Talk:People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran

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This article has been mentioned by a media organization-BRD[edit]

I added In the War for Narratives Iran’s Regime Takes to Wikipedia by National Council of Resistance of Iran to this talkpage-template, and was reverted on that, "this is not a media organization, but a self-published post by the National Council of Resistance of Iran (an organization with at least one member banned by WMF T&S"

Reasonable people can disagree on what counts as "media organization" in this context, I thought it was close enough, though I tend to be a bit inclusionist on these things. I think of a political org's official website as a media org, in general. Not that it comes up in this context very often, most of it will be some kind of "news". Fwiw, the website has "News". If you have an opinion, please share. However, "an organization with at least one member banned by WMF T&S" doesn't matter in this context, but it's interesting info. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:47, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess that's fair. MarioGom (talk) 11:15, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: As you note, it's a political party's blog. While it might contain media, that does not make it a "media site" by any standard definition of the term. WP:PRESS and the press template are strictly for press sources. Wikipedia:Wikipedia in blogs is the place for blog mentions. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:46, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The site has a blog-section, but afaict, the article in question is not there. Some political parties used to publish their own newspapers and magazines (maybe some still do), I don't consider this very different. But that's my view. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Characterization as a cult[edit]

Hogo-2020: You reverted [1] my change changing the title of the section "Cult of personality" to "Characterization as a cult". Your rationale was While some sources use this term for the MEK, others don't. It is irrelevant that some sources do not describe it as a cult. Some do, and in-text attribution is used to note it. The section is not about "cult of personality". The content and the backing sources are way more broad and discuss the extent to which the organization can (or cannot) be characterized as a cult. It is simply incorrect to name this section "cult of personality". It does not match the content. It does not match the sources. MarioGom (talk) 18:00, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh God, the topic's back. Yes, it's described as a cult, but not a cult of personality. It wasn't one of these things where everyone hung the pictures of the leaders on the walls. Characterization is a more usefully descriptive/functional subtitle. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:48, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello MarioGom. I reverted your edit (didn't change the title as you say) because it was a deeply biased change. It is not irrelevant that other sources use the term "Cult of Personality". All reliable sources need to be considered, and if that's what's missing in that section, then perhaps we should be discussing that instead. I take it from the above comment that this has been previously addressed. If you're adamant about this change, we should look at those discussions as well as sources and determine what new information would support such a change. Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hogo-2020: Do you realize that the section is not about "cult of personality"? Neither the content or the sources are about that. It just does not make any sense. Which title would you propose for this section? MarioGom (talk) 19:41, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also note that you are free to propose any other changes to the content, but trying to keep a title unrelated to the content is the kind of filibusterism that has plagued the 62 pages of archives already . MarioGom (talk) 19:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello MarioGom, as already said, this looks like a deeply biased change because you're overlooking a major part of the literature. I will survey sources (also in the archives) and start a list here. Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how the title is biased at all. The title is not "Cult", "Cult characteristics", or "This is a cult". "Characterization as a cult" is a fairly neutral heading for a section that discusses the sources that describe it as a cult, a politico-religious sect, etc. Some of these sources are as reliable as they can get, such as Ervand Abrahamian. But in any case, the heading "Characterization as a cult" does not preclude adding reliable sources that try to refute the others or represent a different viewpoint on the topic. MarioGom (talk) 11:11, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please say which sources use the title "Characterization as a cult" (or similar)? Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's a summary of the content. What would be your preferred title? MarioGom (talk) 07:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How did you arrive at that summary? through which sources? Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please, just see the content of the section. These sources state that the organization has characteristics of a cult, with different aspects being discussed. How would you call a well-sourced section that discusses the extent to which an organization is a cult or displays some characteristics of a cult? The exact title does not need to be in the sources, just like "History" or "Controversies" do not need to explictly come from the sources, as long as the sources discuss history and controversies. So, again, what would be your preferred title for this section? MarioGom (talk) 08:20, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I got your overall point: you think my proposed title is "deeply biased" and it's unlikely I can persuade you. That's why I wonder what would be your proposal, or if you think the current title is just correct. Given the track record of this page, this would likely need an RFC, but it would be unfair if it did not represent all options. MarioGom (talk) 08:27, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm as confused as Mario about what you think is "deeply biased" here. I can't see any bias, and you haven't explained any bias. I see one, arguably inaccurate descriptive subhead that has been exchanged for a related, but less specific and objectionable descriptive subhead. I don't see where bias comes into it at all. All labels of "cult" are characterisations, and there "Characterisations as a cult" is a perfectly reasonable subhead. Your objections, on the other hand, are as yet entirely unexplained. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:47, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello MarioGom. This list of books use "Cult of personality".
  • Iran today : an encyclopedia of life in the Islamic Republic. Authors: Mehran Kamrava (Editor), Manochehr Dorraj (Editor). Publisher: Greenwood Press, Westport, Conn., 2008. Page 338.
