Talk:Owain Gwynedd

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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Page name[edit]

I've moved this back from Owain Gwynedd ap Gruffydd, after Seancdaug moved it there, in accordance with the Manual of Style. — OwenBlacker 11:44, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

Owain's coat of arms?[edit]

Does anyone knows what where the arms of Owain Gwynedd? I saw somewhere (I think it was on the Civic Heraldry of England and Wales website) that Owain Gwynedd used three eagles on his arms? Can anyone confirm that? Make a picture? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thomas de Vernet (talk • contribs) 11:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Cadwalad[e]r exiled[edit]

In this article:

In 1155 Cadwaladr was driven into exile.

In Kingdom of Gwynedd article:

Again an accord was reached, with Cadwaladr retaining Aberffraw until a more serious breach occurred in 1153, when he was forced into exile in England, where his wife was the sister of Gilbert de Clare, 2nd Earl of Hertford and the niece of Ranulph de Gernon, 2nd Earl of Chester.[20][21]

At least one of those appears to be wrong! Pbhj (talk) 22:38, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Coat of arms of Owain Gwynedd.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:26, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Prince of the Welsh[edit]

I have added a paragraph about his adoption of the title "prince of the Welsh" now. The source I have added is:

Malone, Patricia (2008). ""Se Principem Nominat:" Rhetorical Self-Fashioning and Epistolary Style in the Letters of Owain Gwynedd" (PDF). Proceedings of the Harvard Celtic Colloquium. 28: 169–184. ISSN 1545-0155. Retrieved 9 June 2023.

This source is an excellent read and we could say more about the title here, but would need to consider what is due. The source is in line with (Turvey, 2013) in its discussion of why he adopted this title, and both note the matter is not certain, but point out that Henry was angered by this. This source also notes that Owain was the first to establish international diplomacy at all, and to self reference using the Anglo-Saxon derived term "Welsh". The discussion suggests, in line with (Turvey, 2002) that the adoption of the term prince was a reaction to how the Welsh were being treated in Anglo-Norman sources that were hostile and contemptuous. This source goes with the view that the term was deliberately chosen in response to this hostility as an ironic response to the prejudices. I am sure we can make more use of this, so leaving the reference here in the hope of more eyes on it, and a considered view as to what we can and should say from it.

Notes

Turvey, R. (2002). The Welsh Princes: The Native Rulers of Wales 1063-1283. Routledge.
Turvey, R. (2013). Owain Gwynedd Prince of the Welsh. Y Lolfa.

Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:01, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lloyd1171, I am happy to leave both prince of Wales and Prince of the Welsh per your edit today, but note that Waliarum Princeps literally means prince of the Waleses (i.e. genitive plural, Waliarum), which, per your source, was no doubt to assert lordship over all the kingdoms, and not a single unified Welsh kingdom/principality. To me, that is "prince of the Welsh" by another name, but it could also be "prince of all Wales", and thus "prince of Wales". Leaving both in is ok by me though. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:04, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]