Talk:Population groups in Israel
"everyone belongs to one of the religious groups for this purpose (generally the traditional one for their family). "
I don't want to "belong" to any religious group and neither did my parents. If I lived in Israel how would I get to "belong" to some group? Perhaps some government official would research the religions of my grandparents and assign me one of those?
- Perhaps someone better acquainted with this issue will correct me, but my understanding is that people can choose one of the non-Jewish classifications more or less freely but some evidence is needed in order to get classified as a Jew. Moreover, even if the state gives you an ID card with "Jewish" on it, your background can still be investigated if you want to get married or something like that and you may be refused permission if something amiss is discovered. --Zero 14:05, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- If I wanted "something like that" and "something amiss is discovered" by the lady involved, I guess I would be "refused permission". :>)
- I wanted to know more about this but what little information there was has now been deleted.
- I created a page for the Chief Rabbinate of Israel (just containing an external link to a US govt. doc.) but it has also been deleted. --anon
- That is because if you want to create an article, a solitary external link is not sufficient. It doesn't qualify as an article and is therefore deleted. --snoyes 18:47, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- I'm a newbie, but after some research I see that this is "actively discouraged" ==? "deleted". But I would still like to see more about the religious laws in Israel especially relating to non-Jews.
There are a few things in the article I am not sure are correct.
Israeli law also allows the immediate non-Jewish family of immigrants to immigrate
--I think that this is a ministerial standing order rather than a law. The immigration law (not the L of R) says that the responsible government minister can allow persons to immigrate other than those specified in the L of R, and family members are given such permission according to rules stated by the minister. Recently some Palestinian family members were explicitly excluded by law. Both these things should be in the article after checking.
it is a deliberately wider, so as to include those non-Jewish relatives of Jews who were perceived to be Jewish, and thus faced anti-Semitism.
--I'd like to see evidence that this was ever the reason. My understanding is that it was just a matter of allowing families to stay together, which would obviously be a popular sentiment. No other explanation is required.
--Zero 14:05, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)
In fact, you are right, and not in all cases. This standing order was made with regard to immigrants arriving after the collapse of the Soviet Union. There are, however, problems, particularly with regard to the Falash Mura of Ethiopia, some of whom have immediate relations in Israel, but whose immigration is being hindered (and I am being generous here). As for your second point, while anti-Semitism has occasionally been cited as a reason by the Hebrew-language press, the main factor was, as you mentioned, family reunification. Some simple corrections are therefore in order: In many instances, Israel also allows the immediate non-Jewish family of immigrants to immigrate, and just cut out the bit of anti-Semitism so that it reads ''it is a deliberately wider, so as to include those non-Jewish relatives of Jews who were perceived to be Jewish. Danny 14:28, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Just to clarify this, the Law of Return itself includes the children and grandchildren of Jews, and the spouses of those. The discussion above relates to other close relatives such as parents and siblings. --Zero 14:44, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Agreed. Thanks for clarifying. Some things I just take for granted ... :) It is interesting that a lot of the Law of Return is a response to Nuremberg definitions, and therefore tends to mimic them. (Oh, boy, was that controversial ...). Danny 14:49, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- That is what I said to begin with! Germany's infamous Nuremberg laws did not only target Jews. They also targeted non-Jewish relatives of Jews, as Germans perceived them to be Jews. Thus, to save such people from later anti-Semitic persecutions, the State of Israel effectively said that "We don't care if you are Jewish are according to Jewish law; if you are persecuted as a Jew because you are related to Jews, we will give you a home to be safe in." RK 15:06, Nov 23, 2003 (UTC)
- How such people should be handled once they get to the State of Israel is another issue. Obviously, we shouldn't allow Hitler or other Jew haters to tell us who is, and who isn't a Jew. It is up to the Jewish community to define its own parameters. Also, many of these people do not identify as Jews, and fewer observe Judaism as a religion. It seems to me that it would be wrong to force such an identity upon them without their consent. RK 15:06, Nov 23, 2003 (UTC)
Beyond the first paragraph these topics are discussed on the Jews page (except for the Israeli legal definition which should be added there). --anon So I would like to move the "Israeli legal definition" to the Jews page and the remainder (beyond the first paragraph) to the Talk:Jew page with a suggestion that any non-redundant information be blended in to the Jews page.
- I disagree. Some duplication of material is unavoidable, and desirable, in encyclopedia articles. Many Wikipedia (and Britannica) articles have some modest amount of information overlap. It is necessary so that article do not become overly fragmented. Wikipedia is not paper; we have infinite space. It is Ok is two paragraphs are duplicated! RK 01:32, Nov 25, 2003 (UTC)
- "Some duplication of material is unavoidable, and desirable". Possibly, but this is a very small article. The first paragraph is redundant with Demographics of Israel, two are redundant with "Who is a Jew" under Jews and the remainder logically belongs there and would not overly fragment anything. Presumably we are doing this for the benefit of an (uninformed) reader who does not want to wade through infinite redundant cruft. Why have separate pages for "Population Groups" and "Demographics"?