  • Terrornomics. Authors: Sean S. Costigan, David GoldPublished March 16, 2016. Publisher: Routledge. Page 68.
  • Deadly connections states that sponsor terrorism. Authors: Daniel Byman. Publisher: Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 2005 Page 37.
  • Conflict in the modern Middle East : an encyclopedia of civil war, revolutions, and regime change. Author:Jonathan K. Zartman (Editor). Publisher: ABC-CLIO, 2020. Page 209.
  • The Iranian Mojahedin. Author: Ervand Abrahamian. Publisher: Yale University Press, New Haven, 1989. Page 255.
  • The Thousand and One Borders of Iran Travel and Identity. Author: Fariba Adelkhah. Publisher: Routledge, 2015. Page 270.
  • Iran Agenda The Real Story of U.S. Policy and the Middle East Crisis. Authors: Reese Erlich, Robert Scheer. Publisher: Routledge, 2016. Page 99.
  • Terrorist Argument. Author: Christopher C. Harmon. Publisher: Brookings Institution Press, 2018. Page 170.
My proposal is to have the section consider books like these. Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:23, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And the reason why I asked you where you got this title from is because I saw in the archives that it was proposed about 4 years ago by two editors that appear to be now banned from this topic, SharabSalam and Mhhossein. How did you arrive at the same verbatim biased title as they did? Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adding further sources, including discussion of "cult of personality" practices is still compatible with a title "characterization as a cult". On the other hand, a title "cult of personality" is not appropriate for a section that discusses broader "cult-like" practices, not limited to cult of personality. You are welcome to expand the section with further reliable sources, but expanding it with cult of personality practices does not really change my point about the title. In fact, some of the sources you bring up discuss cult practices beyond cult of personality, like Abrahamian. About your later question of previous discussions: yes, I have read many previous discussions over the years, and I'll never claim all my proposals are novel (as neither are yours), there's nothing wrong with that. MarioGom (talk) 13:01, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello MarioGom. Your answer is rather compelling. I previously asked you how you had arrived at the title "Characterization as a cult", and you said you had not used sources but had read and summarized the content of the section: "It's a summary of the content", "just see the content of the section", "The exact title does not need to be in the sources". However the same verbatim title change proposal was made 4 years ago by two editors that are now banned and who used an unreliable source as the basis for the title change. Where things get compelling is that you never said you were reviving this proposal from 4 years ago, you said you had come up with this proposal by looking at the current content of the section. So how can both proposals (yours, and the one from 4 years ago by two banned editors using an unreliable source) be identical? Hogo-2020 (talk) 09:53, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you think I'm not acting in good faith, please, report this to an appropriate venue. Otherwise, would you engage assuming good faith in this discussion? I made the case for this proposal at great length here, and asked you some questions to try to build consensus (whether you think the current title is ok or not, whether you have another proposal, or what would you think would be appropriate options for an RFC), but you did not answer any so far. I'm not going to engage in de-railing this thread with a long exchange on this innuendo about whatever some other editor said 4 years ago. MarioGom (talk) 11:28, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello MarioGom, I'm also interested in the content (I did answer about your proposal using sources, and I'm currently gathering additional sources that I will provide here soon). I'm also not interested in escalating this, but could you just please clear this up? Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:58, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I answered already [2]. I'm not going to write a longer essay here about this. It's not relevant for this discussion. MarioGom (talk) 08:08, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you really want to go deeper on this meta discussion on my behaviour, my talk page is open. I think this thread should continue with the substance, and avoid shifting to meta-discussions that do not serve consensus building. MarioGom (talk) 09:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello MarioGom, I have looked at sources in the article, archives, and Google Books. Here is the draft list I've put together so far. I'm looking for additional sources, do you have any? Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hogo-2020: I have been compiling some sources in a sandbox. It is quite early work. I am also drafting a rewrite of the section, although I expect my title proposal to stand both with the current content or my proposed content.
To ensure our efforts are directed towards some possible resolution, would you mind clarifying if the current title ("Cult of personality") is your preferred choice based on your current understanding of the sources? Otherwise, do you have any other option in mind? MarioGom (talk) 12:42, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That being said, I think there's a misconception in your draft. "Cult" and "cult of personality" are not mutually exclusive. Some discuss "cult of personality" without labeling as "cult", while others discuss "cult of personality" as part of an explicit labeling as a cult. This is the case of Ervand Abrahamian, who you classify as "absolutely cult of personality", but he is the scholar describing the MEK most unambiguously as a cult (and yes, also discussing the cult of personality aspects). This can be seen in the following passages:
  • Abrahamian, Ervand (1989). Radical Islam: The Iranian Mojahedin. I.B. Tauris. p. 255. ISBN 978-1-85043-077-3. In short, the Mojahedin had metamorphized from a mass movement into an inward-looking sect in many ways similar to religious cults found the world over.
  • Abrahamian, Ervand (2013). Cronin, Stephanie (ed.). Reformers and Revolutionaries in Modern Iran: New Perspectives on the Iranian Left. Routledge. p. 274. ISBN 978-1-134-32890-1. The Sazman-e Mojahedin-e Khalq [...] declared that the revolution had been betrayed, took up arms against the Islamic Republic, and, setting up bases outside the country, turned into a cult resembling medieval Shi'i sects. Its leader elevated himself into an infallible imam with the power to determine policy and reinterpret thirteen centuries of Islam.
As well as other works, including the following interview:
where he stated they stopped being a mass movement with Marxist roots and became basically a cult MarioGom (talk) 12:52, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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