User talk:Longevitymonger

I just checked the SSDI, and an Elizabeth B DeTrevino, who was born September 2, 1904, is listed as having died December 2, 2001 in Texas. I think this is the lady you asked about on her entry here. She was one of my favorite authors. Haddison (talk) 03:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Lula Clark (1894-2003) died on March 1st of this year, shortly after her 109th birthday. Sadly when we met her on September 19, 2002, she was not totally with it but almost seemed capable of conversing with us at times.

Oh, and if it isn't already painfully obvious, I am the crazy cousin. Katagelophobia

I'm going to try sending pictures again, using a "scan to e-mail" thingy on the scanner. Expect some things by today (Oct 23) or tomorrow. Katagelophobia 23 Oct 2003

You might be interested in some information I just found at the library about Alphaeus Philemon Cole Katagelophobia 10 Dec 2003

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So who were Sadie & Bessie Delany? -- Infrogmation 17:33 Apr 20, 2003 (UTC)

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Though I doubt that anyone mentioned needs an article, I thought you'd be interested in the following link: 113 year old woman who witnessed the San Francisco earthquake dies -- Someone else 03:02 Apr 23, 2003 (UTC)

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Interesting! I had no idea that Mary Christian had died or that she was ill, but she was 113 don't forget. Well, the title now passes to 113 year old Elana Slough. Just in case anyone was wondering, the oldest person in the world is Kamato Hongo of Japan, who was born Sept. 16, 1887 and will be 116 this year. Longevitymonger

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Thanks for you additions to Carl Rakosi. I met him a few years ago in Dublin when he was more alert and alive at 95 than most 40-year-olds I know. Bmills 11:57, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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BIG NEWS I have discovered a great man: Ancel Keys!!!!!! He was a physiologist and scientist who studied various diets. He appeared on the cover of Time magazine on January 13, 1961. Apparently he's been on Wikipedia for a while too. There is no indication of him dying, and in all likelihood he is very much alive (there is a picture of him at age 98 (which would have been taken in 2002!) His birthday is January 26, 1904 so he doesn't have long to go. Hooray!! Katagelophobia 16 Dec. 2003

Hooray for George Kennan! I've actually already captured those pictures of him from that page, though. Also I'm glad to see (or presume) that your computer is up and working again. Katty 17 Feb 2004

You'd better frickin' check this out: Xenophon Zolotas. Katagelophobia 4 Mar 2004

Do you have a source that Zolotas is in fact still alive? Adam 05:50, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Zolotas has been regularly listed in the International editions of Who's Who including the 2004 edition. If the man has died since it was published I'm sure someone would have mentioned it. Katagelophobia 3 May 2004

Article Licensing

Hi, I've started a drive to get users to multi-license all of their contributions that they've made to either (1) all U.S. state, county, and city articles or (2) all articles, using the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC-by-sa) v1.0 and v2.0 Licenses or into the public domain if they prefer. The CC-by-sa license is a true free documentation license that is similar to Wikipedia's license, the GFDL, but it allows other projects, such as WikiTravel, to use our articles. Since you are among the top 2000 Wikipedians by edits, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at minimum those on the geographic articles. Over 90% of people asked have agreed. For More Information:

• Multi-Licensing FAQ - Lots of questions answered
• Multi-Licensing Guide
• Free the Rambot Articles Project

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the "{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}" template into their user page, but there are other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:

Option 1

I agree to [[Wikipedia:Multi-licensing|multi-license]] all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:

{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}

OR

Option 2

I agree to [[Wikipedia:Multi-licensing|multi-license]] all my contributions to any [[U.S. state]], county, or city article as described below:

{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}

Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace "{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}" with "{{MultiLicensePD}}". If you only prefer using the GFDL, I would like to know that too. Please let me know what you think at my talk page. It's important to know either way so no one keeps asking. -- Ram-Man (comment| talk)

Hey! Good to hear from you. I do have a minor piece of age news: the person known as Louise Michelle Rosenblatt (evidently her middle name was Michelle not Michel), who was born August 23, 1904, died on February 8, 2005 at age 100. Here's a link to an obituary in the Boston Globe [1]. Other than that, and the genarians site constant barrage of new people, there isn't much to say. Will talk to you later. Katagelophobia 12 Aug 2005

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Well, sir, here's a small piece of news: you may remember this guy. [2] I'm sure they've got the age wrong and we have it right (remember the Madame Chiang...). So he is alive and moving around still. So how do you like that! Katagelophobia 17 May 2006

The Things of That Nature

Good work with the finding of the black ham. An instant addition. I haven't found anyone really new, although I did add Heinrich Heidersberger from the German Wikipedia to the list, and he is less than two weeks from 100. He does have a variety of pages and pictures floating around on the net in places.

Also, have you found anything recently on Joseph L. Henderson? He may have disappeared off the face of the earth. Same thing with Samuel L. Evans, whom I've left on the list expecting to hear about them dying. Kat O Gel O Phobia 29 May 2006

Many more centenarians!

Dear Longevitymonger, this is Manu from the German Wikipedia. I'd like to inform you, that in the last months I have created a very huge list of famous centenarians for our Wikipedia. Maybe this is interesting for you, because there are many people from the whole world, who aren't on your list yet. -- Manu87 15:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

As if this was necessary...

Surely you recall Victor B. Scheffer, who has sadly little on the net. He does, however, have this thing I just found: [3]. And with a face: [4]. Wooooop! Katagelophobia 3 Dec 2006

award

		The DYK Medal
		Awarded by this editor for a Did You Know contribution that appeared on the main page, a hook that was well written, referenced, and displayed irony, a fact related to a distinguishing characteristic of the subject of the article, or other notable property. AwardBot 15:02, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Things About People of a Seriously Advanced Age

When the stars line up and the motivational factors reach their peak, I would go hunting for pictures of some of those lame people (especially Antoine Pompe) who need faces. If you hadn't already seen, Luis Leal has a picture from his 100th. So that's gotta be useful for something, eh? Hmm. Kattagellophobbia 28 Oct 2007

Questionability

Concerning your aged people of possible notability, some of them require future consideration, but a few, like Marina Semenova had already been added. And there you have it. Katagelophobia 04:21, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

King Crimson

Hello. You may be interested in joining WikiProject King Crimson, covering articles related to the music group King Crimson. Please visit the project page.

--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 15:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Henry Jacques Gaisman

Hey I found a picture of him from the NY Times - It's from an old old article, but I have a picture nonetheless... What are the licensing issues about this? Dirkstanley 22:39, 02 January 2008 (UTC)

On the list of centenarians

In the case of adding new names, you should add a reference with them under new guidelines(despite a lot of referenceless names still, but those were added BEFORE the new guidelines, and should not increase). Also, a curiosity: Do you have your own list of upcoming centenaries for this year? You seem to have the most knowledge for that. --RandomOrca2 (talk) 02:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

		The Special Barnstar
		Thank you for your hard work and kind words, keep it up! Cheers, CP 02:22, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Response

Hello. Thanks for the news on one Samuel London Evans. Odd thing is I had looked him up about a month ago and found this site about him and seemed fairly confident (since it mentioned him at 104 years of age) that he was still hobbling around.

