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Pages recently put under extended confirmed protection (30 out of 7830 total) () WATCH Page Protected Expiry Type Summary Admin Module:Citation mode 2024-06-13 18:00 indefinite edit,move High-risk template or module: 2734 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II Template:Broken anchor 2024-06-13 18:00 indefinite edit,move High-risk template or module: 2616 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II Maram Susli 2024-06-13 17:54 2024-06-20 17:54 edit,move Persistent violations of the biographies of living persons policy from (auto)confirmed accounts; requested at WP:RfPP Firefangledfeathers Category:Wikipedia requested photographs of 2024-06-13 15:57 indefinite create there have now been at least two instances of vandals somehow getting to this page and "creating" a category that was really a misplaced article Bearcat Kumayl Alloo 2024-06-13 08:45 indefinite create Contentious topic restriction: WP:BLPCT / confirmed sockpuppetry by autoconfirmed accounts ToBeFree Kumayl Alloo 2024-06-13 08:33 2025-06-13 08:33 edit,move Contentious topic restriction: WP:BLPCT / confirmed sockpuppetry by autoconfirmed accounts ToBeFree Ansariya ambush 2024-06-12 19:26 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: WP:PIA, WP:ECR El C Hunter Biden 2024-06-12 19:23 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement: WP:AP2 flashpoint El C Draft:Naraz 2024-06-12 16:25 2024-09-12 16:25 move preventing eager new user from moving this draft back to another namespace (again) without page review BusterD Steps (pop group) 2024-06-12 15:50 2024-06-26 15:50 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; clear socking, coordination among accounts, and louting; all gaming the system activities BusterD Steps discography 2024-06-12 15:49 2024-06-26 15:49 edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; clear socking, coordination among accounts, and louting; all gaming the system activities BusterD Stun Siva 2024-06-11 21:27 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated: WP:UPE target - approved draft required Ponyo Keffiyeh 2024-06-11 19:38 2025-06-11 19:38 edit,move Contentious topics enforcement for WP:CT/A-I; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan Hari Singh Nalwa 2024-06-11 18:20 indefinite edit,move Continued disruptive despite semi-protection; WP:ARBIPA Abecedare Kuki war of independence 2024-06-11 17:38 indefinite edit,move Persistent sock puppetry; see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Thakor_Sumant_Sinhji_Jhala Abecedare Koli war of independence 2024-06-11 17:37 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated; see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Thakor_Sumant_Sinhji_Jhala Abecedare Naraz 2024-06-11 14:19 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated; no objection for this subject to be created view draft if properly reviewed at NPP ; requested at WP:RfPP BusterD Colombia 2024-06-11 05:19 indefinite edit Edit warring / content dispute Daniel Case Kelly A. Hyman 2024-06-11 04:34 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated Daniel Case White Mexicans 2024-06-11 04:06 2024-09-11 04:06 edit,move Edit warring / content dispute: per RFPP Daniel Case Nano-ayurvedic medicine 2024-06-10 21:22 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated: per AfD discussion Vanamonde93 Tribal revolts in India before Indian independence 2024-06-10 19:19 2024-09-10 19:19 edit,move Sock puppetry; Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Thakor Sumant Sinhji Jhala + others Abecedare Rebellions 2024-06-10 19:16 2024-09-10 19:16 edit,move Sock puppetry (LTA); see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Thakor Sumant Sinhji Jhala Abecedare Principality of Sealand 2024-06-10 18:03 indefinite move Edit warring / content dispute DrKay List of peace activists 2024-06-10 15:12 2025-06-10 15:12 edit Arbitration enforcement ScottishFinnishRadish False or misleading statements by Donald Trump 2024-06-10 02:11 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement Modern American politics. Will log at WP:AEL Ad Orientem Carly Rae Jepsen 2024-06-10 00:56 2025-06-10 00:56 edit,move Persistent disruptive editing Discospinster Al-Sitt 2024-06-09 21:36 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated; requested at WP:RfPP Elli Hamis Kiggundu 2024-06-09 21:15 2025-06-09 21:15 edit,move Persistent sockpuppetry: per RFPP Daniel Case Aditi Rao Hydari 2024-06-09 20:37 indefinite edit Violations of the biographies of living persons policy: per RFPP; will also log as CTOPS action Daniel Case

Partial Unblock Request (Greghenderson2006)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

After placing a request to be unblocked on my user page, I was instructed by User:331dot to start a community discussion by going to WP:AN and request its removal.

• I acknowledge my past involvement in problematic COI editing.
• I now believe in regaining trust and commit to ceasing any further problematic COI editing.
• Since my partial block, I have authored 20 new articles, all of which have been reviewed and accepted by my peers for inclusion in the main article space.
• I have also contributed to 28 articles through the Edit Request process since my block.
• Upon unblocking, my intention is to contribute to Wikipedia by assisting with the backlog of AfC and edit requests.
• My dedication lies in making Wikipedia the best encyclopedia globally.

Greg Henderson (talk) 16:56, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy link to pblock discussion. Schazjmd (talk) 17:26, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

@Greghenderson2006, you specify problematic COI editing: what type of COI editing do you consider to not be problematic? Schazjmd (talk) 17:36, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Schazjmd, any COI editing would be problematic per WP:COI. This request is based on my recent pldege to refrain from any further COI editing, as well as on the recent articles and upates I have made. Greg Henderson (talk) 17:56, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• Greg, didn't you make essentially the same promise six months back and then break it? Abecedare (talk) 17:49, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, I made a mistake and I am fully committed to upholding my pledge this time. I have taken this expereince as a learning opputnity and am determined to demonstrate conistency moving forward. The recent articles I have written provide evidence of my committemnt. Greg Henderson (talk) 18:00, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

  That's what you said last time too! And you have had the following COI related declaration and commitment on your userpage for a long time:

  I have a conflict of interest and paid-contribution disclosures in some of my Wikipedia articles. I intend to follow best practices by asking for help, sticking to neutral language, and having other editors review my work.

