Talk:Teetotalism

Any reason why Donald Trump isn't on the list?

There's at least 3 sources in the References section saying Trump is a teetotaler. Dcgh96 (talk) 04:07, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

He has been on the list previously and was removed, because although there are sources saying that he is teetotal, it is possible to assemble as many respectable references to say that he isn't really. Sbishop (talk) 08:11, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd argue that the advocacy and frequent mentions of absenteeism is enough, and the few sources that point otherwise should be noted, but shouldn't exclude him from the list. App1nator (talk) 02:35, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

At present, the article has a list of Notable Advocates, with the caveat that "This is a list of notable figures who practiced teetotalism and were public advocates for temperance, teetotalism, or both. To be included in this list, individuals must be well-known for their abstention from alcohol, their advocacy efforts, or both. Individuals whose abstention from alcohol is not a defining characteristic or feature of their notability are intentionally excluded." (Emphasis in the original.) That said, Donald Trump does not meet the present criteria for inclusion on this article's list. Please consult the Notable Teetotalers List discussion below and this discussion from 2018 for the rationale. Msoul13 (talk) 15:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Notable Teetotalers List

This dynamic list was deleted by Nikkimaria as per this discussion from 2018. The rationale from that earlier discussion is sound, but how would other Wikipedians feel about a new version of the list that included only those teetotallers who were temperance activists, advocated against alcohol consumption, are straight edge, etc.? Msoul13 (talk) 14:42, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

A list of temperance activists would be better placed in an article related to the temperance movement. How would you define "etc"? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:57, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

By "etc.," I meant any notable lifestyle that is not affiliated with a religion but in which individuals abstain from alcohol. Msoul13 (talk) 15:02, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

How would you define notable lifestyle? Nikkimaria (talk) 15:41, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Any lifestyle that is practiced by a subculture or a demographic that meets Wikipedia's guidelines for notability. But do you have something else in mind? Msoul13 (talk) 20:16, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

My concern is that the potential breadth of that inclusion brings us back to the issues raised in 2018. Interpreted broadly it would include wide swathes of people who are not individually known for being teetotalers - those for whom it is not a defining characteristic or a feature of their notability. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:00, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense. What about a list of "notable advocates of teetotalism?" Msoul13 (talk) 18:12, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

What's the difference between that and a temperance activist? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:50, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

According to the Wikipedia articles on these topics, an advocate of teetotalism advocates for "total personal abstinence" from alcohol. A temperance movement activist "[promotes] temperance OR complete abstinence" (emphasis added). The temperance movement, which is most strongly associated with the 19th and early 20th centuries, advocated for alcohol education as well as for legal restrictions on the sale and distribution of alcohol.

Moreover, the word temperance itself "is defined as moderation or voluntary self-restraint" and is applicable to many different actions or situtations, not just in regard to abstention from alcohol. Msoul13 (talk) 15:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Okay, so essentially the proposed list would be a sublist of a list of temperance activists? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:02, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

In the temperance movement, some organizations advocated abstinence from distilled liquors while others advocated for total abstinence from all alcoholic beverages (teetotalism). As such, all teetotalism advocates would be temperance activists, but not all temperance activists are teetotalism advocates. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 16:19, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

That is very helpful, Anupam. Thank you! I think two different lists, one on the teetotalism page and one on the temperance movement page, would be appropriate. Msoul13 (talk) 18:13, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm happy that this was helpful! I should note that teetotalism activists can be included among the list for temperance activists (especially since the majority of temperance organizations came to assume a stance largely of teetotalism), though there will be some temperance activists who are not teetotalers. This also could be included in a combined List of temperance and teetotal activists, which could have the headings of various organizations, etc., such as the IOGT, IOR, etc. Anupam^Talk 19:08, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I came to this article from a Wikilink promising a “list of teetotalers” I guess I’ll just look at older versions to find it. Morganfitzp (talk) 11:20, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

What article did you find the Wikilink on? Msoul13 (talk) 20:00, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I have added a preliminary list of "Notable teetotalers in history" to the article that includes only those notable historical figures who were teetotalers and also advocates for temperance and/or teetotalism. Msoul13 (talk) 23:00, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

The name of this section has been updated to "Notable advocates." Msoul13 (talk) 13:33, 19 April 2024 (UTC)