I will be back in the area around the Labor Day time period (most likely with Dan) so if you are thinking of coming down for a visit, don't make any plans yet. Take care in the meantime and all that other stuff. Go ahead and call me up if you ever feel like it. Katagelophobia (talk) 04:03, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Yup

Hallo. While I cannot guarantee finding any new good names that you don't already have, I can make an attempt. I presume our guidelines for people basically just involves them having some kind of elective experience? Is this incorrect? Or is it indeed true? Yes? No? Right. Good. Katagelophobia (talk) 02:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I did not already know of Saulnier, so he is a good add. Well done! Otherwise I have nothing of note to say. Katagelophobia (talk) 01:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Uh-huh

Woop! New Gibson picture means good news! I'll keep my eyes on this. And by the way, it's Ivor Fenton not Ivor Griffith, you doofus! Katagelophobia (talk) 23:22, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Uhhhhhhhhh

Nice work with the work. I will probably even process some of it, maybe even most of it! In the meantime, I have a non-pressing assignment for you, if you wish: Is Jane Richardson Hanks (born Aug. 2, 1908) still alive. That is all. Take care. Katagelophobia (talk) 04:42, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Hello there

Are you still around, or do you take a break from Wikipedia? Just asking, because it's getting kinda boring here without having the chance to engage in some sort of discussion. (Lord Gøn (talk) 19:18, 28 November 2009 (UTC))

Hm, Hasan, oh well, some people might get offended by the thoughts I have about that case, but you asked for it, so here we go. I really think that Americans are a tiny wee bit oversensitive about anything that looks only remotely like some kind of Muslim terrorist act, not to say that a certain clientele, the far right one, seems to be beyond paranoid. Some people really need to come down, stop going all emotional and take a more objective stance on these things. All the paranoia after 9/11 was a license for the government to bullshit you whenever they felt like it, so if there was one thing to be learnt from it, then it was to stay calm and objective no matter what. Well, not that I'd ever expect people to learn anything from anything, as a lot of the flock seems to have an innate lack of common sense.
That said, until proven otherwise I don't swallow the whole terrorism propaganda. Certainly, the whole matter has to be investigated thoroughly and looked at from every angle, but objectivity demands that we don't put a label on it before the investigation has come to a conclusion, or conclusive evidence undeniably proves a terrorist motive. The crux in this case is that religion very likely played a role in it, which is enough for many people to call it an act of terrorism, but in reality this doesn't prove anything.
The major question I have to ask is, why on on earth would he try so desperately to get out of the army, if he had a terrorist plot in his mind all the while? He certainly couldn't be in a much better position to strike America where it hurts most. If we mind listening to what Hasan himself said, then we find that he was of the opinion that Muslims should be allowed to leave the army for conscientious reasons, or there might be some severe adverse events. He thought the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were unjustified and he didn't want to have any part in them. Accordingly Hasan asked to be dismissed from the army, even offered to pay back the money they had spent on his education, and he had warned that something might happen, if Muslims were forced to stay, so, for him it must have been some sort of in-your-face attitude from the side of his superiors, when they assigned him to leave for Afghanistan/Iraq. Certainly, in his mind, they asked for it, whatever he was about to do.
I assume that he was under severe emotional stress, because of the inner conflict he faced of not wanting to take part in the war, but being forced to. So, his religion played a role, sure, but only because it was the origin of his conflict and distress, and not because he thought it was his duty as a faithful Muslim to kill as many infidels as possible. Obviously he was in an extreme dilemma, (yeah, I'm gonna repeat myself now) it was unjustifiable for him as a Muslim to wage war against his fellow Muslims, nonetheless he was forced to take part in it. What kind of choices did he have? If he thought that death was his only way to escape, then, as a Muslim, suicide was not an option. Someone else had to do it for him, and on the way out, he could as well punish the system for not letting him leave and for being insulted by those who were supposed to be his comrades. The teachings of a radical imam certainly gave him enough justifiacation for doing so. So here you have it, the perfect solution: Kill a bunch of guys, get killed, don't go to war, teach them a lesson, become a martyr, go to heaven and claim your 72 virgins. If he was suicidal, a suicide mission was the only plan that made sense for him, and it might explain why he didn't simply try to desert.
Granted, this might be an immense pile of bullshit, but that is, how I think about it. That said, I hope Hasan bothers enough to elaborate his reasoning, only then, and if the army bothers enough to make his statements public, will we know for sure.
Now to point two. It really was a pretty active year concerning mass murders, especially in the USA, though it seems, and I've read that somewhere else, too, that mass murders come in waves. 1999 was also a quite active year, as you mentioned, while in the years after 9/11 there wasn't that much going on. So, it could very well be, that next year will be a lot quieter. Interestingly there wasn't any major school or university shooting in the US this year, so maybe this is something to expect in 2010. BTW does your list contain only US-cases, or does it also list mass murders from the rest of the world? And how do you sort them?
What I find interesting is that everybody seems to remember Columbine, and you seem to be no exception, while I don't have any vivid memories about what I did that day, or if I sucked up all the news coverage. I simply don't know anymore. I am pretty sure I heard of it back then, but I can't recollect how much I bothered about it. The first shooting that I remember reading about was Jonesboro, and as far as I can remember I was disturbed by it in a similiar way as by the James Bulger case. The next shooting that struck me then was Erfurt, and at least by then I had a rabid interest in the whole matter, watching every little news bit. Though doing all this research and getting so immersed by it, that didn't happen before 2008. Anyway, such an avid interest in mass murders seems to be a very distinctive trait. At least you don't find a whole lot of "fan"-pages, as there are for serial killers. Well, maybe the social stigma is too big, so people rather don't make their interest public. Or we are simply the ultimate underground. Who knows.
I'll add the cases you've found, as soon as possible. The one about Poikoner made me chuckle btw. Though it is already part of the list, I've found only one source for it, which didn't bother to gave the guys name either. The funny part is though that the Argus article states that the case ocurred in Karatula, which sound like some weird crossbreed between the Karate Kid and Tarantula. I assume Mr. Miyagi would've been very pleased to be the sensei of an eight-legged martial arts-monstrosity that would beat the shit out of, well, Clint Eastwood for example. Ok, it could also be the title of the next Troma-film. And Takashi Miike will be the director, I can see it before my eyes already. Yep, this could be the ultimate trash-grenade. If Poultrygeist was enough to destroy your brain, and Ichi the Killer made you regurgitate your intestines, then Karatula will make your head explode. YAAAY!!! I have head exoplody! Ok, I got carried away. Just for the record, the real name of the town is Karstula. What a difference a single letter can make.
Last thing, certainly having some pictures of the perpetrators in the list would be a nice addition, and I've thought about it previously, but I see several problems: First, for most of them no pictures are available. Second, I wouldn't know where to put them, as the list is quite crammed already. Third, the lists would get even longer. And finally, copyright issues.
That's it. You have a nice day. (Lord Gøn (talk) 00:13, 30 November 2009 (UTC))