  If those previous commitments weren't upheld, I am not sure why we should just take your word for it this time instead of sustaining the pblock to ensure that all your edits to articlespace are in fact reviewed. Abecedare (talk) 18:22, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

  I understand your concern given the past commitments that were not fully upheld. However, I am asking for another chance now to prove my dedication to Wikipedia's standards. I am committed to making contributions and am open to having my edits monitored. Please allow me this opportunity to demonstrate my commitment and rebuild your trust. Greg Henderson (talk) 22:51, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

As proposer of the p-block being discussed here, I will take no position as to this request. I will just say that I share @Abecedare's concerns about prior broken promises. You note that Since my partial block, I have authored 20 new articles, all of which have been reviewed and accepted by my peers for inclusion in the main article space. but this been declined as has this one. Why do you feel that's the case? Why didn't you note them above? Star Mississippi 03:22, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

The Draft:Coyote station has been resubmitted after adjusting the lead to better align with the citations. I believe a block is unwarranted, as the text in the first draft was not fully aligned with the referenced source at the time. Additionally, the Draft:Lewis Josselyn draft has been resubmitted after addressing notability issues. I feel confident that I have not broken any promises in this process. Greg Henderson (talk) 22:47, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I confess I'm bewildered by the statement I believe a block is unwarranted, as the text in the first draft was not fully aligned with the referenced source at the time. "the text in the first draft was not fully aligned with the referenced source at the time" is a euphemism that means "the sources did not support the information in the article". How is that a reason for the block being unwarrranted? Including claims that weren't supported by the cited sources was one of the reasons for the block! --bonadea contributions talk 09:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I've written 20 articles on the aforementioned sites, which have been accepted by my peers. However, there have been instances where some articles, like Draft:Coyote Station, that were declined. I always correct the issues and resubmitted them. This part of any review process. It's important to note that the rejection of certain drafts for specific reasons shouldn't be grounds for blocking someone who is helping to expand the scope of Wikipedia. I have authored over 400 articles and enjoy the research/writing aspect. This block should be lifted because I no longer have any conflict of interest with articles I have written or edited since my block. Greg Henderson (talk) 20:48, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

• I am opposed to any unblock. I agree with the concerns raised above by Abecedare; a significant part of Greg's undertaking above is word for word the same as the last time, and the rest of it is substantially the same in character. Not only has Greg previously made the same promise and broken it, but he also has an extensive history of making misleading statements and equivocations, many of which it is difficult to believe were not disingenuous. We have had "I haven't done X", and then, when someone points out a clear case of his doing X, "Oh, when I said I haven't done X, I meant I haven't done Y". We have had statements along the lines of "I made a mistake" for things which are difficult to see as mistakes. We have had "I have authored 20 new articles, all of which have been reviewed and accepted by my peers for inclusion in the main article space", without mentioning the number of drafts which have not been accepted; of course all the articles created at AfC have been accepted, as otherwise they wouldn't be articles, but did Greg honestly not intend to give the impression that all of the drafts he had created had been accepted as articles? And so it goes on... all documented in his talk page history, at AN/I, etc. To be absolutely blunt, I think Greg's history has shown time and time again that his word cannot be trusted, and I see no reason to assume that it will be any different this time. He has cried "Wolf" too often. JBW (talk) 09:19, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
• I'm opposed. I believe in third chances, but the period after the second chance should be measured in years, not months. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:56, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

  I understand your perspective and I am sorry you feel this way. I believe I have demonstrated my ability to write and edit articles effectively. The block has been difficult for me, and I feel it hinders my potential to contribute positively. Please see the articles I have written since I have been blocked, e.g. Olvida Peñas, Kirk Creek Campground, and Rhoades Ranch. If Wikipedia aims to foster a collaborative environment, please reconsidering such punitive measures for individuals who have shown they can contribute. I encourage you to reconsider this block and provide another opportunity for me to prove my commitment to this community. Greg Henderson (talk) 22:32, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

• I'm afraid there may be another issue as well – I just declined a draft from Greghenderson2006 which has some very close paraphrasing of at least one source. See my comment on the draft. I thought I'd do a spot check of earlier page creations, and the first one I looked at was Messina Orchard (accepted in AfC in March) where the "Design" sub-section is copied with very minor changes from pages 5 and 7 of this source. No shade falls on the AfC reviewer, because this kind of thing can be hard to spot if you are not looking for it. I don't know if Greghenderson2006 has had previous cautions/warnings about close paraphrasing, but it's definitely something he needs to start paying attention to, as well. --bonadea contributions talk 20:27, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  I checked the drafts using Earwig's Copyvio Detector tool. They fall within 10-20%, which means vilolation is unlikely. Greg Henderson (talk) 20:35, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  Earwig's tool doesn't detect close paraphrasing! I don't understand why anybody would use that tool on their own texts at all, to be honest. It seems like using it has tricked you into thinking that it's fine to simply change some words from a source while keeping the order of information, structure and other aspects of the text in the sources. It may or may not be a copyvio problem (my sense is that it is, certainly in the draft I linked above) but it is definitely plagiarism. Do yourself a favour and read WP:CLOSEPARAPHRASING carefully, and keep in mind that edits like this one do not do anything to resolve an issue with plagiarism or with copyright. --bonadea contributions talk 09:09, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

  I don't know if Greghenderson2006 has had previous cautions/warnings about close paraphrasing, but it's definitely something he needs to start paying attention to, as well. CV is among the issues Greg has challenges with including leading up to the p-block: User_talk:Greghenderson2006/Archive_19 Star Mississippi 00:51, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

  I will take no position on the unblock request, but will say that I don't think we have even scratched the surface of the close paraphrasing issue in most (if not all) of the many drafts Greg has been creating. See Talk:Pomeroy Green for my concerns about just one of these articles, where the initial comments (made after this discussion) suggest a continued lack of understanding of the issue. Melcous (talk) 02:17, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

• I'm quite unfamiliar with the full background behind Greg's block, but I think he should be allowed to make minor changes to articles without edit requests, as seen in Talk:Joseph Eichler. The are 33 pending requests in the partial block queue, the majority of which appear to be minor and uncontroversial. NotAGenious (talk) 14:00, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

  I think editing might be a good idea, but after having read the background behind the previous problems brought to AN/I, I would be staunchly opposed to any creation of pages without heavy review. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 02:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Per Wikipedia:Blocking policy, "A user may be unblocked earlier if the user agrees to desist and appears to have learned from the matter." I agree to desist and have learned from my WP:PBLOCK. Since my block I have created 23 articles that have been peer-reviewed and edited, via edit requests, 31 articles. There are 10 drafts waiting for review. I have created 437 article pages since my first edit in 2007. My appeal to a partial block should be granted based on the proportionality of the infraction, mitigating circumstances, my commitment to compliance, and my history of positive contributions. Greg Henderson (talk) 18:56, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

  @Greghenderson2006 you have shown every indication why you believe you should be unblocked, but none to indicate that you've learned from any of the prior blocks or the declines of your drafts or how the project will benefit from you being unblocked. Using AfC is not a barrier to improving the encyclopedia and with your repeat copyright issues I strongly feel you should not be reviewing others' drafts. Also, AfC is not peer review. Star Mississippi 02:21, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

  Not true! I have learned from my prior blocks. Look at the success I've made. Try to understand that I am volunteering my time to write these articles and they have been reviewed by peer Wikipedians. Please try to understand that this is a simple unblock request for a seasoned editor that has written over 400 articles! I am making a valuable contribution to Wikipeida that has sbeen upported and congratulated over-and-over again by other editors. Not sure why you want to continue to block someone that has contributed so much. Greg Henderson (talk) 02:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose unblock: Besides the aforementioned issues, there are problems with basic factual accuracy. Greg submitted Sargent station to AfC with easily falsified claims about when the station was closed, despite that I explained that in detail when he asked me for feedback. That submission had a number of other basic issues: an adjacent stations template for a service that never stopped there, an irrelevant "see also" link, navboxes unrelated to the article content, an empty authority control box, and an incorrect category (Repurposed railway stations in the United States). I see similar issues at Draft:Coyote station, including citations simply being placed at the end of the paragraph rather than with the information they support. While these would all be forgivable for new editors, they show an alarming lack of attention for someone with 22k edits. Greg's associated editing on Commons and Wikidata shows similar basic issues such as creating a Wikidata item with a completely false description, uploading an image with an incorrect public domain claim, and creating a Commons category without bothering to properly categorize it. All of this represents substantial work for other editors to clean up, and unblocking would simply create more. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 19:11, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

