Talk:Quintus Sertorius

This article is a bit gossipy - could do with some of the facts being clarified (e.g. what happened to Sertorius from 87 to 83? Why exactly did he go to Spain?). The language of optimates/populares needs to be cleaned up - it's very 19th century to think in these terms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.43.45 (talk) 08:58, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Untitled

After having added a lot of patent nonsense and having been reverted and warned, 207.162.58.10 has changed the description of Quintus Sertorius' death. I have reverted that, too—I have not found any corroborating external sources for this version, but lots for the assassination. The only Battle of Ravenna I know of was in 432, not 72 BC. Looks like "stealth vandalism" to me: deliberately adding wrong information in a way that makes it hard to detect because it appears plausible at first glance. Lupo 08:17, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

This article is in places unclear--"He now declared for Marius and the populares party, though of Marius himself as a man he had the worst opinion. He must have been a consenting party to the hideous massacres of Marius and Cinna in 87, though he seems to have done what he could to mitigate their horrors". Perhaps this should be reworked. --24.251.168.56 22:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I amended that. Sertorius supported the Populares, who were led by the consul Cinna, and resented Marius taking part in their siege of Rome, but relented when Cinna said he invited Marius, and Marius did not show up on his own.

"Party Politics"

The article takes as granted, and indeed infers, that the Roman Republic was dominated by two political parties (in the modern style) when, in fact, this idea has been widely discredited. At best they can be considered loose political groupings, but the very nature of Late Republican Roman society was means that any political party, in the modern sense, could never exist. Political alliance was temporary, self centered and ultimately aimed for ones own political ends, as soon as a relationship ceased to meet these ends, it was terminated. Furthermore, the individualism of Roman politics precludes any assertion of a unified set of goals/aims among political allies - Roman society cannot be rendered through the prism of modern political organisation. I move that the article should be rewritten to take into account modern scholarship with relation to Roman politics, or at the very least make it clear that no "party" system existed in the modern sense.Derekpatterson (talk) 08:48, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

True, no actual political parties as we know today existed. However, there were a common group of principles held by ppl mostly depending on their social background. That cannot be denied. The fall of the Republic came about by powerful men utilizing the distinct aims of the Populares and Optimates and their servants. For the sake of clarity, faction could replace the word party, and that way distinguish between the modern institution of political parties, yet still express the common political aims, and social groups that existed back then. Completely disagree w/ your sentence "individualism of Roman politics precludes any assertion of a unified set of goals/aims among political allies" for this time period. Is this a joke or sarcasm? The Jackal God (talk) 13:48, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

The sentence 'individualism of Roman politics precludes any assertion of a unified set of goals/aims' perhaps does suggest that there weren't factions - but it's broadly on the right lines. The language of optimates and populares needs to go. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.43.45 (talk) 09:01, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Hirtuleius

if Quintus Sertorius and Sertorian War are going to share the same article page, it might be a good idea to incorporate something about Sertorius' ablest lieutenant, Hirtuleius, who cleared out, if i'm not mistaken, Hispania Citerior, ousting the Sullan governor as well as defeating Manlius, the governor of Transalpine Gaul who came to his assistance. Quite an asset to Sertorius' cause, Sertorius was not a little sadden upon news of his death, and his death played a major role in Sertorius' diminishing fortunes as the decade waned. The Jackal God 21:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to rename article

I suggest that the article be renamed from 'Quintus Sertorius' to simply 'Sertorius'. It is WP:CONCISE and he is one of the few Romans in history with that surname, and doubtless the most famous of them. His WP:COMMONNAME is often simply given as Sertorius, with the given name omitted, as is the case with Sulla, Julius Caesar, Pompey, Cicero and others. Aforst1 (talk) 22:31, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

First things first, thanks for your invitation. My personal preference when talking about republican Romans is to use two (or more) of their nomen; like Julius Caesar, Mark Antony, Scipio Africanus, Gaius Marius and Aemilius Paulus. This to distinguish them from their many namesakes. Therefore, I would prefer Quintus Sertorius, but having said that I have to admit you have got a point, there are no other famous Quintus Sertoriuses, so Sertorius is quite unique. This would put him in another category; the category of the likes of Cicero, Pompey, Sulla, Lucullus, Crassus etc. So I am torn. Again my personal preference is Quintus Sertorius so I don't see the need to move the page. I think other users will have to weigh in. Is it Sertorius like Pompey or Quintus Sertorius like Gaius Marius?LuciusHistoricus (talk) 19:53, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

I would point out that Wikipedia also has a number of non-canonical figures of Roman history who are referred only by one name, such as Trebonius, Sejanus and, as you've already mentioned, Lucullus, so I guess you could group Sertorius with them. I'll put a notice to alert others to the suggestion, and leave the issue in abeyance in the meantime. Aforst1 (talk) 22:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

We shouldn't move the article. As P Aculeius says in the other discussion, it has been stable since its creation eighteen years ago. Don't fix what isn't broken. LuciusHistoricus (talk) 14:30, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 5 April 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved (non-admin closure) Aforst1 (talk) 14:48, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

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Quintus Sertorius → Sertorius – WP:CONCISE, WP:CRITERIA; nobody else of note with that name Aforst1 (talk) 22:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. As a long-time editor and member of WP:CGR, I prefer that articles on Romans be listed under their tria nomina whenever possible—or in this case, duo nomina. While we have exceptions for a number of very famous individuals, those are mainly the result of long-standing consensus, often involving the participation of the broader WP community, rather than just CGR. This article has been stable at its present title since its creation in 2002. I won't argue that the general isn't by far the most prominent member of his gens—although at least one other attained the praetorship—but even so, insisting that the article be moved when it can easily be reached by anyone searching for it makes our collection of Roman biographical articles less consistent, more of a hodgepodge, and benefits no-one. P Aculeius (talk) 13:52, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Agreed! We shouldn't move the article. As P Aculeius says, it has been stable since its creation eighteen years ago. Don't fix what isn't broken. It's Quintus Sertorius like Gaius Marius! LuciusHistoricus (talk) 14:26, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per P Aculeius ~ HAL333 18:19, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.