Le texte commence ici

The first thought that raced through my head when reading that there had been a shooting at Fort Hood was that eventually one of the soldiers had enough of his patriotic duty of fighting unwinable wars in foreign countries that seemed to serve only the purpose of producing lots of physically, mentally, or totally destroyed people on both sides. When the media reported of the possibility of two or even three gunmen involved I pondered how likely it was that several soldiers would team up to pull a Columbine at an army base. There had been shootings where two soldier would join forces, but they all occured in some desolate post-Soviet nation where the lower ranks were treated like shit, while they were paid only every now and then. When Hasans name and age were revealed I was pretty surprised. He is fairly old for someone in the military to go berserk and that he is a psychiatrist was also an unexpected twist.
BTW I wouldn't bother too much about your tax dollars. It's just money and that's at best just paper or scrap metal. I assume fate couldn't have been much worse for Major Hasan than surviving his little judgement day and losing his last bit of dignity by ending up physically ruined.

I guess at the time Dunblane happened I still had better things to do than to bother about some guy killing little school children. I wonder if I have seen anything on TV about it. It might be that I've watched something about Port Arthur, but then really didn't care enough to think of it as a big, important story. Hm, I guess it was all cartoons for me back then. A little sidenote, while I don't remember Columbine, I do remember the shooting in Bad Reichenhall in November 1999 and that guy who shot seven of a family in Bielefeld the same year. In all that time I've never forgot them, so I must have had a certain interest in these kind of things already. To what degree I don't know. Anyway, I suppose I must've followed the reporting about Columbine, I simply think it is very unlikely that I did not. Now that I think about it, we might've even discussed the incident with a teacher. Well, my memory is pretty murky, so I can't say anything definite.

Did your acquaintance tell anything else about Barbaro? If he was a quiet loner, or bullied, or something like that? Or could she think of anything why he might've gone shooting people?

Concerning your list, you have to be pretty busy, if you want to catch all those triple murders. There must be countless of them worldwide. Do you have any restrictions about how the murders were committed? e.g. do you also include arson-cases in your list?
That thing with the women and their unreported names, well, it's something we simply have to live with. You might think it is not that a big deal to state the full name of someone you are talking about. Nowadays you'd get angry letters and protest notes from several human rights groups, if you'd refer to a woman only as Mrs. John Smith, but in the good ole days a woman was pretty much defined by whom she had married. After all, why should anyone bother about the first name of some second class citizen?
If you are interested, here are several accounts of familicide from 18th and 19th century America, though you might know some of them already (Matthew Womble is also included, for example).

Regarding the Time article, I think they are exaggerating a little bit. Every decade had its horrors and catastrophes. Just think of the 90s, where we had the Rwandan genocide, the wars in Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Kosovo and Iraq, The Second Congo war began in the late 90s also. We had the Oklahoma City bombing, Waco, The LA riots, Luby's and Columbine, or a cyclone in Bangladesh that left more than 100,000 people dead.
The 80s also weren't that golden, with the Bhopal disaster, Chernobyl, the Exxon Valdez, the Tiananmen Square massacre, AIDS, the war between Iran and Iraq, the invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union, the second oil shock, or the economic crisis. (At least they had good music back then.) You'd find things like that in every decade, so to claim that this one was the decade from hell seems a little bit far fetched.
Ok, it was pretty bad, if you are a fan of animated television series or liked computer games with 2D-graphics, but besides that, I don't think so. Maybe the notion holds some truth for the United States, but certainly not for the world as a whole, and I wouldn't be so sure that the next decade will be any better. The real depressing stuff is still ahead of us.
I also cannot confirm that there were more mass murders in the US than in any other decade. Certainly the absolute number of mass murders is rising, but then so is population. And, at least speaking for those mass murders listed here, I can't see any increase relative to population. To the contrary, the number of mass murders seems to be pretty constant since the 1970s. The only thing that seems to be changing though, is that the death toll per shooting is rising. (Total number of victims on the other hand stayed pretty much the same). Anyway, personally I think the 90s, and also the 80s, were more extreme in regard of mass shootings than this decade. While we had four cases worldwide with at least 20 people killed in the 80s, and six in the 90s, in the last ten years there were only two. I think the sheer number of mass murders this year distorted the perception of the guys from Time magazine quite a bit, and they saw something that wasn't there. At least I doubt they have counted all the mass murders of the last decades and compared numbers, so the cited statement is likely totally unfounded. Besides that, there weren't many memorable serial killers in the US in the last ten years. Overall, I think this decade was pretty bland, with a severe lack of a distinct personality. Maybe it's the internet, or just my perception. I dunno.

BTW William Cruse is dead.

Et se termine là. (Lord Gøn (talk) 06:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC))

再次你好

Yeah, I also think that the story of Hasan will be with us for quite some time. Thanks to his survival the media has plenty of opportunity to report about the case in the future, and with all the terrorism allegations and the crime scene being a military base it will likely stay in the minds of the people even after the news flurry has died down. Though, maybe this might be one of the last mass shootings that will get a lot of attention for more than a few weeks, since people get rather accustomed to this kind of crime. With the wave of mass murders we had this year the sensation is dying down a little bit and it seems that the only type of mass homicide that still has the ability to grip the masses are school shootings which themselves have lost a bit of their shock potential over time. Or at least so it seems to me.

About the number of mass murders in the last decade, well, I wouldn't dare to guess the whole number, because so many of them are extremely underreported. Especially familicides are rarely reported internationally, so I assume the real number of cases is a lot higher than 115.
Though, I also like to do some calculations every now and then, and the best guess I've come up with is that there were between 2000 and 3000 incidents world wide since 1900 that would meet the criteria for inclusion on the list here. That is excluding all the familicides, which would likely double or triple that number.

I guess you misunderstood me a little bit, when I said that the death toll of mass murders is increasing. It's an average number and only applies to the United States (we don't have good enough reporting to make an assessment for the rest of the world) In fact, the number of high profile mass shootings, meaning the ones with at least ten people killed, in the United States isn't higher in this decade than it was in the two previous decades. Including all the familicides there were five of these cases in the 80s, four in the 90s, and, at least so far, four this decade. (The 70s had only one, but I'd say guys like Gacy, Bundy, or Corona sufficently filled that gap) Overall, it's the small cases that make the difference, that led to the increase of the average death toll from ca. 4.8 to 7.2.
Though I have to admit that this year we had a lot of those 10+ cases throughout the world, nine in total, with the last one happening just yesterday. Just for comparison, there were only three in 07 and 08. This means we have either just missed less or this year was incredibly busy in this regard. Anyway, cases with 20+ people dead were exceptionally rare compared to the 80s and 90s. In 1994 alone we had twice as many of them as we had this whole decade. If the number of these extreme cases continues to stay that low or even decreases it will take some time before anyone will get even close to the number of people killed by Woo Bum-kon. But who knows, maybe his record has already been beaten and we simply haven't heard of it, or it never was the record in the first place. on average there should be 20-30 people in a classroom with only one exit. So, if they are there to randomly kill as many people as possible, why don't they just do it like Thomas Hamilton, to try to wipe out a whole class? They'd certainly kill a lot more people that way than by walking through the hallways. Well, maybe their intentions were different, or they couldn't stomach to continue their bloodshed anyway. I dunno.