  I think you are being to harsh. The wikidata if fine Coyote station and has a description: "former train station in Coyote, California, US." The Commons Category is also fine: Commons Category here. I've contacted the holder of the image and they have released the image with a copyright date of 1912, that is in public domain. This is article represents a historical train station, which was one of the 1st in the county. Please look at the fact that the article was created with citations to support the move to Coyote, California to to History Park at Kelley Park in San José, California. This is no reason to block a senior editor. Greg Henderson (talk) 01:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Between the persistent recurring verification failures and use of non reliable sources and "using wrong sources" that just doesn't seem to correspond to reasonable normal errors and many of your responses here giving high 90s% on GPTZero.me makes me wonder. Graywalls (talk) 02:53, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

  I apologize for any verfication failures or use of unreliable soures. In every article I write I check for these things but sometimes erros fall through the cracks. If you look at these articles I have written in the last three months they have no tags or erros.

  1. Olvida Peñas
  2. Kirk Creek Campground
  3. Rhoades Ranch
  4. Messina Orchard
  5. Fairglen Additions

  This list of contributions goes on. However, I admit that I can improve and have requested the lift of the block to allow me to edit pages more freely, without having to go through an edit request each time I want to make even a minor change. Please consider lifting this block or setting a time limit so I feel there is a clear path forward. Anyone is free to check my edits and lifting this block wwould help demonstrate the willingness to provide another chance. Greg Henderson (talk) 03:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

  Giving courtesy pings to those who have participated in prior discussions who haven't already participated so they have the opportunity to add comment, if they wish. I think I got them all here. @Left guide, Netherzone, Voorts, AP 499D25, LegalSmeagolian, Qcne, Seasider53, Drmies, Bradv, Seawolf35, Timtrent, Robert McClenon, and Grand'mere Eugene: Graywalls (talk) 09:20, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose unblock If Greg's passion for writing was matched by his actions in the undertaking of it, we wouldn't be here. The number of I understand, I won't do it agains in his responses to his many slaps on the wrist, only to then go ahead and do the same thing without a second thought is, frankly, astounding. Seasider53 (talk) 09:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
• Neutral: I've been aware of this discussion since before Seasider53 pinged me here (you may have seen me in the thread 'Reporting SHJX' below), though it's a bit of a long read for me and I am not very good myself with the process of article creation. But since I've been invited to join this discussion here, well, I'll add my thoughts on this matter from what I've read and seen. I feel so-so about the partial block from article space being lifted. I definitely get that Greg is wanting to be able to contribute to article space for once in good faith again. I had a look at those five articles listed by Greg above myself, and Kirk Creek Campground (a 3 March creation) had some shocking quality problems and non-minor errors (e.g. link to pirated content) according to the page history, but article creations since then don't seem to have had such major issues, except for unencyclopaedic content which appears to be a running theme however. Regarding LLM use, I too have a same feeling, and this doesn't make me feel good, though at least Greg is trying to address it immediately with an edit request directly below it. Overall, I would like to see a lot less of potential copyright, LLM-like text and promotion-like content issues before I feel confident in supporting an unblock, considering that this is the second partial block which comes just a few months after an unblock from the first one. — AP 499D25 (talk) 11:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

  I believe it's indicative of AI driven contribution when these things continue to happen and communication does not resolve the issue as it should with humans. I didn't mean just the contents, but even in this discussion, GPT Zero returns 98% score for The Partial Unblock Request submitted by Greg on 16:56, 5 June 2024 (UTC). "I understand your perspective and..." on 22:32, 6 June 2024 (UTC) 98% AI "I've written 20 articles on the aforementioned sites..." on 20:48, 7 June 2024 comes up at 82% AI. Graywalls (talk) 14:42, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose unblock - I am not an admin, but am familiar with the problems of Greg's editing. There is another long-term problem in addition to the COI and that is misrepresenting sources and inaccurate/or wrong sources. He has submitted several drafts this way, then wastes editor's time by submitting multiple edit requests to fix these. Sometimes the edit requests had errors or wrong information in them, and the edit had to be reverted (this was especially problematic with newer editors who would fulfill the edit requests without first checking if the requested changes matched what the sources actually said). Too much wasted time discussing inaccuracies and problems. There is also the walled-garden matter to consider and use of AI. There are numerous paper trails on his user page and on multiple article talk pages about all of this. I do not think it is a good idea to lift the block, if he is unblocked it will once again waste hours and hours of volunteer editor's time. I was wasting so much time it was interfering with my ability to edit in my areas of my own interests, so I haven't checked the flurry of the newer drafts or articles because it was such a time-sink. Sorry, but oppose unblock. Netherzone (talk) 14:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Editors here have done a great job working on the many problems in Greghenderson's drafts--that this work still needs to be done says enough. Drmies (talk) 15:13, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose – Greg needs a surprising amount of coaching given the length of his tenure here, and the current arrangement appears to be working okay. – bradv 16:51, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
• Neutral because I have not seen the quality of their editing for a while, so feel any comment will be based on stale data. I have some concern that Greg requested AFC Reviewer privileges while blocked from article space. I'm not sure why that was considered to be a good idea at this juncture, but that does not make me question their editing, though it says something about good judgement. I see they have huge goodwill, and much to offer, and yet I cannot offer more than a neutral formal opinion 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 16:55, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock. Greg Henderson has had more than enough chances to remedy his habits of "close editing", COI, and probable use of AI in his editing articles (and probable use in discussions like this one, too). If he is to continue to edit at all, his current status (having to propose edits for others to review) is more than a kind enough remedy to his questionable contributions. — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 17:25, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-close comment. The reversal of a partial block is not a partial unblock. Please think about what you are writing. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:25, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

@Phil Bridger: If this is humor, seems like now is not the time. If you're serious, consider whether kicking someone when they're down is what you want to do. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:04, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Out of the blue harassment and allegations for sockpuppetry and alleged personal attack

Out of the blue, a user named User:48JCL filed a useless claim against me for sockpuppetry, reason he found edits of some users which I do not know of matches with me and claims that I indulged in vote stacking. I responded I do not negotiate with users with harassing intentions or misleading claim (that has been closed due to incorrect filing). Even if there are articles which are not meeting the WP guidelines are deleted and I agree on those as they were not meeting the guidelines. I have contributed to articles and I need no approval from a user who falsely claim something irrelevant. Thank you. SuperHero ● 👊 ● ★ 21:36, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

