peace movement to Israeli peace camp in September. which I have to admit, I don't understand. The term "Israeli peace movement" is used far more than "Israeli peace camp". For example, Google returns 10,800 hits for "Israeli peace movement", and 7,860 hits for "Israeli peace camp". Maybe you could explain to me the reasons for the current name. Thanks in advance. --Viriditas 06:22, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In Wiki and other sources, I that the term "the peace camp" ("machanae ha-shalom") in Hebrew is used more than the "Israeli peace movement". The term "peace movement" is applied by press to describe a specific group rather the entire groups, parties and activists. MathKnight 08:53, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the explanation. Do you think that it would be possible to create two different pages, perhaps describing what you have just said, as well as giving notable examples? Outsiders looking for information about the Israeli peace movement could be confused by the term "peace camp". It sounds like a summer camp for teens. --Viriditas 01:49, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think a redirect and short explanation in the body of the article will make it clear that we are not talking about a summer camp. MathKnight 10:41, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Let me think about this for a few days. Thanks for your time. --Viriditas 10:21, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

CfD: Category:Advocacy

Please vote on Category:Advocacy. HistoryBuffEr created this category as a duplicate of Category:Activism, and fabricated a negative definition associating Advocacy with propaganda -- a definition that cannot be found in any dictionary. Then, he replaced Category:Activism with his new Category:Advocacy on Hasbara and Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs. Advocacy groups are already categorized under Activism so HistoryBuffEr's new category is essentially a duplicate, and contains a false definition. --Viriditas 10:21, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

CfD: Category:Occupation of Palestine

Please see CfD:Occupation of Palestine. --Viriditas 21:23, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Forum for Encyclopedic Standards

I have drafted a proposal for a new voluntary association on Wikipedia (joining groups like the Wikipedia:The Business and Economics Forum and the Wikipedia:Harmonious editing club) to promote discussion of a sort of system of expert review on Wiki. Please take a look and add your ideas. 172 02:33, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Wonderful idea! I have joined. I will let some others know. Thank you. IZAK 03:16, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Please e-mail me

Hi MathKnight, could you please e-mail me? If you need more directions on how to, please let me know. Jayjg 19:26, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How? MathKnight 19:32, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You can e-mail me at Viritalk at hotmail.com Jayjg 21:40, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Apparently User Yoshia/Josiah has had enough of the attacks and violations of civility, he's started an arbitration. Meanwhile, Alberuni is busy POVing Arab-Israeli conflict. Jayjg 21:25, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

So far, I seriously monitoring Al Aqsa Intifada and Jenin articles, so I have little time to watch this also. MathKnight 21:28, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Did you ever receive my e-mail? Jayjg 20:11, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

CfD

Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:National liberation movements FYI, thanks. IZAK 23:13, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Your Email

Hi MathKnight, would you care to Email me and let me know it's you MathKnight from Wikipedia please. My Email: simshalom at att dot net Thanks a lot. IZAK 07:14, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

RfC

Hello. HistoryBuffEr has filed an RfC against me. I thought I'd let you know, in case you have any interest in commenting. – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 19:21, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

Left and anti-war in Europe

You will definitely want to look in on Talk:Left-wing_politics#Left_and_anti-war_in_Europe. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:23, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

Clarity re Aliyot

Could you provide some clarity about what 'left' means in your Aliyot numbers, i.e. in "Second Aliyah (1904-1914) from Russia. Total 40,000 (about half left)." 'half left' means still living, or left Israel? And if the latter, where did they go - returned to Russia? And during the same time period? I'm curious about the relevance of this.

I don't know since I wasn't the one who wrote that part. I guess that "left" means that the immigrants moved out of the country after short time (mostly to the USA). MathKnight 10:26, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)