BTW, sorry for the late answer. (Lord Gøn (talk) 14:19, 13 December 2009 (UTC))

Boink!

This is actually the fifth mass killing in the US within the last two weeks, so it seems we are continuing where we left last year.
Just in case you've missed one of them:
Timothy G. Hendron killed three, wounded five in St. Louis
Jesse James Warren killed three, wounded two in Kennesaw, Georgia
John Kalisz killed three, wounded two in Brooksville, Florida
Five killed in Bellville, Texas
Must sleep. (Lord Gøn (talk) 07:29, 20 January 2010 (UTC))

AfD nomination of Ruby Muhammad

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Nomination of Abdul Majid Zabuli for deletion

The article Abdul Majid Zabuli is being discussed concerning whether it is suitable for inclusion as an article according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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Hey

Glad to see you back. I have to admit it was getting a little bit dull here, trapped between all those mass murderers and fellow Wikipedians who think they can carpet bomb an article into improvement. So having a conversation without having to build a second Maginot Line to defend yourself or your edits is kind of a relief. Anyway, the information about Heinrich Dorfmaler I have also found on "kriminalia.de", though I think there are some problems with this case. First of all, I couldn't find any other record mentioning a guy named Dorfmaler killing his family, besides a print from 1880 which obviously was the source for the kriminala-article. I've made a quick search in the Times and Guardian-archives and neither shows any hits, if you look for somebody named Dorfmaler or for a major familicide at that time. Sure, that doesn't have to mean anything, as it could be that some of the facts presented in the German document are wrong, but then I'm pretty sure that a ninefold murder in the London area would have found its way into newspapers and other publications. But as luck would have it, I had some correspondence with the guy running the kriminalia-site previously and I guess I may ask him, if he has other sources that prove the actual occurrence of this case. I know that on kriminalia.de it is stated that the murders happened in 1880, though I have some doubts that this is true, because the original document, printed in 1880 according to Google books and worldcat, states that it happened "3. Februar v. J." which means "on February 3 last year" which would be 1879. But to make things even more difficult, it could very well be that the document already was a reprint, so the year could be any prior to 1880.

Other cases that I found particularly interesting, well, I don't know. After reading about god knows how many mass murders I have trouble keeping them all organised in my head and they might show a tendency to blend into each other - especially all those look-alike familicides. One that stood out in my eyes though was the Hebei tractor rampage, but unfortunately the Chinese authorities apparently suppressed the release of more information on the case - at least I couldn't find any Chinese media outlet reporting about it after August 8 last year. Seeing how fast Chinese courts do their work, especially in cases of national interest, the perpetrator must be convicted by now, and likely has been executed already. So, we may never find out how many people were really killed in that incident. Another Chinese mass murder, the first major case in eight months btw, happened a couple of days ago, when a guy named Zhou Yuxin killed 10 people with a hammer. The case itself isn't that remarkable, but I must say that I am quite relieved that there is substantial media coverage about it. After all those school stabbings last year I've suspected that they might have banned any reporting about mass murders in fear of copycat-killers.

Then there's Wellington Menezes de Oliveira, the Rio school shooter, who seems to be heavily influenced by Cho Seung-hui. Unfortunately I don't speak any Portuguese and Wikipedians who do apparently can't be bothered to delve deep enough into the matter, to write an article that covers it adequately.

But here are a couple of interesting links:
Photos by Oliveira

and by Cho (for comparison)

'I was bullied': Gunman leaves photos and messages to explain why he shot dead 12 students in Rio massacre

Brazil debates bullying, 'imported' violence, in examination of school massacre that killed 12

Other than that, I can't recall anything else of interest. Ok, the postings of Jared Loughner on abovetopsecret.com were somehow entertaining in a quite confusing way.

As a last note, McElhill is not yet listed. I am going to add him later. (Lord Gøn (talk) 15:31, 17 April 2011 (UTC))

My whalenuts!

Hm, Zautze seems to be an elusive fellow. I've checked issues of several German and an Austrian newspaper and I found reports about a case where a man named Gundelach (or something like that) killed his wife and four children, as well as the story of a 5-year-old boy, who stabbed a 14-year-old to death for not greeting his sister properly, but nothing about Zautze himself. Though I did find a Dutch newspaper printing the same story on September 16, but it too doesn't give the exact date the murders occurred, leaving me with a wide array of possibilites. I don't know, either I didn't search thoroughly enough, or those two papers were reporting the case weeks or months later, or it didn't happen at all. Well, maybe someday I'll stumble upon a more detailed article.

Louis Travis isn't a lot better. I wasn't able to find any more information about the murders he allegedly committed or what motive he might have had. Only the story of his arrest was printed by other newspapers as well, but that one I find somehow confusing. On the one hand they are stating that Travis committed the murders a month prior to his arrest in November, which would be October then, I hope, but then they go on to state that he came to Nashville in May. So what does that mean? Did he journey all the way to Spalding county in October to kill those people? Or may it be that it is a mistake and he killed them, say, six months or a year earlier? Anyway, I can add Zautze, because he is sourced well enough and the circumstances of the crime are relatively clear, but Travis I have to put on backorder, until I find some more information about the murders.

Now to Lawrence Leflay. As far as I understand he killed six people including himself, and I couldn't find any report indicating anything different. Marvin Leflay seems to have been critically injured by a shot in the liver and this article mentions that he also suffered from pneumonia, but I couldn't find any report that clearly stated that he died later. It might be possible that he did not survive, but until proven otherwise we have to assume he did. Too often I have found cases where it was said that the victims were in hopeless condition, just to find out, after some serious digging, that they managed to achieve the impossible and cheat death.
I've checked the SSDI data base and searching for Leflay you get nine hits, only one of them going by the name Marvin, and he died in Dec 1975 at the age of 77. His last address recorded was Pepin, Wisconsin which is near Durand, where the murders happened. So I'm fairly sure that's the one we are looking for.

I guess it was a wise decision on your part not to engage in that joyful banter I had with DreamGuy. Although I have to admit that I found his stubborn repetition of unfounded statements extremely annoying and wished more than once that somebody with more authority than myself would come along and tell him that he is violating WP:DE, WP:GAME and WP:WL with what he is doing. Maybe I would have done so myself, if I had known earlier that he has quite a long block log for exactly those reasons, but then I think it's best to try to keep the ball as low as possible and any forms of accusation don't help a lot in that regard. Anyway, it seems that he has given up on that matter, at least for now, after leaving a trail of negative tags on the spree killers list. And I can live with that, as long as it keeps him quiet. Let sleeping dogs lie, that's the best you can do, and trying to accept that every other year somebody comes along who's really pissy and thinks he knows better than everybody else. DreamGuy wasn't the first one of that sort I had to deal with and he won't be the last one.