D'SuperHero, it was not my fault that you decided to vote stack as an IP, see here, signing as a blocked user, seen here (ARNAB22 is blocked. You guys both edited Indian film articles) along with votestacking for a featured portal candidate with that same IP address, along with even striking accusations of you votestacking. In the past you have violated the three revert rule. You somehow nominated an article for FAC despite being new. I had a decent amount of evidence. It is not harassment in any form. You did not respond to any of my proof and your response summed up was "I received rights for my edits!" which does not mean anything. Cheers, 48JCL TALK 21:58, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Maybe @48JCL will tell us how they're aware of 2016 actions despite not having an account until eight years later. Star Mississippi 15:18, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Star Mississippi, I found the failed FPo candidate Portal:Saudi Arabia for inspiration while I was working on Portal:Botswana. 48JCL TALK 15:56, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Also, why do you not respond to your other warnings? You didn’t even add a topic saying that I have been mentioned at ANI. Have proper etiquette next time you do this. Cheers, 48JCL TALK 22:00, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

User:48JCL - The SPI investigation found there was insufficient evidence to support your accusations - repeating your accusations of sockpuppetry without more evidence can be seen as a personal attack. Please do not do that as it isn't helpful to anyone.Nigel Ish (talk) 22:23, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

I will report it again if he continues to defame or harass me as he is still accusing for something irrelevant, seems the user is jealous of not being an Admin. Anyways thanks for the support and will continue to do the contributions as usual. Peace out. ✌️ SuperHero ● 👊 ● ★ 14:13, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

48JCL, loads of IPs edit, and loads of people edit Indian film articles. Far too many of each for it to be evidence of sockpuppetry. D'SuperHero, you seem to be casting aspersions with "seems the user is jealous of not being an Admin". Phil Bridger (talk) 17:41, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Admins, this is going too far. Need attention for this as this is something ridiculous now. Now another user accuses me of sockpuppetry. Admins, I need to get this reviewed. I stand firm on my edits and I do not indulge in sockpuppetry. I need a proper review on users who are (defaming and personal attacking) using fake accusations. SuperHero ● 👊 ● ★ 21:55, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Phil isn't accusing you of sock puppetry. However your statement on admin jealousy is indeed unneeded and unwanted. – robertsky (talk) 11:05, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Wielding the mop is also not something to be jealous of! Hey man im josh (talk) 12:30, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the SPI conclusion: one edit by an IP eight years ago which was bizarrely signed by a blocked (but not blocked at the time) user is unusual, but there is no evidence whatsoever that D'Superhero made that edit. The allegation is absurd. 48JCL, please drop this now. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Ivanvector, I have already, before you posted this. 48JCL TALK 19:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Is it out-of-process to put hats on my sock?

Just now, I created User:JPyG (or, more accurately, I got Deadbeef to do it for me because of phab:T367025), because it is nice to have a testing account. Tonight I am going to test a notification template, but later I plan to use it for messing around with userscripts and CSS stuff due to my main account having a heavily customized interface. Anyway: what hats am I allowed to put on my sock? It would certainly be convenient to have templateeditor and extendedconfirmed, but this feels like the kind of thing that would be against some kind of rule. jp×g🗯️ 07:51, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Not an issue, if you're careful to avoid tin foil hats; you don't want your sock to start pushing fringe POV's. BilledMammal (talk) 18:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:ADMINSOCK seems to imply by omission that sub-admin rights are permitted, but that reasoning probably wouldn't hold up in court. jlwoodwa (talk) 08:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

With no statement on the policy (for which I believe none exists, but I could be wrong), I would say that as long as it’s a) done with community consensus and b) done transparently, it’s indisputably not a problem IMO. A significant component of user rights is the relative trust they imply, and I don’t see why a transparent secondary account used for testing purposes would be an issue, unless they violated an explicit policy such as ADMINSOCK. FortunateSons (talk) 10:13, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

It's too common for admins to add a bunch of hats to a spare account, then forget about the account. One day it gets compromised and some hacker has TE with IPBE, that or someone else has to go around cleaning up. It's good practice to set an expiration date for your socks. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 10:31, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

It's a common enough practice from what I've seen. Some alt accounts of admins that were granted perms by themselves:

• User:Joe Roe (mobile) -> Joe Roe
• Drkay -> DrKay
• Shellacked! -> 78.26)
• ☈ -> Ks0stm
• SemiAutomatedTime -> TheresNoTime
• WugapodesOutreach -> (Wugapodes)
• TBallioni -> TonyBallioni

I personally don't see any issue with it, aside from perms being left on the inactive accounts too long. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:44, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended confirmed is fine to leave indefinitely IMO, for template editor is might be advisable to set to expire unless also using 2FA on the test account. Alpha3031 (t • c) 12:56, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Could only find this :/ ꧁Zanahary꧂ (talk) 15:45, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• In general, it's fine and do it yourself. Setting an expiry is a decent idea, mostly so you don't hat up an account that you eventually give up on and forget about that gets compromised in the future. — xaosflux ^Talk 18:12, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

  Avoid EFM/EFH/IPBE unless you have a really good reason as well. And don't be worried if someone removes some flag during a routine inactive cleanup, missing that it is an alt - if you need it again its easy to turn back on. — xaosflux ^Talk 18:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I think this falls under "straightforward cases" of WP:INVOLVED. Galobtter (talk) 18:31, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

There's no dispute, so no. —Alalch E. 22:52, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I think you're misunderstanding Galobtter. This is the paragraph she's referencing:

In straightforward cases (e.g., blatant vandalism), the community has historically endorsed the obvious action of any administrator – even if involved – on the basis that any reasonable administrator would have probably come to the same conclusion.

jlwoodwa (talk) 23:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh right, thanks. —Alalch E. 07:31, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

This seems to be fine under WP:TESTALT though it doesn't really mention hatting your socks. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 22:36, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I'll just pile on with the suggestion to time-limit these grants, at which point (especially if it's for testing purposes) there's really not much harm and probably no issue. Primefac (talk) 14:58, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Query If accounts are supposed to be accessed by one person, are rights are given to accounts or the people who run them? Would JPyG inherit all the rights given to JPxG? Svampesky (talk) 16:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

No, per Adminsock and the policies about legitimate uses of additional accounts, you generally don’t get all the rights. However, as admins are given a lot more trust, I (and others) seem to agree that sub-admin rights are often allowed. FortunateSons (talk) 17:00, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Also see Principle of least privilege. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 17:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

• So to recap what's been said so far: I am allowed to be extended-confirmed, but I am totally forbidden to voice my agreement with the brilliant, handsome and wise user JPxG, even though he is right about everything...? Very sad if true. jp⑂g🗯️ 00:50, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

  You got your hats, be satisfied and return to the dresser drawer! You will be called when needed. jp×g🗯️ 00:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

RevDel request

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Could someone please revdel this edit summary? It is purely a personal attack. If you reply here, please ping me. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 22:32, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done @Thetechie@enwiki: Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:45, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

@Graeme Bartlett Btw, my username is TheTechie, not thetechie@enwiki, just for future reference. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 23:07, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

My ping error @TheTechie:. In my early days, my visible signature was "GB" but I figured out it was not a good idea as others did not know who that was, and even I had trouble searching for it. PS if an admin has a revdelled edit on their own pages, they will probably check what it was. In this case I would say oversight suppression is not warranted. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

No worries! Though I would tell people to hover over the names to see, I think it shows my username then. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 23:45, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

What about people without mice? I can't hover on my phone. 12.75.41.67 (talk) 04:13, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

POV edits at San Diego Reader

This is a followup to the ANI request I made 4 days ago here. The archived discussion is here.

