Talk:Orestes

Comments

I'd hesitate to cut out so much from this article w/o putting it up for some kind of discussion. But I think that four paragraphs from the turn of the century Britannica:

The legend of Orestes is the subject of a lengthy monograph by T. Zielinski, Die Orestessage tind die Rechtfertigungsidee in Neue Jahrbiicher für des klassische Altertum, ii. (1899). Orestes, according to Zielinski, is the son of the sky-god Zeus/Agamemnon (the two are identified as the same symbolic being) who overcomes his wife, the earth-goddess Gaia/Clytemnestra (also identified with each other). With the assistance of the dragon Aegisthus (who is only symbolically a dragon), Gaia/Clytemnestra slays her husband, whose murder is in turn avenged by his son.

The religion of Zeus/Agamemnon (as in, Agamemnon's royal lineage) is then reformed under the influence of the cult of Apollo, who slays the dragon (Python) birthed by Gaia on Parnassus, the seat of one of her oldest sanctuaries. Parnassus becomes the holy mountain of Apollo, and Orestes himself an hypostasis (identified with) of Apollo "of the mountain," just as Pylades is Apollo "of the plain"; similarly Electra, Iphigeneia and Chrysothemis are hypostases of Artemis. Zeus being firmly seated on his throne as the result of the slaying of the dragon by Orestes, the theological significance of the myth is forgotten, and the identifications Zeus-Agamemnon and Gaia-Clytaemnestra are abandoned.

In the Homeric Oresteia the soul of the murdered wife has no claim to vengeance, and Orestes retires unmolested in Argos. But the Apolline religion introduces the theory of the rights of the soul and revenge for bloodshed. Apollo, who has urged Orestes to parricide and has himself expiated the crime of slaying the dragon, is able to purify others in similar cases. Hence Orestes, freed from the guilt of blood, is enabled to take possession of the throne of his father. This is the Deiphic Oresteia. But a new idea is introduced by the Attic Oresteia. The claim that Apollo can in every case purify from sin is met by Athens with a counterclaim on behalf of the state. It is the community of which murdered and murderer were members which has the right to exact revenge and retribution, an idea which found expression in the foundation of the Areopagus. If the accused is acquitted, the state undertakes to appease the soul of the murdered person or its judicial representative, the Erinyes.

Others attach chief importance to the slaying of Neoptolemus (Pyrrhus) by Orestes at Delphi; according to Radermacher (Das Jenseits im Mythos der Hellenen, 1903), Orestes is an hypostasis of Apollo, Pyrrhus the principle of evil, which is overcome by the god; on the other hand Usener (Archiv für Religionswissenschaft, vii., 1899, 334) takes Orestes for a god of winter and the underworld, a double of the Phocian Dionysus the "mountain" god (among the Ionians a summer-god, but in this case corresponding to Dionysus), who subdues Pyrrhus ?the light,? the double of Apollo, the whole being a form of the well-known myths of the expulsion of summer by winter. S. Reinach (reviewing P. Mazan?s L?Orestie d?Eschyle, 1902) defends the theory of Bachofen, who finds in the legend of Orestes an indication of the decay of matriarchal ideas.

--- all of this stuff is more Aryan race mythology from the turn of the century. My understanding is that just about all anthropologists and archaeologists no longer believe in a race of superhuman, patriarchal conquerors who destroyed a peaceful, goddess worshipping civilization, and replaced its female god with a male god; whether you want to root for the winners or the losers, it just didn't happen. This was romantic turn of the century mythmaking, and it's not surprising that this stuff was in a turn of the century encyclopedia, but it no longer is believed, at least by scholars.