A short note on Oliveira and van der Vlis. First of all, I think school shootings in the US are a thing of the past. Not that there won't be one or another every now and then, but overall they are 1990s stuff; at least those major high school shootings, which are by far the most sensational, but have disappeared almost completely in the years after Columbine. Don't know why though.
Then I don't think that Islam had anything to do with Oliveira's shooting spree. I suppose the reason he put on that Islamist mask is the same as the one that makes other shooters adore Hitler and the Nazis or the military. What they are trying to convey is a badass image. They want to look dangerous to others so nobody dares to touch or hurt them - it's a cheap armor for the extremely insecure against the evils of society, so to speak. People like Oliveira couldn't make use of an ideology anway, because they have problems becoming part of any sort of community. I'd even go so far to suspect that this Abdul and the other guy he was mentioning existed in his mind only. Furthermore I remember reading that he didn't even own a quran, but had only a few copied pages and then it was also said that he quoted extensively from the bible on his Orkut page, which makes it even more likely, in my eyes, that his Muslim self was no more than a facade - which is another similarity to Cho, who used some biblical imagery to boost his rhetoric and probably to give him a justification for perpetrating the massacre that had long lingered and sprouted in his head.
Van der Vlis, as far as I can recall, left a farewell letter where he wrote about ghosts and his god. He took medication against hallucinations and delusions until seven months prior to the shooting and was likely schizophrenic. So he probably committed the shooting, because he wanted to have a real life experience of the "No Russian" mission of Call of Duty - Modern Warfare 2. (Just kidding on the last one.)

Finally, those pictures. I did my best to add as many images as I could, and I still have a few waiting for their inclusion. And don't be shy to add some yourself, because there shouldn't be any problems for fair-use, as long as the killer is dead and you name your source properly. At least the ones I've uploaded are still there, so I must have done something right.
May I ask where you got a shot of Danny Guades? I know I got mine from a TV-report about the case on an Indonesian news site, which isn't online anymore.
The picture of Lorne Acquin I know already, because I had to do some research about him a year or so ago, after the article about him was put up for deletion. If I remember correctly there should be others out there as well.
The one showing Callie Delport is really nice, especially because I didn't expect to see a more detailed article about his case until the South Africans begin digitizing their newspapers (which they should do as soon as possible). Now I got one, and even with a picture. And Bartholomew looks like a grumpy, old hillbilly. Funny that he killed ten people, but apparently had been jailed only for nine years. I guess he went out with a big smile on his face, having gotten away so cheap with Australia's biggest mass murder at that time.
I don't know about pictures of Malcolm Baker, but there should be one of Frank Vitkovic. I suspect it might've been printed in "They wrought mayhem" by Andreas Kapardis, and in "Killing for Pleasure" by Bill O'Brien there is at least a drawing of him. The best I could find online though is the one I've added to the Queen Street massacre article.
The original file for the image of Christian Dornier you posted you can find here, btw. I really wonder what terrible secret it is they are mentioning in the headline. Anyway, though I didn't know this one yet, it's not the first photo I've seen of Dornier. You can find another one here.
Something I've found just yeasterday is this one. It's Basileios Tsalapatanis (or at least I hope it's him, my Greek is almost worse than my Chinese, which I don't understand at all) who killed, I don't know, at least two of his comrades at an army base in Kilkis.

Last, there's a fairly easy way to get copies of images from papers in the Google News Archive or anywhere else. I don't know, if the followng works on other OS, but if you are using Windows you can save a screenshot by pressing the Print-key on your keyboard, which you then can paste and edit in Microsoft Paint. (Lord Gøn (talk) 17:34, 20 April 2011 (UTC))

Drømmer Om Død

Well, you have to live with it that in a capitalist society everybody wants to make money with everything, even with old newspapers. And I thinketh the British Newspapers archive isn't that nasty, because you can actually read the whole article, if you have a lot of time to waste, make a word by word search and piece together the upcoming results. A lot worse than that are IMHO archives like that of the Guardian. They tease you with some promising headlines, but in the end you haven't gained anything, because you cannot do more research somewhere else due to a lack of additional information. What really pisses me off though is that Google is deleting newspapers from its archive every now and then.

Talking about Google deleting stuff, you may want to watch this, before it is gone in a couple of days. And I may recommend to you the documentary "Instinto Asesino - La masacre de Pozzetto" which is, you might've guessed so already, about Campo Elias Delgado. You can watch it on youpoop; unfortunately it's in Spanish (or Portuguese, if you prefer that), and if your Spanish is as bad as mine, you won't understand too much of what they are talking about. But the filmed sequences speak for themselves, there's quite a bit of carnage for a documentary, and, big plus, they show a little bit of actual crime scene footage.

I've found out that Antonio Torchia is already listed, though his real name seems to be Antonio Niballi (at least that is the name reported by La Stampa, which also claims he killed his wife and four, not five, children). The Uxbridge murders are waiting for their inclusion for quite some time now, but I remember reading somewhere that this case might have been related to a robbery, so I have to do some more research on that one before adding it. And of course I remember Mrs. Gauthier. I've removed her last year, after finding sufficient evidence that her killings were of the serial type.

As for William Bonner, there's another picture here. I didn't dare to add it yet, because he is still alive, but since Martin Bryant got on as well, I might take the risk and do it anyway. Funny side note, American mass murderers are always portrayed as white middle class men, but if you take a look at those killings occurring prior to 1980 you'll see that many, not to say most, of them were committed by black people, and that's probably the reason why nobody remembers them, and why many people think mass shootings were either very rare or totally unheard of in the decades before. There is simply a major racial bias, even today, though it was a lot worse a hundred years ago, when there was only one reason for white people to show any interest in a black mass murderer, that is, when some of his victims were white. And then it was quickly declared a race riot, no matter how many blacks he killed.

I guess a Norwegian newspaper would have been one of the last places I'd look for a Filipino spree killer. And the Bon Jovi-Shirt, well, at least it adds a bit of variety to all those camouflage outfits and Marilyn Manson-T-Shirts.
As for Woody Drake, I've neglected him so far, likely because his body count isn't all that impressive, and the Google News Archive doesn't spit out a lot either. Maybe I should write a short article about him, just for the heck of it.
After talking about the similarities of the pictures of Oliveira and Cho, I've stumbled upon these two photos of John Hinckley. Looks somehow familiar, doesn't it? Too bad there isn't a book about him, I'd be interested to hear more about his background.