That ANI request was the second ANI request in this matter, and it resulted in a 30 day protection of the page San Diego Reader by User:Daniel Case, if I recall correctly, because of multiple IP accounts making POV edits and "persisted disruptive behavior."

Six hours ago a third IP account posted on Talk:San Diego Reader casting WP:ASPERSIONS about "whoever" added the story to the page, going so far as to accuse that editor of being "convicted Antifa felons and/or their associates" and then going on to accuse that editor of exposing Wikipedia to a defamation lawsuit.

These aspersion come from three different IPS, but the aspersions cast are substantially similar to the ones in edit summaries here and here that were discussed on this page previously that led to the page being protected.

I request that the aspersions be permanently deleted from Facebook and that the IP account User talk:162.197.6.47 be banned in whatever way the administrators see fit. Kire1975 (talk) 09:50, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean, "deleted from Facebook"? Wikipedia has no control over Facebook. jlwoodwa (talk) 18:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Deleted from Wikipedia. Kire1975 (talk) 03:54, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Kire1975 has posted some defamatory comments on the San Diego Reader page and used very questionable references from last year to back up his assertion. The two USA Today references that he provides deal with the patriot rally group as a whole, a crowd of more than 100 people. There may or may not been white supremacists among them. The USA today article does not give specifics about whom they are calling "white supremacist". However Kire1975 extrapolates from these comments in USA Today to brand the victims of crimes of the Antifa defendants as "white supremacist". I sat through the entire trial except for the opening statements. The defendants attorneys did not show that any of the dozen or so victims that the Antifa "fought with" were white supremacist. If they had been supremacists, the attorneys would have certainly brought that out as part of their defense. Actually, the Antifa members did not have mutual fights with any of the patriots, either. The victims were shown in the trial to have been attacked without provocation. Some of the victims were not even there for the patriot rally, but were passers by or there for other reasons, such as to take photos for news purposes. There was a police line and the Antifa group never got close enough to interact with the main body of the patriots. If Kire1975 wants to brand these individual victims as white "supremacists", he needs a more specific reference that shows at least some of these individuals were white supremacists. Otherwise, he is exposing Wikipedia to a potential defamation lawsuit. He needs to have a much more definite reference for these individuals. Because he thinks some white supremacists attended the rally, does not imply that those individuals who were assaulted and beaten by Antifa were supremacists. I suggest that all of these comments about the Antifa trial be deleted from the page.

Also suggest deleting any reference to the reporter who covered the Antifa prosecution and her real name. She has already been threatened. Showing her name puts her at risk. She has worked for years reporting on crime and using the same pen name. One of the Antifa defendants tried to have her banned from the court hearings, but the effort failed. She was allowed to attend the entire trial and to take photos. 162.197.6.47 (talk) 21:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

There are sixteen paragraphs in the USA Today article I posted about the reporter who "used the false name “Eva Knott” to write for the San Diego Reader." The second USA Today article was added this morning by User:Rhododendrites as support. Between the two sources, participants in the rally are described as white supremacists nine times. The question of WP:RS has been vetted multiple times by users on the page and on this ANI noticeboard twice before. Wikipedia is not a WP:SOAPBOX to argue about the facts of the case. We are WP:NOTHERE to argue about definitions, cast WP:ASPERSIONS against people who you disagree with, do WP:ORIGINAL research or otherwise push a WP:POV agenda. The page is protected. If there is a change you'd like to make, you are welcome to make an edit request and seek WP:consensus the usual ways.

I have removed the real name of the reporter because of what you've said here. She is a public figure and her name is still in the source which I have no intention of removing, but I offer this as a compromise. All the best. Kire1975 (talk) 04:17, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

We are making progress. Let me just say that I do not represent the Reporter or even know her very well. I have only talked to her a couple of times at the trial. Also, I have not been a Trump supporter since he tried to challenge the election in such a whacky way. I didn't think they should be rallying for Trump after J6. I didn't think they should have been rallying in DC on J6 in the first place, because I felt like it was intimidation by by the threat of mob violence. If you want to call the 100+ people who rallied "Trump supporters and white supremacists" that is not defamation. However, I think it is in your own interest and the that of Wikipedia not to characterize the victims as that. Some of them were Trump supporters. But I haven't seen any proof that any of them were white supremacists. There is a general size limit on defamation. Calling a large crowd of more than 100 "white supremacist" is *not* defamation. Calling a group of 12-13 "white supremacist" *can* very well be defamation. Look it up or ask an attorney. I think the general rule is that you can't defame a group of more than 25. Suggest you re-word the text where it is clear that you are not calling the small number of victims "white supremacists". Because they may very well have a good defamation case against you and Wikipedia, if you do. 162.197.6.47 (talk) 21:28, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

One of the victims was at a bar drinking. When he came out of the bar rather inebriated, he mouthed off and they sprayed him with bear-spray. Another man was strolling with a friend down the boardwalk when he saw a group of grown men (Antifa) spaying and beating a very slight high-school boy. They beat him with a heavy walking stick. Eight Trump supporters, four of them high-school boys were just standing there doing nothing when they were bear-sprayed and some of them severely beaten, including with a baseball bat. It goes on like that. This was not mutual combat, it was unprovoked attacks. If you want to smear the victims as white supremacists, you should think about possible being dragged into court with Wikipedia to account for what you write. It has been proven in court that they were victims and no one showed that any of them were white supremacists. The have have a lot of video to show that they were attacked without provocation and they were the victims. They would be able to use the judgment in the criminal trial to support a civil defamation trial. There is already talk. You should think about whether you would like to defend your position in court or not. 162.197.6.47 (talk) 21:39, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

This is coming VERY close to the line of WP:NLT here. RickinBaltimore (talk) 21:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure I feel very comfortable about this unreferenced BLP gossip either. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I am not going to sue anyone and I am not threatening to sue anyone, but I am just explaining that this is defamatory. 162.197.6.47 (talk) 22:17, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Actually, I am trying to explain how to re-word the text so that there is no possibility that he and Wikipedia would be sued. I am doing the opposite of threatening to sue. I read on biographical pages that editors should be careful not to write anything that could be defamatory. In my opinion the way it is written now is certainly defamatory for the victims of the Antifa beatings. The reference he uses talks about some of the rally goers being white supremacist. However most of these attacks, happened an hour or two before the rally even started on isolated individuals. If you want to give the victims cause to sue Wikipedia, that's on you. It doesn't mean that much to me. :-) I am just trying to warn you about the possibility. 162.197.6.47 (talk) 22:44, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

In the title of your first post on this matter, you accused me of being a "felon and/or their associates."