The bit about Orestes symbolizing the replacement of private vengeance by rule of law might be worth saving, but a new bridge text might be needed that doesn't talk about Aryan sky gods and non-Aryan earth goddesses. -- IHCOYC 18:53 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

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This article is confusing and contradictory. Someone please clean it up! Mat334 20:22, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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Just wanted to say this is a great article. In particular, this paragraph:

"Orestes appears also as a central figure in various legends connected with his madness and purification, both in Greece and Asia. In these Orestes is the guilt-laden mortal who is purified from his sin by the grace of the gods, whose merciful justice is shown to all persons whose crime is mitigated by extenuating circumstances. These legends belong to an age when higher ideas of law and of social duty were being established; the implacable blood-feud of primitive society gives place to a fair trial, and in Athens, when the votes of the judges are evenly divided, mercy prevails."

answers a question I've been wondering about for some time and had never found an answer to. Specifically, in her respected book "Mythology", Edith Hamilton writes that Athena's vote in the trial was triggered by both mercy and respect for Orestes' penance. When I went back and read Aeschylus and Euripides, their texts gave much more superficial reasons for Athena's vote (principally, because Orestes was male and Athena felt it was the natural order to vote for him). I could never reconcile this with Hamilton's interpretation, but the above article paragraph explains it quite well, suggesting that Hamilton was taking the broader context of the myth into account when describing it. Enlightening for me, anyway.

restructure

Hope this [1] makes sense. The first sentence could probably use some work and the last section is a bit dodgy, but I think its looking better. John 00:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

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I made some minor edits, but I didn't want to do very much because, not being familiar with the story, I wasn't sure how to resolve certain ambiguities. Also this is my first day on wikipedia and I don't want to look like an idiot :-) In "other literature", where it says "whose merciful justice", I assume we are talking about the gods, but then when we see "whose crime is" it seems like gramatically it should refer to the gods but actually does not. Anyone who knows care to rewrite that sentence? --Nick Urban 09:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry too much about looking "like an idiot." There are many out there in front of you that will make it difficult for you to look that bad. But most importantly, Be bold!. Welcome. John (Jwy) 17:10, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

This is a very good article and it gives some insight to what happened, but it was very jumpy. You skipped over a lot of important things that happened in the story. And some of the things that you said happened a little differntly but it could also be the trasnlation text that you read it from. Though overall it was not too bad. I didn't want to make any changes to it beacause I did not write the article but I would go back a brush up on some of the things that you have wriiten. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.194.229.129 (talk) 00:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Etymology is incorrect

Orestes isn't derived from oreibates. They are both derived from oros "mountain." Orestes simply means "of or from the mountains." A mountaineer (in the sense of "mountain-climber") is something else altogether. Ifnkovhg (talk) 05:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I have edited the section accordingly, and requested a reference for the metaphoric meaning. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 07:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

incorrect synopsis of Homer's account

In the Odyssey Homer doesn't say that Clytemnestra killed Agamemnon because he had sacrificed their daughter to the gods. Homer says that Agamemnon was killed by his cousin Aegisthus who had seduced Clytemnestra while he was off fighting. I think whoever wrote this is confusing Homer's version of the story with that of other myths. Foscolo (talk) 03:17, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Someone needs to go through this article and remove all of the remaining Murrayite nonsense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.103.151.61 (talk) 00:10, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

• I choose you, Mr. 99.103.151.61! Protonk (talk) 01:06, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Iphigenia

If i remeber correctly, Iphegneia (or however you want to spell it) was killed by Agamemnon in sacrifice for favorable winds to sail his fleet to Troy. How is she able to save Orestes if she was killed. If i missed something please let me know, but Agamemnon kills her before leaving for Troy. He is murdered after returning. Orestes kills his wife and lover in revenge and gets tortured by fureis. Then he is sent to get a statue. Right? So Iphegenia is dead and still is a priestess? Thoth19 (talk) 20:36, 10 October 2010 (UTC)Thoth19

According to Euripides, Iphigenia was not killed but was taken by Artemis to Tauris. Alagos (talk) 13:50, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Comments and questions

1. When did patriarchy replaced matriarchy in Ancient Greece?

2. "He was said to have died of a snakebite in Arcadia."

Orestes or Alete? It's not clear.

3. "There is extant a Latin epic poem, consisting of about 1000 hexameters"

I think this sentence should start with "There is an extant Latin epic poem". I'm not 100% sure.

4. "According to some sources, Orestes fathered Penthilus by his half-sister, Erigone."

What is the source for this claim?

ICE77 (talk) 06:41, 5 June 2011 (UTC)