Finally a short note on the List of family slaughters. It is now number 43 on the long pages list, so it is time to prepare for a possible split. I'm not sure yet, but I've thought about outsourcing the US familicides into a separate page, because they make up almost half of the entire page. The List of spree killer will face a similar problem in the long run, but there I'm at a complete loss what to do with it. There's no easy way to splitting it, at least none I can think of, so it might be necessary someday to change the whole layout, e.g. by throwing the mass murderers and spree killers together and resorting them by continent: Americas, Europe, Africa, Asia, and Oceania, or something like that. Any suggestions? (Lord Gøn (talk) 15:36, 22 April 2011 (UTC))

Yes, I'm still here, but I've been busy the last couple of days, so I didn't have a lot of time to write a reply. More later. (Lord Gøn (talk) 21:07, 29 April 2011 (UTC))

Nothing mows down people like a semi-automatic crowbar

Mr. Derby now has found a place among his peers, though I have to ask, is Hill part of his family name, or did his parents really think that parts of the landscape would make totally awesome middle names? The other cases you've posted I still have to look into, before adding them.

You've probably noticed already that I have split the List of family slaughters, and created the List of familicides in the United States by number of victims, and I'd like to ask, if you'd prefer to see the states' names written out, or do you think we should keep the abbreviations? Other than that, I'm gonna mess around with that one for a while now, test a few things here and there, and make my mind about the unavoidable rework of the main list. I guess, I am going to rename it to List of rampage killers by number of victims, which I might've done in the first place, if the term rampage killer were defined sufficiently. But as it is DreamGuy-approved now, I think I can throw all my concerns overboard and use it anyway.

About forming a Yahoo-group, well, I am not familiar with Yahoo Groups, but it looks like most of the content there can only be watched by registered users or group members, which would be quite contrary to what I've intended when creating that list on Wikipedia. I actually don't want some sort of in-group revolving around mass murderers, although it would give you a lot more freedom to do and discuss whatever pleases you, but something everyone can take a look at. So, as long as there aren't hundreds of frenzied Wikipedians swarming in on the list like a horde of hungry locusts, trying to rip it apart and chew it into mush, I'd prefer to keep working here.

Finally a few pictures you might or might not have seen yet: Mauro Antonello (takes time to load), Friedrich Leibacher (in shorts), John Parish (all smiles), Robert Harrington (is there a crack in the floor?), Eugene Everette (wearing a neat hat), Zhang Qinhua (looking dumb, but still on the loose) and Antonio Manuel Saraiva Antunes (passport photo) (Lord Gøn (talk) 20:28, 30 April 2011 (UTC))

Vihaan Humppaa

TERRIBLE OUTRAGE:
Somebody has moved the List of mass murderers and spree killers without my permission! I'm going nuts! I must destroy somebody! I must do so NOW!

Ok, not really. Didn't even notice at first that it was moved at all, AND it's like a free pass to rename it later to the much shorter "List of rampage killers" without the little add "by number of victims". Though, before proceeding with the reshuffle a few details have to be discussed and fleshed out, and it would be nice to hear a second opinion about a few problems that have come up while I was thinking about it.
I begin to like the idea of sorting the killers by continent, but before that can be done, the borders of those continents have to be defined. It's quite easy for the Americas, because they are a rather detached land mass (well, Greenland might be a little bit problematic, as it belongs to Denmark), but the rest is just one big mess. Let's start with Europe, which is well defined to the west and south, but the east, where do we stop? Should we include all those post-Soviet republics like Armenia and Georgia, or even Kazakhstan and Uzbeskistan? What about Israel and Turkey which tend strongly towards Europe, and played a big role in its history? And if we'd include those two, wouldn't it be logical to go even further and add the whole Arabian Peninsula?
Africa has another problem. There are only about 50 entries, and that seems too few to me to warrant it's own list. And then there's the fact that Northern Africa has a lot in common with the Arab world, so should we extend Africa into Asia and include everything west of the Iranian, Aghani or Indian border? But that would create an overlap with the extended European borders, so would it be a practical solution to throw Europe, Africa and Arabia together?
And what should we do with Australia and New Zealand? There aren't a lot of cases in these two countries, so alone they can't hold up. One solution could be to create a list for Oceania, including Indonesia, the Philippines, and maybe Malaysia, even though they are more likey a part of Asia, but there are so many entries from these three countries that the Asian list might become too long anyway. And then there's the problem with mass murders on ships. Where to add them, especially when the ship was in the middle of an ocean at the time of the murders?

Now a short comment on the ordering of the murderers. Frank Lias has taken his place above Moritz Kaiser, because he has also wounded one person, while Kaiser did not. Danny Crump has wounded three, King Bell only one, therefore Crump is listed higher. In general, if death toll is the same, the one with with the higher number of wounded will be listed first. If the number of wounded is also equal the one that happened earlier will be listed first. It's that easy.

If you need birthdates, btw, I suggest to have a look at the ... eh, source code of the lists (press the "Edit this page" button), as I make use of the age-template, if I can find the DOB of the perpetrator.

Pictures of Chahal or Lynam seem to be hard to come by. At least I couldn't find any. Same goes for Erminio Criscione, though there might be at least a slight chance that one of them will surface someday. I wouldn't waste my time on Wilhelm Brückner though. The case is too obscure and at the time this was news German papers rarely, if ever printed any photographs. Angerstein might prove easier to find, because the case was actually a big story in the twenties and there is a book about him, which apparently is extremely rare, so I don't know if it includes any photos of him. I know that some newspapers have printed pictures of Clarence Bertucci, but all that I could find were of pretty low quality. Maybe I'll pick the best I can find and add it to his article later.

Here a few other pictures: David Burke, Ulysses Cribbs, Venus Chukamnerd, Mahmud Sueilem, Mohammed A. (censored), Serge Allafort (bad quality), Sergei Lepnev (first picture), Leslie Torrey same, Kiartipong Meksawat, same, Jose Marimon same same (beware: big pdf-files, to find pictures, search for Marimon)

I see you have uploaded a picture of Leo Held, and it will be deleted soon probably, so let me give you an advice for uploading non-free images, if you have any intention to do so again in the future. First, before uploading the picture create an article where you want to add it, as it will be deleted, if it isn't used anywhere. Second, fill out and add the two fair-use templates to the image description that have been used here. Then there shouldn't be any complaints and the image won't be deleted probably.

Finally a little note on your last section header. I've found that it was apparently a quote by Susan Cheever (whoever that is) translated into German. But if you allow me some nitpicking, translated back into English what you've written means:

Death is getting scared, because it is so ordinary. It happens all the time.

So, a better translation from the original would probably be

Der Tod ist so erschreckend, weil er so gewöhnlich ist. Er ist allgegenwärtig. or

Das Sterben ist so erschreckend, weil es so gewöhnlich ist. Es passiert andauernd.

May I ask what you had in mind when writing that? And why translating into German? (Lord Gøn (talk) 16:19, 3 May 2011 (UTC))

All my friends are dead

I have to admit that I haven't even heard of Susan Cheever before searching for that quote, so, no, I have not read one of her books. And to be honest, it seems that her writings aren't that kind of literature that usually attracts my interest, which makes it rather unlikely that this will ever change.

