User talk:Jimbo Wales

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This talkpage has been mentioned by a media organization:

Matthew Gault (8 December 2021). "Wikipedia Editors Very Mad About Jimmy Wales' NFT of a Wikipedia Edit". Vice Media. The trouble began when Wales posted an announcement about the auction on his user talk page—a kind of message board where users communicate directly with each other.

Admin

Are you an administrator of Wikipedia? Couldn’t find you on the list. 48JCL TALK 21:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, see Wikipedia:Role of Jimmy Wales#Founder flag for an explanation. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 23:29, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Plastic-eating fungus caused doomsday

Short fiction in the form of a WP talkpage discussion, from Nature. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:03, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was looking around and came across your message. I think the story's format is cool. Necatorina (talk) 22:45, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The ADL is "generally unreliable"

Due to a new RSN discussion [1] (I just became aware of it), the Anti-Defamation League, one of the oldest and most prominent civil rights organizations, has been declared "generally unreliable" on Israel/Palestine issues. The ADL issued a statement saying this was the result of a ”campaign to delegitimize the ADL” and that editors opposing the ban “provided point by point refutations, grounded in factual citations, to every claim made, but apparently facts no longer matter.” This is being disseminated on the JTA, and is starting to be picked up by Israeli and Jewish newspapers. A pretty strong statement by the ADL, which tends to be fairly circumspect, and not exactly a ribbon in the hair of Wikipedia or the Foundation. Coretheapple (talk) 13:55, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In that discussion - which I didn't take part in and am therefore reading for the first time - I certainly do not see "point by point refutations, grounded in factual citations, to every claim made". This is ironic because that suggests that they have responded to a survey that found their output to contain significant misleading claims, with a statement that is ... well, misleading at best. Black Kite (talk) 14:12, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever. It would be interesting to see if the ADL uses its formidable resources (which I believe exceed the WMF's) into an effort to demonstrate that Wikipedia is the "generally unreliable" source. We shall see. What is the emoticon for "popcorn"? Coretheapple (talk) 15:11, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
not like people already think wikipedia isn't an unreliable source. ltb d l (talk) 16:28, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that's a possibility. But in the end, like every single other political hot-button issue, if people are told things that they want to believe, they will believe them, regardless of whether those things are factual. Black Kite (talk) 18:23, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They can start with Wikipedia:General disclaimer, Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a reliable source and WP:RSPWP. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:47, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CNN staff article: "Wikipedia now labels the top Jewish civil rights group as an unreliable source," so it has emerged from the "Jewish news" silo I mentioned earlier. However we all will be delighted to know that this is viewed as a slam on ADL's reputation, not Wikipedia's. Coretheapple (talk) 20:18, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From that CNN article: “ADL’s leadership has taken a much more aggressive stance than most academic researchers in blurring the distinction between anti-Zionism and antisemitism,” said James Loeffler, professor of modern Jewish history at John Hopkins University. “It’s clear from reading the Wikipedia editors’ conversation that they are heavily influenced by the ADL leadership’s comments.” starship .paint (RUN) 01:17, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've read that article, also JTA, The Independent and The Forward. There seems to be some agreement among these that "The WP-hivemind may be on to something." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:43, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure there will be more exposure, and of course the question will be whether one "likes" the ADL or "dislikes" it. If you are in the former camp you will not like what Wikipedia did. If you dislike the ADL you will be happy. That's where this stacks up. Coretheapple (talk) 14:29, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I hope that attitude, which I agree is inevitable in many parts of the media, stays far away from our discussions of the issue. Liking or not liking, agreeing or disagreeing, is really a terrible way for anyone to decide whether a source is reliable, and not the way that Wikipedians approach it.Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:51, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo, that's not my point exactly. Whatever we do in this area is read by the outside world, and this strikes me as a reputational self-goal. It may be fabulous, we may adore it, we may think it is the cat's pajamas, but that is what it is. Do we (as individual editors) care? We should not. But I think it is worthy of note. To me it's a bit reminiscent of how paid editing became an issue despite all Is being dotted and all Ts crossed. I recall engaging in quite a bit of argumentation over that, until I realized that I was dealing with a reputational self-goal. Coretheapple (talk) 16:11, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

With all due respect, I believe you are beginning to take this matter quite personally and are ignoring the fact that the consensus was reached with the aim of creating a better encyclopedia rather than pushing a specific point of view. Additionally, Wikipedia always faces challenges from many powerful entities like the Chinese and Russian governments. The criticism from the ADL doesn't make much difference in that regard. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 14:52, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I come to Jimbo's talk page every ten years or so. Please be good enough to let me do so this decade without personal remarks. Thanks in advance. Coretheapple (talk) 16:24, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Every ten years or so" is a bit of an exaggeration... you've edited it twice as much as any other page, a full five percent (!) of your edits. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:40, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I come to Jimbo's talk page far too frequently, twice as much as any other page, a full five percent of my edits. Please be good enough to let me do so without making personal remarks. Thanks in advance. Coretheapple (talk) 16:54, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The root cause is Wikipedia's over-generalization regarding sources. For wp:ver purposes, the standard needs to be context-specific: "expertise and objectivity with respect to the text which cited it" And a part of the over-generalization process is to pick a source that you don't like, find and highlight misstatements (which all sources make) which then opens them up to a political/"I don't like them" pseudo-vote and deprecation. The second issue is that the same standard/deprecation then excludes them from wp:weight considerations. With major sources excluded, this skews wp:weight-based content. North8000 (talk) 17:25, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In this instance, hostile, partisan sources that are recognized as reliable by the project were used to show unreliability. "Oh my goodness, The Nation thinks the ADL is unreliable!" What a shocker. Coretheapple (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The systemic problem is that the system allows an overgeneralization (usable wiki-wide) to come out of such a politicized process. North8000 (talk) 21:23, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The politicization of the process is the problem. Perhaps it is inevitable, but to simply circle the wagons and say "golly the community reached a consensus and all is right with the world" ignores reality. There is an outside world out there. The outside world doesn't see a "community." It sees the same few people on both sides, with the side having more numbers winning. That is the "community" that outsiders see and they are not imagining it. Coretheapple (talk) 22:02, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to politely ask you to walk peacefully away from this discussion, as you are effectively labeling the Wikimedia community as "detached from the outside world" in your latest message. I see this as a very counterproductive characterization. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 22:32, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]