How exactly am I being accused of defamation?

You've had plenty of opportunity to answer that question, but instead you have continued to make longwinded legal threats here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here.Kire1975 (talk) 00:08, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

You said the people that the defendants fought with are white supremacists. The only people the fought with were those that they attacked when they tried to defend themselves. That is defaming the victims in my opinion. I don't know who your are, but I have had a lot of experience with our local Antifa. And it seemed to me that they had mutilated the site in retaliation for the reporting, either by Antifa or someone they put up to it. I still think that may be what happened. Antifa has a lot of dirty tricks they play. 162.197.6.47 (talk) 00:24, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

That question has already been addressed here. USA Today called them white supremacists nine times across two articles that were published 15 months apart. No mutilation. No dirty tricks. Kire1975 (talk) 00:36, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

You keep saying that but USA today was talking about the rally as a whole and not these specify victims. Some of these defendants were not even there to attend the rally. There is no proof that any of the defendants are white supremacist. I am wondering if you understand defamation? Just because USA Today said there were some white supremacists at the rally, doesn't mean that everyone at the rally was that and certainly doesn't mean the victims are supremacists. The defense attorneys would have brought that out, if they had evidence the victims were white supremacists. They defense attorneys never claimed any such thing because they well understand what defamation is. 162.197.6.47 (talk) 01:00, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

It just seems like there was no reason to delete almost all of the page and emphasize only this Antifa trial so specifically in such a negative way unless it is retaliation for their reporting on the Antifa trial. It just seems very malicious to me. I thought Wikipedia was supposed to be more profession than that? Maybe not. I think they should roll it back before all this BS started. Who would do that other than Antifa or their political allies. It seems to be someone who has a political self-interest. 162.197.6.47 (talk) 00:49, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Will Carless says this about the victim in the USA today article: "A USA TODAY investigation revealed the victims in the DA's case include people identified by activists as white supremacist agitators notorious for spurring fights in neighborhoods where they're not welcome. At least one has a criminal record and has long been involved with neo-Nazi groups." If he found one who is a white supremacist and neo-Nazi, he should name him/her. Otherwise it just seems like empty rhetoric. He doesn't have proof and he's probably afraid the paper would be sued. But I believe the SD Reader Page is not the place for this type of thing. You should post your allegations somewhere where baseless allegations are more appropriate and appreciated. 162.197.6.47 (talk) 01:19, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Deleting almost all of the page?

The edit in question was written based on the USA Today article over a year before the verdict. If it's warranted, then changes can be made. I don't own Wikipedia, but I'm not going to listen or respond to anything more from you, after all these WP:ASPERSIONS and personal attacks. Kire1975 (talk) 02:36, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

To clarify above, they sprayed and beat the boy including beating him with a heavy walking stick. They guy that tried to help was also sprayed and beat up. This reference is the story of one of the photographers. He says it was not there for the rally. 162.197.6.47 (talk) 22:14, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

By the way, I don't have anything to do with the other two IP addresses. I am not using them to post here. There is no self-interest here on my part. 162.197.6.47 (talk) 21:12, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Why is a fourth IP account - User talk:75.25.170.201 - making minor grammatical copy-edits/corrections to your talk page comments here? Kire1975 (talk) 00:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

References

Just on a different note, can someone explain how accusing an editor of being a "felon and/or their associates" is not considered a violation of the policy against personal attacks? EggRoll97 ^(talk) 02:42, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I've blocked User talk:162.197.6.47 for 1 week for disruptive editing. The rationales "personal attacks" and "legal threats" were both viable alternates. – bradv 02:54, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Graywalls and Scouting articles redux

Pages: See below
User being reported: Graywalls (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This is a follow-up to this incident from March:

Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1153#User:Graywalls_reported_by_User:72.83.72.31

I believe that the original post was a cut and paste from an earlier complaint I had made. At that time, the complaint was on the multi-article attack made on the following articles.

• White Stag Leadership Development Program (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/White Stag Leadership Development Program
• Béla H. Bánáthy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - unilaterally removing large swaths of content
• Boy Scouts of America (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - removing content repeatedly, and after being challenged ignoring the discussion started on the talk page
• COPE (Boy Scouts of America) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - unilaterally redirecting a page with no discussion
• Leadership training (Boy Scouts of America) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - unilaterally removing large swaths of content with no discussion
• National Advanced Youth Leadership Experience (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - unilaterally redirecting a page with no discussion
• Philmont Training Center (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - unilaterally redirecting a page with no discussion
• Scouting (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - unhelpful editing
• American Heritage Girls - tagging the article with multiple tags
• COPE (Boy Scouts of America) - Nominated for deletion
• Leadership training (Boy Scouts of America) - tagging the article with multiple tags
• National Advanced Youth Leadership Experience - tagging the article with multiple tags
• Philmont Training Center - tagging the article with multiple tags
• Philmont Scout Ranch - tagging the article with multiple tags

In the last few days, the editor has started again:

• Scouting in Washington (state)
• Scouting in Oregon
• Philmont Leadership Challenge with Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Philmont Leadership Challenge
• Seneca Waterways Council
• Mount Diablo Silverado Council
• Leadership training (Boy Scouts of America)
• Introduction to Leadership Skills (Boy Scouts of America) with Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Introduction to Leadership Skills (Boy Scouts of America)

... and finally, once again accusing people of having a conflict of interest:

• Talk:Scouting_in_Washington_(state)#COI_tag_(June_2024)
• Talk:Scouting_in_Oregon#COI_tag_(June_2024)

Previous efforts to discuss these issues have fallen on deaf ears. A lot of the critiques are true. There are a lot of articles that need some work. However, as an example. I'm working on restoring the Scouts BSA article to GA status. Wikipedia:WikiProject_Guild_of_Copy_Editors/Requests#Scouts_BSA. It takes time. It's like a constant barrage of edits. Even in the last few minutes on Scouting in Oregon and Scouting in Washington. What the heck.