If you want to put your Swedish to the test here is a Finnish newspaper archive that also has quite a few Swedish papers. You could do me a favour and do a check on a guy named Titus Veski, who apparently killed seven people in Viborg in 1902. I think I remember having done some research on him one or two years ago, finding that the reason behind the murders was to cover up a robbery, but I'm not sure anymore. Too many names to remember them all. Another one you might want to have a look at is Axel Nehrman who stabbed several people in Stockholm in 1901. Most articles report one person killed and five others wounded, though others mentioned up to twenty wounded.

A short note on your new findings: Corporal Seenda had been part of the list for quite a while, until I found that French newspapers were reporting only three people killed. It happens quite often that papers abroad exaggerate the death toll, e.g. just yesterday I've added a woman named Rosa Rufo, who had lured a dozen children into her house and then threw eight of them down a well. British newspapers reported all eight being dead, while Spanish newspapers stated that two of them survived and were rescued. I did add Darnley, as it was rather clear that a murder-suicide had occurred, though I had to omit the first name, as it remained uncertain, who actually opened the gas tap. Arthur Sherod on the other hand is a rather difficult case, as he was sentenced to only three years for reckless driving. I don't know, if this was the only possible way to send him to prison at all, but in a similar case in 2001 a woman named Judy Kirby was convicted for murder. So, going by the verdict, I'd be hard pressed to make the judgment that Sherod willfully killed his family. Sure, he was reported to have threatened to do it, but then, he was also drunk, so it could still have been a mere accident.

About the reorganization of the list: I would've put Greenland to the Americas, because on the map it doesn't really belong to Europe. And with about 90 of 115 cases being from the US the America-list will be pretty one-sided, so anything should be welcome that adds a little bit of variety. Oceania would, besides Australia and New Zealand, encompass all those little islands in the Pacific, like Tuvalu, Vanuatu or Micronesia, though I'd also add the Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia, despite the fact that they are part of Southeast Asia.

Finally, I can't help it, but to me George Hassell looks like an early incarnation of [5]. Here is another picture of Jose Suarez, who must be one lucky bastard to get away with a sixfold murder, despite confessing to have committed it. And here are two short videos about the Aramoana massacre, showing a few pictures of Gray's house and his body lying on the grass. French mass murderer Paul Ughetto, right in the centre of the page, Günter Hermann Ewen, Jean-Pierre Roux-Durraffourt, and Ahmed Mansour. And here a strange story from Brazil. (Lord Gøn (talk) 16:13, 7 May 2011 (UTC))

Trials of flesh

Sorry for answering so late, but I am doing lots of stupid stuff lately that is consuming way too much of my time. Preparations for the upcoming rework of the list are advancing and I'll probably go ahead with it this weekend. Hopefully the end result will be an improvement to the current layout and appease some of its critics.

A few short notes on your last findings. If you are interested in a more detailed account of Upendra Biswas' shooting spree here are a few of articles: [6][7][8] It seems that his wife had survived the assault on her life, so the final toll probably was five dead, one injured.
Regarding William Edward Coleman, well, I am not too surprised that I haven't heard of him so far. Generally I'm searching for arson cases only very sporadically, as it is often quite difficult to make sure that a fire wasn't accidental; and the follow-up reporting isn't the best either most of the time, especially when it happened in some foreign country. Overall I think pure acts of arson aren't really comparable to rampage killings with guns or knives, which is why (familicides aside) I dump them all in the "other notable incidents" category, even though there might be some borderline cases, bearing many similarities with shooting sprees and the like. So, in that category 12 dead isn't all that impressive anymore, and therefore not notable enough in my opinion to warrant inclusion. (yes, I know that other cases with a comparable number of victims are included, but those might disappear in the not too distant future)
The story of the servant who killed his master and family likely is one of greed and robbery, at least to me 100,000 francs seem to be a big enough amount of money to goad someone into committing a mass murder, and as the article doesn't give any indication that there might've been another motive that one too has to fall flat.
Regarding Elijah Morton, it seems that, while having murdered several people previously according to some newspapers, he killed only four persons that day. The New York Times here and here, and others as well, reported that two of those he shot were wounded.
I have added John Wychopen, as you have probably seen. If you need some more information on that case I might be able to provide it. Apparently he had an affair with a stepdaughter. Your blog looks quite interesting and I'll take a look every now and then, I don't know though how I could contribute anything to it.

Before ending with another bunch of pictures, I'd like to get your opinion on the following case. It's the one of Earnest Lawrence (Ernest according to other sources) and for the last two or three years I'm undecided, if I should add it or not. If you'd take your time to read the following articles, you'll see why it is so problematic. [9][10][11][12]

Now it's picture time: Robert Haggart, Khoua Her, James Ruppert, Abdu Ahmed Mohammed Nasser Al Harazi, Idrus bin Hassan, Stephen Lawrence Anderson, Barend Strydom has written a book, Harvey McLeod (bad quality), Kathryn Schoch and if you can bear watching German news from 1990 you can get a picture of Ami Popper (report starts at 06:30, Popper seen at 07:42). And finally a picture of Joseph Wesbecker (well, it's the one that is all over the internet, but in better quality and in colour)
Pictures of Jonathan Moreno apparently are unavailable, and not even the Chester Times printed one of Melvin Collins, so he too has to remain unimaged. But Cevdet Yilmaz can be found here and here. (Lord Gøn (talk) 17:29, 27 May 2011 (UTC))

Suicide calculator

Phew, the rework of the list is pretty much complete now, still needs some fine tuning, but the rough work is done. I don't know yet, if the result is good enough to be better than the original (it certainly is quite different), but even if anyone might think it's worse than before, you'd have to shoot me to switch back. It simply consumed too much of my time, way more than I expected, just to find out in the end that it was all a waste. Well, at least the lists are much smaller now, so there won't be a necessity to split them again in the near future, and they are quite a bit easier to work with, because you don't have to care anymore about the mass vs. spree inconsistencies. Though there seem to be a few who miss the old layout.

Oh, Wacky World of Murder, it's really old (for a website) and hasn't been updated for many many years - a wonder it's still online - but it still holds a special place in my heart, simply because it's one of those pages (along with massmurder.zyns.com and mayhem.net) that at least tried to record mass murders around the world before Wikipedia became big. And it was quite useful when I started this project here. If I may recommend an article: Read the one on the Alexander family, it's totally fucked up (and true, I've double-checked a German newspaper on the case).

I know that John Peel looks very much like the prime suspect for the murders on the "Investor", but there must be a reason why he was acquitted twice. Throughout the trial he always maintained to have nothing to do with the murders (unlike Harold Bordner or Owen Oberst, who were also acquitted, but only after recanting their initial confession), so there's not a lot to work with and pinpoint him as the killer. Maybe this book has some hints and clues that could shed some light on the matter, or maybe something unexpected happens and the case will be solved after so many years. But probably it will remain just another unsolved mystery until nobody remembers it anymore.

