Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/CYNF

This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was - deleted - SimonP 14:47, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

CYNF

Although it tries to look like an article, the first sentence is pure marketing-speak. 376 hits on Google for "CYNF", and nearly all of them are false positives. Delete ad. -- Cyrius|✎ 06:21, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Please read notes in discussion segment before acting upon this recommendation. If a rewrite is needed, let me know however the basis for this article in the first sentences were the Friendster ones, if you want to delete these should you not get the Friendster ones changed also.

• Comment, I feel that as long as these social networking sites or places are notable enough, and their articles are not deliberately POV, then they can stay. See also Myspace. -- Riffsyphon1024 07:12, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

Hi,

I am Andrew Venn, co-founder of CYNF.

I have since edited the first lines of the article to make it sound less marketing speak, hope this addresses the key concern.

In relation to CYNF I do believe that an entry is valuable because CYNF represents a unique use of social networks and has some features not seen elsewhere:

1. Asymetrical mapping of relationships 2. Use of network distance to control release of information (ie. in this case asset availability information) 3. The linking of Assets to social networks 4. Creation of virtual libraries based upon social networks.

The organisation is relatively new, and not marketed heavily and has not employed SEO people. It has had rather organic growth to date and so I am not suprised that there is little on Google. That said we were invited last week to demo our product at Microsoft's Social Computing Symposium 2005 being held in April. Being based in Australia, makes it a costly exercise so it is unlikely at this stage that we will attend. We also have local organisations that have shown significant interest and one in partuclar wants us to customise a site for us for musicians to share equipment.

If you have time have a look at the site, and I am willing to continue the discussion via my e-mail andrew.venn@cynf.com

--07:39, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)~ PS: How can I please a vote?

• • Voting is only counted by those logged into Wikipedia. -- Riffsyphon1024 07:47, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
    • Thank you for being helpful Steven. I agree with your reference to MySpace, I was not trying to do more than add some information that I am an expert on (having designed it) into Wikipedia. I will now endevour to get an account, hope it is easy!

Further changes made with the inclusion of a graphic denoting how the virtual library is constructed. Let me know if this is now satisfactory. AndrewCYNF 09:20, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. Advertising. The image is copyrighted, as well. Released so long as the attribution is maintained, but we can't guarantee that forks will do that. RickK 09:34, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
  • Attribution is required even under Wikipedia's default GFDL. It's the "not modified in any manner" that is undesirable. -- Cyrius|✎ 16:04, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If CYNF's entry is advertising what of the following?

MySpace...

Myspace (or MySpace) is a free service that uses the internet for online communication through an interactive network of photos, weblogs, user profiles, e-mail, web forums, groups, as well as many other communication devices. This all-inclusive service is sometimes called a social networking interface. It is an active site always updating or creating new features for their members. Myspace is also sometimes used to describe a user created webpage on the Myspace.com service.

Tribe

Tribe.net (often shortened to "Tribe") is a website that hosts a online community of friends, similar to Orkut or Friendster. Anyone may register as a new Tribe user, and may then define his or her immediate network of friends, either by choosing from existing members or by inviting new members to join. Each of these users may in turn define their own network of friends. (This process results in a type of user-driven viral marketing on behalf of Tribe.net.)

How are these any different. Given that these are there, how is it they are acceptable but ours not? Hell MySpace even goes as far as to put a graphic of their homepage. What about that for advertising?! What is it in particular that you do not like. Please be more specific. What sentence, what phrase, what elements. Because I am not seeing the difference between this entry and those sighted above. We are happy to make changes, but please give us some direction.

After all any information disemination could be labelled advertising. The question is, is this trying to inform or sell. I do not see this entry as a sales pitch, if you want to see sales pitches I can point you at those. We have not even mentioned that the service is free because we thought that was "advertising". We just believe that if an entry is given to Friendster, Orkut, LinkedIn, etc. etc. then we should be included with our peers. Especially as we are offering something of real value that is free. What about you have a look at the site?

As for the graphic, what do you want us to do? It is an illustration of the concept. Of course we are happy for it to be displayed on your site, but having it modified or co-opted by others as their work is hardly right. If it becomes a problem we will pull it. Which lessens the content that if offered to your users. I think the intention of the tagging process is one of making sure the authors of the articles do not steal or misrepresent work as their own. This is our work, our post so please explain the problem for me.

I must admit that for all the press about this being an open effort, it seems that there are far too many problems in entering information. There so far has been no comment about whether the entry is worthwhile in the first place, whether CYNF is valuable and should have an entry. The discussion has been purely about semantics of the entry. It is easy for people to critique others work but so far I have not seen one constructive suggestion. We are happy to make changes, but give us more direction.