There are constructive and collaborative edits, and there's hack and slash. I'd like to move to the former and avoid the latter. Thanks. --evrik ^(talk) 23:24, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Having read entirely through the previous discussion, every single uninvolved editor who commented in the previous discussion--including a number of admins--was largely supportive of Graywalls' editing in this area. The complaints didn't fall on "deaf ears"; they were read, understood, investigated, and disagreed with. In fact, there was more concern, along boomerang lines, about the sketchy "attack" language leveled against Graywalls by you and other editors that is being repeated here. Raising this again as a behavioral issue when the community has already responded that it is not seems unproductive to me. Grandpallama (talk) 00:24, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

• @Grandpallama: My original post was closed in a different forum, and I had no little involvement with the one I cited here. However, I do understand your point - but I read the conversation differently. Thanks. --evrik ^(talk) 00:30, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I had no involvement with the one I cited here It was opened by an IP, but you most certainly expressed your thoughts and participated in that discussion. Grandpallama (talk) 00:36, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

You are correct, I did participate. My memory fails me on that one. I’d like to say my participation was minimal. --evrik ^(talk) 00:39, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

@Evrik Just so I am understanding you correctly, are you expressing that the drive-by ANI was started by a party other than yourself? I say drive-by, because that editor never came back to make any other edits or followed up to the report they started and no registered editor came forward for their edit. Graywalls (talk) 00:36, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

@Evrik:, I don't appreciate your characterization of my edits as "hack and slash". Part of what you have restored in Scouting in Oregon is Camp Baker is the flagship camp located on a private peninsula on Siltcoos Lake just outside the coastal town of Florence, Oregon. Camp Baker has been serving Scouting and western Oregon for 50 years with a high-caliber open program. Troops come from as far away as eastern Oregon, Montana, Washington, Idaho and California. 17 great meals are served from the Kenneth Ford Dining Hall. Camp Baker is a popular destination for outdoor schools, church groups and family reunions. Wheelchair-accessible campsites and cabins are available.. Regardless of how you put it, contents like this fundamentally do not belong on Wikipedia and it is well within good faith constructive editing to prune unsuitable contents. Graywalls (talk) 00:33, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

You may not appreciate my characterization, but few of your edits are ever collaborative. You also have a habit of escalating things when you don’t get your way I’ve had people tell me that edits like yours are driving them away from being Wikipedians. I ask you, how are you being collaborative or cooperative? --evrik ^(talk) 00:38, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

one-on-one back and forth and restoring contents disregarding WP:ONUS is not collaborative. Seeking outside opinion to gain further participation from the broader community by sending re-direct that has been objected to AfD is collaboration. Graywalls (talk) 00:46, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

This seems flawed. I've looked through the pages and had a skim through all the links provided, and I don't see much of a problem with Graywalls' edits. Are they perfect? Maybe not, but that's more of a content dispute. I don't see anything behaviorally that would indicate a problem here on their side. Meanwhile, however, you, evrik, have quoted a "Scouting MOS" that doesn't appear to exist in the Manual of Style here (there's no MOS:SCOUTING or similar, and searching the MOS doesn't have a single mention of Scouting. Additionally, you're chastising them for the comment about a possible COI, regarding an editor who literally has "BSA" in their name. Frankly I think enough of the community's time has been wasted on investigating Graywalls' edits, and it may be best to move onto something more productive before this boomerangs. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 02:25, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

The MOS:Scouting is here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Style advice.It was created in 2007-08. Maybe we should create a redirect?

Yeah, not every wikipedian thinks about how selecting a name might cause people to question their motives. However, calling something into question years after the person has stopped editing seems pretty ridiculous. What concerns me more are the actions like Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#User: btphelps with regard to Bél H. Bánáthy and Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 207#Big Sur%2C California area touristy contents. Most of the people who edit on the Scouting articles have done so because of their volunteer relationship to the organization. It's simply dispiriting to have someone cast aspersions because of their choice of username or because they spent years developing expertise in this area. If Graywalls wants to improve the articles, great. It all just seems very POINTY. --evrik ^(talk) 04:07, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

So it's not an MOS, it's a WikiProject's consensus that hasn't been edited for nearly half a decade, and that contributors are absolutely not expected to know, and can absolutely contest the consensus regarding. WikiProject consensus, in my opinion, is usually a ridiculous proposition, given how out of the way they are. For reference, changing one's username is incredibly easy, so anyone who later wished not to be seen as having a possible conflict of interest because of that username, might be best served changing it. In addition, I wouldn't say it's ridiculous to say that volunteers of an organization could have a POV that isn't necessarily WP:NPOV with regard to that organization, so I don't see it as outlandish that they would think so. WP:COIN is an appropriate place to raise those concerns, and the few times they have been raised outside of that noticeboard seem to be at most a few out-of-place posts? We don't penalize editors for small issues like this. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 06:15, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

It's served as the MOS for more than 15 years. It's been tweaked, but has served so well that no one thought thinks that it isn't our MOS. The MOS isn't really the issue here, but if needed, it could probably get upgraded.--evrik ^(talk) 06:21, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Just because a document sat in a filing cabinet in a disused lavatory with a sign saying "Beware of the Leopard", it does not mean that it's a valid MOS. I'd argue the fact no one even knew about it for so long is a good indication it was not a valid MOS. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:02, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Meanwhile, Evrik doesn't seem to have any issue with User:Btphelps posting blatant personal attacks on user:Graywalls (and others) on their user talk page[1]. Btphelps repeated the attack on their own user talk page (also in the edit summary).[2]. Fram (talk) 08:53, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

• I never said I didn't have an issue with it. I probably wouldn't have posted it myself. However, this action Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#User: btphelps with regard to Bél H. Bánáthy basically meant that decades of volunteer work to the BSA have now been classed as a COI. I can understand their frustration. --evrik ^(talk) 14:05, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

  Letting personal attacks against an editor you open an AN discussion about, stand on your user talk page, certainly gives the impression that you don't have an issue with them. And while I don't know if Btphelps was a paid editor or not, they clearly have a COI with regards to everything related to the White Stag Leadership Development Program, considering that he was a co-director of it (on-wiki declaration, no outing). Fram (talk) 14:25, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

• No editor was ever mentioned by name. I regularly remove old discussion from my page. I hadn't done it recently. In any case, I don't know that anyone is paid to be a director of a volunteer run youth leadership program. Usually these are volunteer positions. Usually the volunteers donate their own money to the program. I think that COI decision was wrong, and probably a slap in the face. I can't imagine volunteering and donating money to an organization, and then being told their expertise is now a conflict of interest. That's some of the legacy of what Graywalls started. --evrik ^(talk) 14:54, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

• Are you really trying to defend the attacks because no name was given, but all information pointed to one editor only, as you well know? Please don't... And yeah, that's exactly what a COI is: if you have a leading position in an organisation (even unpaid) and then create articles for the organisation, its founder, ... then you have a rather obvious COI. I don't know why having that pointed out is such a huge issue for anyone. I also don't know why you were so fast in claiming there was no COI in that discussion. It seems that the criticism raised by others of a walled garden of some BSA editors defending each other and their articles, all the while ignoring general Wikipedia rules, has merit. Fram (talk) 15:09, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

• I've read Wikipedia:EXTERNALREL. What has been said is a COI, I view as being a subject matter expert. However, this discussion is a side track. --evrik ^(talk) 15:17, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