If you manage to obtain a picture of Gilbert Twigg, I'd be very glad to see it. Having committed the first major mass shooting by a white man in the US (at least of the ones I could track down) I've spent quite some time to find information on him, but pictures I found none unfortunately. Nor did I find any of Basudev Thapa, not even when I wrote the article about his little temple shooting a couple of years ago. About Benoist, well, there is this rather goofy photo of him. Probably not what you were looking for, but regarding quality it's the best I could find. Other than that here are photos of Lorne Acquin (yet another one), James Griffiths, Guo Zhongmin (bottom), Yan Jianzhong and Marciano Contaoe. And if you are interested here three drawings of James Stone [13][14][15].

A short question, where did you find that comic-style article about Verlin Spencer? It looks like a pretty obscure way of reporting on a mass murder, or anything else, and I'd really like to see a bigger version of it. (Lord Gøn (talk) 23:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC))

Yep

As it stands it probably is the worst mass murder by a single individual in known human history (maybe they'll find accomplices, though it looks like the work of a single man to me) It will be interesting to hear what motives he had for pulling this show off, but no matter the why, the how was, in one word, excellent. Sorry, if this sounds nastily enthusiastic in the face of so many dead, but the more I think about this, the more I find the plan behind the attacks extremely sophisticated. I have to admit that I am not very savvy in Norwegian politics, so I have no idea why anyone should commit something like this out of political reasons. Maybe it will turn out to be the crime of a really pissed off right-wing nationalist person or group, trying to assassinate Stoltenberg and dealing a heavy blow to his party by destroying a great deal of its political youth. But I would have to ask why would anyone do this? Is Stoltenberg so far left and his politics so frightening that any right-winger might see him as a threat to the Norwegian nation? I dunno, but I don't deem it likely.

So, I wouldn't be surprised the least, if they'd find out that there wasn't actually a strong political motive behind the attacks, (too many rampage killers lean to the right, without politics being their motive) and that it was more or less the work of a narcissistic madman, who felt compelled to be Norways first and the world's worst rampage killer. Looking at the details you find some really interesting connections to other mass murders, which makes me belive that he wasted quite some time studying them. The bombing might be inspired by the Oklahoma City bombing. Breivik wore a fake police uniform, as did Friedrich Leibacher in Zug, and Woo Bum-kon also used his police outfit to his advantage. And the location of the shooting, a tiny island with hundreds of unarmed people and no police nearby (could there be any better place to commit a mass shooting with no other goal than massive casualties?), reminds me of the Port Arthur massacre.

So, if you look at it at this way, as a thought out rampage killing going for maximum publicity and victims, the plan would've been outstanding.
Bombing government building (might kill president = instant historical significance) - divert police forces to site of the bombing - drive to remote island some 60 miles away - have a good time shooting hundreds of sitting ducks with no way to escape until police finally catches up with you. Sounds like a heck of a plan. And feasable. (At least to me, but I might be biased)

But, one thing irks me a lot, that doesn't fit into my little guesswork-scenario: the guy is still alive. Though there might be many reasons why he didn't kill himself (running out of bullets, being subdued by police one way or another, wanting to live to see all the media attention he gains), I would not expect anyone to want to stay alive too long after shooting a hundred people dead. Well, time will tell - probably that I'm wrong, but anyway. (Lord Gøn (talk) 13:51, 23 July 2011 (UTC))

Well, well, well

This guy apparently has not only worked out his attack plan in great detail, but also his ideology, writing and compiling a 1,518 page long book with the title "2083 - A European Declaration of Independence", which can be found online. Additionally there's this video on youtube, supposedly also by Breivik. Taking a look at this probably might help a lot to get into his mind. Fortunately his thoughts seem a lot more coherent than those of Jared Loughner. (Lord Gøn (talk) 21:59, 23 July 2011 (UTC))

Ok, I guess it's fairly clear now that I was wrong with the assumption that the attacks were not politically motivated, so it probably would be appropriate to move Breivik from the European to the Hate crimes list. Your thoughts? Btw, his book is quite revealing. Even though I've skimmed mostly the parts about his life, his preparations and his self-interview so far I now have a way better understanding of what motivated him. I also can see, why he didn't kill himself; thinking he is a martyr, fighting for a just cause. (Lord Gøn (talk) 16:53, 24 July 2011 (UTC))

A drum, a drum!

Suppose I came too late, someone else moved him already. But no matter who did it, Breivik is where he fits best atm.

BTW, I've seen a few posts, mostly in blogs and forums, that mentioned this being the worst spree killing, some of them also providing a link to the list. The person writing this article apparently also paid it a visit, just look at the box named "Fakta om hatangrep", especially the victims numbers. Where else would they get those ranges? This one has the same list, but removed the ranges and gave exact numbers (I doubt that they are correct, though).

Regarding those supposed cells, well, I really don't know. I could guess though. Overall it's a pretty bad idea to give a diagnosis without actually having a personal look at the subject, but for the moment let's do it anyway. So, I see some tendencies in his manifesto that to me indicate that he might suffer from a narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). People with NPD do have a tendency to present themselves in the best possible light, and it apparently was very important to him, to look good in the newspapers (therefore taking care to leak his own promo-photos to the public; reportedly he also got his face fixed surgically). The problem with people suffering from NPD is that they lie whenever it suits them. And by that I mean they lie a lot. You can never be sure that a guy like that tells you the truth, ever. So, everything Breivik writes in his book or tells the police could be total bullshit. Some of it might be true, some of it might be totally overblown and exaggerated, while on other occasions he might leave out crucial information that might cast a shadow on his character, and parts of it might be made up completely.

Some of the most crucial parts of his manifesto e.g. look totally outlandish to me, and the worst thing is, they are probably pretty much impossible to be verified. It starts out with that group, the Knights Templars, he supposedly belongs to, and the fact that he calls himself a Justiciar Knight Commander. Also that secret meeting between him and a Serbian war hero in Monrovia. I mean, seriously, who'd believe that story? So, I deem it possible that he made that up all by himself to give his deed some fancy background.

I've read an article in a newspaper where a psychologists said there might be similiarities to Franz Fuchs, an Austrian who sent several letter bombs in the name of a group called "Bajuwarische Befreiungsarmee", whose only member was he himself. It might be the same with Breivik and the Knights Templars. What speaks against this theory though is that police reportedly is catching an increased number of posts of people claiming to be part of that organisation, so I don't know. Maybe he just wants to keep police busy by claiming there are more like him, maybe he thinks others will follow his way more easily, if he claims there's more to come, or maybe it's true. Time will tell.

According to one report I've seen Breivik told police he would give them more information about these cells, if they'd hand him a computer with a) his manifesto and b) access to Wikipedia. AFAIK he still wasn't told how many people he has killed, so probably he's in desperate need to look it up (and see if he's number one on the rampage killers-list. ;) Not too far fetched to think he knows it, considering that he used Wikipedia quite a bit for his manifesto). (Lord Gøn (talk) 02:09, 28 July 2011 (UTC))

ArbCom elections are now open!

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Nomination of Laura Scales for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Laura Scales is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Laura Scales until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Newshunter12 (talk) 14:38, 20 July 2020 (UTC)