Best regards, AndrewCYNF 218.214.164.25 17:24, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• • I happen to know the person who uploaded the image to the Myspace article. It wasn't a promotion however, but a screenshot depiction of a typical page. I was the main contributor to the article, mainly because I have a profile at Myspace, him also. However, my intentions were not to promote it, but simply state that it existed, as many things here are stated in NPOV. Also note that neither of us founded the site ourselves. Had the creator started the article, then suspicion would arise against him. -- Riffsyphon1024 19:39, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete ad - David Gerard 17:32, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Please check the deletion policy, what things are not reasons for deletion, consider whether you are actually wanting the article merged, expanded or cleaned up rather than deleted. Use the appropriate mechanism instead of VFD.

• From WP:DP:

Vanity page, Adversiting or other spam: List on Votes for deletion

In terms of things that are not reasons for deletion, the reasons listed here are not among them. Delete advert. Chris 18:19, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Delete as vanity. Radiant_* 18:56, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete as shades of vanity, advert, and/or non-notable. I would dispute the claim that Friendster, Orkut, and LinkedIn are this company's 'peers', as each of those clears 200,000 Google hits—right now, CYNF seems to be a very small fish in a very big Internet. --TenOfAllTrades | Talk 01:13, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, advertising, spam, non-notable. I've read the remarks below. It's all very easy: when CYNF is clearly notable we will need an article on it. If AndrewCYNF's judgement is correct, that should not be very long. But in the meantime, Wikipedia is not Wired and does not try to inform its readers of "memes on the rise." Dpbsmith (talk) 02:07, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

To answer people's questions and statements:

Riffsyphon I apologise if I offended I was merely try to point out that my page, put up against those others, doesn't read much differently. I chose to be honest and make it clear who I was it seems that I am being punished for that. I agree that suspicion should arise, but the article should be judged on its content and subject. So I am confused as to why it is not just being re-edited as opposed to VFD

Others

It is not a vanity page.

We have not spammed wikipedia by dumping CYNF links on the friendster & myspace entries. Or asked our members or friends to vote or write entries for us.

As for advertising - tell me what to change. If the graphic is what offends then let me know what you want different. We do not even say that entry is free. We do not put our logo on the page, the graphic is not even from the website, it was created simply to describe the concept. Yes I am the co-founder, but felt that I have been very careful. The article talks about the concept.

As for non-notable, is size the criteria for notable/non-notable? In which case, do you want this encyclopedia to be able to provide information on nascent organisations or not? We are the only ones doing this anywhere and if people actually took time to see what the site has to offer then I think you would agree that what we are doing is at least interesting. No one anywhere is using social networks and combining it with lending and asset management or brought in the concept of trust into the equation.

If size is the sole criteria then show me where it says so and I will debate no more.

As for peers, in the last month we have been asked to demo our site/product at Microsoft's Social Computing Symposium 2005 held in April. If we can get invited to show our product at this symposium along with others then I think that we are entitled to use the word peer in relation to social networking/computing.

And yes, we are expected to make mistakes, we are new to this and so far it has been less than a pleasant experience.

AndrewCYNF 218.214.164.25 03:18, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Comment. Andrew, it's not (supposed to be) personal. The sometimes-terse shorthand on this VfD page can seem rude to new Wikipedians, but usually the result of a desire for efficiency rather than deliberate incivility.

Right now, CYNF seems to be a company that very few people have heard of, and is without significant recognition on the Internet. The existence of the acronym YASNS (yet another social networking system) and the very long list of companies in the field in our article on social networks suggests that there are a lot of players in the field, each of whom believe their product contributes something unique and fills some niche. Wikipedia tends to report on notoriety; we don't like to be responsible for building it. A lot of organizations (not necessarily yours) have noticed that a very effective way to build Google recognition is through the creation of Wikipedia articles, so we tend to be very wary of small companies that haven't already gained a lot of public attention.

I would also ask you to examine your motives in adding the article. If it's not to advertise or build buzz for your company, then why? If you would like to share information about trust-based social networks, perhaps it would be appropriate to add a section to the social network article, or to create articles on specific topics related to your technology. If you can cite peer-reviewed journal articles, so much the better.

A last point—have you considered creating a Wikipedia user account? It's very quick, and it might make it easier to keep some of this lengthy discussion off an already-large VfD page. Cheers, TenOfAllTrades | Talk 05:53, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC), amended 15:43, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC) (my mistake) TenOfAllTrades | Talk.