This again. I picked the Mount Diablo Silverado Council article and the very first reference is a link to Wikipedia and the second is Anglefire. Not a good start. The rest are either primary, SPS, or shakey as a secondary source. I will reiterate again here what I said the past, most of the articles need to be rewritten from scratch or deleted. The problem isn't Graywalls, it is the walled garden of BSA articles and a group of editors defending those walls. spryde | talk 13:20, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

• I made a request to have the angelfire link removed, Wikipedia:Link rot/URL change requests#Link within a citation wherever it may be found. --evrik ^(talk) 14:54, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and sent Mt Diablo to AfD. I tried to find anything independent of BSA that covered Mt. Diablo in depth but it doesn't seem to exist online or in the library/newspaper searches I did. spryde | talk 13:29, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

• I would agree that many of the articles need to be rewritten. I'm surprised you found no news articles. I found a bunch. Most of them had to do with this, Curran v. Mount Diablo Council of the Boy Scouts of America. --evrik ^(talk) 14:01, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

  • The issue with that is that is one event and it isn't about the council itself but the awarding/non-awarding of Eagle Scout to one of its members. It does not go into detail about the council itself, its history, or anything of that, just that event. Compare that to the Sam Houston Area Council for SE Texas and you find about the council itself which is directly about the council itself. SHAC is one of the largest councils in BSA and even then, I am having a hard time finding a second, in-depth article about the council itself, not its leaders, camp, or other aspects. You really need two in-depth articles, books, etc to pass GNG and then the all the other articles obliquely referencing the council can come into play. That's the issue with MDSC and other scouting articles. There isn't in-depth sourcing about the subject itself. spryde | talk 15:01, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

    You don't have to tell me. I spent a chunk of time working on South Florida Council when it got nominated for deletion. There is a clear difference in the quality of these articles. Many of these organization are decades old. They get press, but who has the time. If you look at List of councils (Boy Scouts of America), there are 272 active councils, and hundreds of closed councils. Most of the councils, like Sam Houston Area Council, get rolled up into the state page, like Scouting in Texas. Mt Diablo should just be merged here: Defunct local councils of the Boy Scouts of America in California#Mount Diablo Silverado Council. --evrik ^(talk) 15:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

• @Evrik: How did that IP know escalate your complaints to ANI in the previous thread? --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 17:23, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
• @Evrik: lets dig into the accusations of COI, are they a problem because they are false accusations or are they a problem because of the way they've been levied? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

There is a style of editing that goes like this: notice a problem related to unsourced content and/or somewhat promotional content and remove it; check related articles to see if there are similar problems, and continue following the thread, removing/deleting content as it appears, until reaching the natural end. It's efficient, of course, for anyone whose primary interest is removing bad content. Stumbling upon a trove of problematic work means there's a lot that can be fixed before moving on to another topic. I've done it; it feels good to "fix" a whole area. For anyone with an interest in that subject, however -- people who have invested countless volunteer hours writing it -- it's an overwhelming nightmare. It takes far more time and effort to improve/source content and to prove notability than it does to remove/nominate for deletion. Some topics have large communities of editors behind them that might come out and defend work or who can spread out the task of improving a long list of articles, but most topics don't have that. For many topics, one person can in an afternoon completely overwhelm the available volunteer base. You could say "well there's no deadline -- improve/restore content as you get to it", but beyond "no deadline" originating as a reason not to remove/delete it doesn't factor in the humanity of the situation. The result is almost always bad blood, harsh words, stress, and retirements (or blocks for letting that overwhelming negative emotion come out as personal attacks [to be clear, not giving a pass to btphelps here, whose comments highlighted in this thread are beyond the pale]).
I wish that Graywalls would take a different approach for the sake of the people who spend time adding to this project -- even if they're made mistakes and even if the standards have gotten stricter over time -- recognizing the emotional toll of "going deep". Having said that, for better or worse, it's a form of editing that there's not going to be an appetite to stop in 2024. Maybe in 2007, but today there are more than a couple users who think purging subpar content is priority #1, and that content issues will always take priority over the feelings or retention of editors. More importantly, there are even more users who don't love the approach and the bad feelings it causes but don't see it as sanctionable, perhaps because it's too hard to identify how much is too much. I fall into this latter category most of the time.
In the end, standards for English Wikipedia in 2024 are much higher than they were, and policies like WP:PRESERVE don't get you as far as they used to. If you want to object to someone targeting the area you've invested part of your life in and you cannot convince them on a human level, you have an uphill battle ahead of you, because removing rather than improving or preserving subpar content is the order of the day -- it's just easier, so a lot of people do it, and often it does improve the quality of articles. So take the lumps, take a step back, and then please stick around for the long, frustrating process of bringing that content back up to standard. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:26, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Sidetrack: unacceptable personal attacks

Thank you, Fram, for this edit, "Evrik has no issue with allowing blatant personal attacks against Graywalls on his talk page it seems": please click the links to see what User:Btphelps had to say, twice, about User:Graywalls and their penis. Or is "weenie" just a sausage in scout talk? It's such an infantile comment that it doesn't bear repeating here. The edits were a few days ago, and perhaps it's too late to block, but this really cannot stand. At a minimum the editor should be given a one-way interaction ban, and perhaps a topic ban from scouting matters. But note also their comments in these diffs about "leftist editors" and "wokist CEO Katherine Maher"--we've blocked for such comments before. Given my history with the scouting stuff I am not going to act administratively, and I think that by now, given the post above, we are into territory where sanctions likely need to be community sanctions. Let me note that I have not looked beyond Fram's diffs at the editor's recent behavior and comments--but let me repeat Fram's point that User:Evrik simply let it stand on their own talk page (until Fram pointed it out). Drmies (talk) 17:05, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Personal attacks by Oz346 and Petextrodon

Oz346 and Petextrodon, have repeatedly engaged in attacking me personally by means of unsubstantiated allegations. The initial few [3], [4], [5] I have ignored, however it is coming to a point that it is no longer possible to engaged in a meaningful discussion in the article talk page and has become very disruptive since they are attempting to change the content dispute into a personal attack [6], [7], [8] and gone as far as to include these allegations in an edit waring report against me [9]. Now they have effectively stopped me from editing [10]. Kalanishashika (talk) 13:51, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Kalanishashika is a WP:SPA solely edit warring in the Tamil Genocide page ,he violated WP:3RR but was let off after a warning he tried to game the system by making a fourth revert after 24 hours. There is no personal attack by Oz346 and Petextrodon who have been working to improve the project. No one has stopped Kalanishashika from editing Tamil Genocide page.Dowrylauds (talk) 15:20, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I cannot see the diffs Kalanishashika is linking as I'm editing from the Wiki app which is glitching on my phone. However, if it's a reference to my statement that his account is a WP:SPA that is solely removing mentions of crimes committed by Sri Lankan government forces, then that is a fact and not a personal attack. His account has been solely removing content about government war crimes chiefly from the Tamil genocide page, but also the 1984 Manal Aru massacres page (including content from well established sources which have already been vetted as reliable by an admin on the Sri Lanka Reconciliation project). Oz346 (talk) 16:02, 13 June 2024 (UTC)