Talk:Hampshire

Ethnicity

Enullnull - I won't revert your edit (even though you're not following WP:BRD advice), but there is no basis for the ethnicity figure of 96%, when at the 2011 census the figure was 89% white. Please delete it or add a reference to back up the 96%. Can't really see the point in an ethnicity figure in the info box, anyway; smacks slightly of racial bias? Thanks, Tony. Tony Holkham (Talk) 13:29, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Renaming

Why was this page moved without consultation and how do I undo the move? Murgatroyd49 (talk) 08:44, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

OK I've moved it back. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 08:50, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

And I have reinstated the hatnote which had been removed. --David Biddulph (talk) 08:53, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Murgatroyd49 (talk) 09:40, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

It seems obvious that there should have been consultation before making such a change. Should the editor who did it be advised before they make a habit of it? In case anyone else considers making a change in future, please bring the subject to talk first.SovalValtos (talk) 11:16, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

The editor is experienced, which makes the change a little puzzling. He said 'vague/dab' so I assume he is thinking of 'New Hampshire' or Hampshire county, Virginia. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 13:34, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

I heard of this place yesterday for the first time ever, and I'm relatively experienced with my geography. Therefore, if I am unknowledgeable about this location, then I can't imagine that the majority of Wikipedia readers would ever have heard of it, either. True, I should have discussed first, you're correct; but the place seems so obscure that I took it for granted that most would agree, my error. Castncoot (talk) 19:38, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

It's probably not the best approach to think something "obscure" because you haven't heard of it. As it happens, Hampshire certainly isn't. I'm sure there's several dozen large cities in the United States that I haven't heard of (and my geography is fairly good), but I wouldn't think that makes them obscure by any objective standard. --Inops (talk) 22:56, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Hampshire County Council coat of arms

I queried the removal of the HCC coat of arms by Julia Gavin, and got this response (comments welcome):

Hi Tony

Thank you so much for leaving a message. I work in Corporate Marketing at Hampshire County Council. The image of the Hampshire County Council coat of arms that features on a number of Wikipedia pages IS NOT the approved version of the coat of arms. I've tried to find the source and it looks like it has been uploaded by User:Fenn-O-maniC - this is not work officially commissioned by Hampshire County Council and we do not want it being circulated online as it misrepresents Hampshire County Council.

Please have it removed from all instances it appears, including wiki-Heraldry and Wikimedia Commons.

My email is corporate.marketing@hants.gov.uk if you wish to verify my comment.

Many thanks and I look forward to hearing from you. Kind regards Julia Gavin Julia.gavin@hants.gov.uk — Preceding unsigned comment added by Julia Gavin at Hampshire County Council (talk • contribs) 16:30, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Julia. Can you point me to the actual arms of HCC, if that's possible? I am removing it from the Hampshire article for now, as it is not strictly necessary there, anyway, pending the outcome of this discussion. Tony Holkham (Talk) 16:41, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

I see a process to rename the commons file as "unofficial" is under way here, but I wonder whether it shouldn't be deleted altogether. However, my knowledge of commons procedures is next to nil, so I will leave it there. Thanks, Julia, for pointing it out. Tony Holkham (Talk) 16:58, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

The versions of the county council coats of arms used in the various Wikipedia pages differ from the official versions because most of the official depictions are still under copyright law and thus can't be freely used. As a compromise I've made copyright free versions of the county council arms. These versions are still heraldically speaking the same as the original arms, just have a different graphical depiction. --Fenn-O-maniC (talk) 14:34, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Understood, but if the depiction is not acceptable to HCC (it misrepresents them), then we cannot use it on WP to represent them. Tony Holkham (Talk) 14:41, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Mind you that before the copyright free versions most of the county (council) pages lacked any depictions of the arms and people looking up the county council symbols wouldn't have found any images of them here on Wikipedia. I must emphasize that a depiction or, more properly an emblazonment, of a coat of arms is valid as long as it follows the original blazon written when the arms were originally granted. For example the arms of HCC need to show the Royal Crown and a rose in specific colours, which the copyright version does. I reckon this issue has more to do with people lacking knowledge in heraldry and mixing the complicated art of coats of arms with that of logos and such. --Fenn-O-maniC (talk) 14:59, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

I'd love to know how the illustration "misrepresents" HCC exactly. If you look at the heraldic blazon given on civicheraldry.co.uk, you'll find that Fenn-O-maniC's version matches it in every respect. It may not look identical to whichever logotype the council happens to use, but that doesn't make it an invalid depiction of their arms. Zacwill (talk) 08:09, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Agree with Fenn-O-maniC and Zacwill; the employee's request is a misunderstanding of heraldic practice and inconsistent with what's done on other heraldic pages. Wikipedia is a free and open resource and does not comport with every brand strategy. Until there is consensus to change, I've reverted the removal. - Novov T C 01:31, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi Tony, we have no objections to the Coat of Arms created by Fenn-O-maniC, as long as it is clearly labelled either a depiction or a representation of Hampshire County Council's Coat of Arms in the title and subtitle. Thanks, Julia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Julia Gavin at Hampshire County Council (talk • contribs) 13:11, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments from everyone above. While I can see there is no substantial objection to the (depiction of) the arms on the article's infobox, even given equal prominence to the county's flag, I still wonder why the arms need to be there at all, when (a) the article is about Hampshire, and not HCC and (b) the arms do not appear on the HCC article. Am I missing something? Tony Holkham (Talk) 14:28, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

The infoboxes do have the option to display the arms above the council section. At one point I did try to move them there for some of the counties but the edits were reversed as to "fit with the other country subdivision styles" despite the ownership of the arms being very different in England compared to the German states for example. In some county pages the arms are correctly labelled as those of the county councils but I've yet to figure out how this is done in the editing. --Fenn-O-maniC (talk) 20:08, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

I can't fathom it. The full infobox template Template:Infobox UK England county doesn't help. Until there's an explanation, I suggest dropping the arms (as they are not Hampshire's) for the time being. Sorry that's not helpful. Maybe you should ask at Template talk:Infobox settlement? Tony Holkham (Talk) 20:33, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

The image is available in commons for those who want to look.SovalValtos (talk) 21:57, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

This is just how heraldry works in Britain. Places themselves aren't granted arms – instead, their governing bodies are. The arms in the City of London infobox, for example, technically belong to the City of London Corporation. The same goes for any other city or county, including Hampshire. Zacwill (talk) 22:02, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

The Hampshire Council has no jurisdiction in this matter as it does not fall under them to govern the correct recreation of Blazons on the Internet, outside their area. I defend the Blazon creator & say wikimedia should keep it up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 13:58, 24 August 2021 (UTC)