• Delete. Not notable. android↔talk 05:18, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Advert. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:12, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Keep--Irishpunktom\^talk 14:12, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

TenOfAllTrades, thank you for your response. Perhaps I am a little testy. I understand people's concern regarding entries such as these from start-ups. But we have been around for 12 months now and are taking a rather laid back approach to marketing generally (although this was not an attempt to market). I understand the page ranking process of Google, but understood that Google bought out a tag so that references could be made to sites that you didn't want to "vote" for and naturally assumed that was the case here (as it is on many blogging sites). If the link to CYNF at the bottom is a problem then I am happy to remove it. If we were chasing linkage we would have done it a year ago. In fact it was not on the original post. And on top of that what we offer is for free, it is not like we are advertising viagra. Although the responses made me feel I might have been.

If you have a look at the social networking page, I had edited it and mentioned what is unique about our concept. This too was removed (and on reflection was too markety, if such a word exists). I must admit to sounding like a marketter from time to time because it is a new concept and I am probably too close to the topic.

We believe what we have is unique and significant enough to rate a mention. If we wanted to list purely for advertisment purposes we would have do so a year ago, but we waited until we got a significant nod, like the interest from Microsoft. Only then did we feel it was an appropriate time to make an entry. If nothing more than to let people know of a new application for social networking.

What I would ask is other than volume what have the other sites got to offer beyond the "dating" concept in one form or another.

I can tell you why CYNF is unique, but whatever I do it will come across as advertising:

CYNF is the first application of its kind that takes social networking to another level. It has the following very unique features:

1. Linking social networking to asset lending and management (we also have a business to business site, but did not think that was appropriate to mention)

2. Use of trust and levels of trust within a social network to control access to information (in this case lendable assets)

3. Asymetric trust within social networks

On top of that what I did not mention in the article as we felt these were selling points, it is free, works for all types of assets, DVDs, CDs, Games and so on... has warranty reminding, overdue loan reminders, calendarisation of all assets, full loan tracking, recommend to friend features, multiple locations, downloadable spreadsheets with valuations suitable for insurance companies, a sell/swap feature to enable you to swap or sell items privately within your social network, 128 bit encryption on login, server side scripted PHP / MySQL code, hand-coded, housed in a bulletproof, ram proof, datacentre with fingerprint ID, hi res closed circuit cameras, dual CISCO redundant firewalls, off site mirroring to two separate locations, we don't ask for full names or locations, we are developing mobile capabilities, barcode scanning and so much more. ;-)

If it is volume and buzz that we need first then doesn't this tool you are all creating just become the vox pop of encyclopedias? I would suggest that obscure artists would be included but would not have over 2,000 people signed up.

I don't know what to do from here, I felt the article was more on the topic of social networking and our unique take on it than pushing ourselves. We felt it was worthy of mention as there is no other site on your list that uses a social network in the manner we do, with the underlying trust model as shown in the diagram. It kinda like a side entry on philips screwdrivers that says, and Phillips invented the another type of screwdriver that had benefits because.

Perhaps, as one of the other voters put it, we should just come back when we have made it and in the meantime be satisfied with being listed here with all the rest YASNs. But I can not help but feel our only difference to that of the MySpace or Friendster pages is that we do not have the volume of theirs, even though we are actually bringing new techniques to social networking not seen before.

By the way for your interest this concept was first created by us in 2000 and refined in 2001 before even Friendster was on the scene.

Best regards,

218.214.164.25 09:07, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC) AndrewCYNF 09:10, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC) (Sorry session expired - I was logged in.)

• Lobster Thermidor a Crevette with a mornay sauce served in a Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines garnished with truffle pate, brandy and with a fried egg on top and spam. Delete. - Mike Rosoft 13:02, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:01, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, vanity, non-notable. VladMV ٭ ^talk 18:06, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Delete vanity CDC (talk) 19:43, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Delete - The author of the Article has removed the text of this article and requests the node be removed. My apologies to all, it was not my intent to use this great resource as marketing and honestly felt that what we are doing in this space is worthy of note but we certainly do not condone any spam. We recognise everyone's POV regarding whether we are note worthy at this time and defer to the majority of respondees. Thank you for your time. Best regards, AndrewCYNF 218.214.164.25 15:47, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC) (again apologies for some reason I could not log in)
  • Even though it seems this will be deleted, you cannot blank the page yourself until Vfd has been completed. I have reverted you. -- Riffsyphon1024 17:22, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.