Talk:Duke of Edinburgh

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Biography: Peerage and Baronetage

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Inheritability[edit]

There's nothing in the cited source (royal.uk) that says that the title will not be inherited by Edward's heirs, so I have deleted that line from the article. Rojomoke (talk) 10:39, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a BBC source for it. But it's unclear to me how this is legally possible, as the Life Peerages Act 1958 does not allow for non-hereditary Dukedoms, only Baronies.2A01:599:218:9AD7:247F:50ED:BBEF:B7FB (talk) 12:10, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@2A01:599:218:9AD7:247F:50ED:BBEF:B7FB Presumably they can do it by adding a special remainder to that effect in the letters patent. It's unprecedented, but presumably not impossible HIGHFIELDS (TALK) 12:58, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There have been several life dukedoms in the past. In Scotland it was once usual, when a peeress in her own right married someone of lower rank, to give him a title matching hers for life. At least one royal mistress was made a duchess for life. —Tamfang (talk) 06:16, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Make that at least two. —Tamfang (talk) 07:09, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

royal.uk doesn't directly say it is a life peerage, and under current rules it can not be done without a act of parliament and still gazette is not issued. Chamika1990 (talk) 12:16, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's true that a peerage, once created, cannot be modified but by act of Parliament; but in creating it the Crown can constrain or expand the succession nearly whatever way it likes, by replacing the usual formula "the heirs of his body lawfully begotten" in the document creating the title. —Tamfang (talk) 06:24, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure all our questions will be answered in time. But regarding the legality, if the letters patent omit the phrase "and the heirs male of his body lawfully begotten" then it simply won't be inherited? The creation of the Earl of Burma shows that the King can deviate from the usual formula without an Act of Parliament. --Mgp28 (talk) 13:00, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In 1726 George I has not used the phrase "heirs male of his body lawfully betton" to create his grandson Frederick, Duke of Edinburgh. But we can see from other sources that later that Frederick's son inherited the title as of default remainder. The King can deviate remainder at the time of creation. But can not be changed once created. Chamika1990 (talk) 02:32, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The letters patent are now listed in the Gazette[1]. They use the phrase "...for life the dignity of Duke of Edinburgh" --Mgp28 (talk) 19:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your view on this. The Sovereign is open to all sorts of variations in the way a peerage title may be inherited, either by the usual way you mention, or indeed opening the succession to females (such was the case with the Earldom of Mountbatten of Burma). Even more variations can be seen in the creation of the Dukedom of Marlborough, which makes this title unlikely to become extinct. Either way, it does not require an Act of Parliament to vary the way a peerage may be inherited or not.Ds1994 (talk) 13:12, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For a wilder variation in succession, see Earl of Selkirk. —Tamfang (talk) 06:35, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Life Peerages existed even before 1958, although they were usually granted to females, and as others have said, the key is what the remainder of the peerage is. The last time that this was done was in the mid-19th century to create Baron Wensleydale, although a dispute over his right to sit in the Lords meant that an entirely notional hereditary peerage was then conferred (he had no sons to inherit in any case). I see no reason that a creation for his lifetime only would be irregular, as the effect of the 1958 Act was NOT to allow for Life Peerages, but to allow life peers created under that Act to sit in the Lords (overturning the Wensleydale precedent). As such, it appears that this will be a life peerage that does NOT carry a right to sit in the Lords. 213.105.55.131 (talk) 13:34, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also agreed. I think I can also recall some instances in the later medieval period where peerages were awarded for life only. I can't recall the exact titles involved but the principle remains the same. So it seems that creating life peerages of any of the five ranks of nobility are entirely possible. On a more practical level it does solve the problem of any proliferation of royal dukedoms in the second generation, and subsequent non royal dukedoms in future generations.Ds1994 (talk) 13:42, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. Would this be the first time a Royal Ducal title couldn't be inherited by a legitimate son? GoodDay (talk) 01:05, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think, in 1937 former King Edward VIII created Duke of Windsor in same manner even without subsidiary titles. There was no letters patent issued in normal manner with remainder. As he has no children it was not a case Chamika1990 (talk) 03:22, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's very interesting; if you can confirm, do add it to our article Duke of Windsor, which now says, "As the Duke died without issue, the title became extinct upon his death." —Tamfang (talk) 06:30, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Significance of Sturgeon's forthcoming resignation[edit]

The material sourced from the Telegraph (behind a pay wall) that "the announcement of the resignation of the pro-independence Scottish leader Nicola Sturgeon... made it possible for the dukedom,... to be granted to Edward, who is otherwise "arguably too far down the line of succession to hold a title of such constitutional (and political) significance" may make sense if the quote is provided but does not as it stands. I don't know if NS can block the grant but she's still in office. Presumably the expectation would be that any successor to her is likely to have a similar viewpoint. Does the source state that "A staunchly nationalist prime minister would be opposed to Edward being duke of their capital because Edward is fairly insignificant" or is that interpretation? The implication that unionists would be happier with a perceived dud than someone from a (nominally royalist) pro-independence party doesn't stack up. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:48, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Camilla Tominey quotes from The Telegraph article:

"Another thing had also happened in the intervening period: the rise of the Scottish National Party. With the Union hanging in the balance, was it really the right decision to give the Edinburgh dukedom to someone descending fast down the royal ranking? Why not confer the title on the Princess Royal, a trusted royal trouper whose love of Scotland is well known?"

"It should not go unnoticed that this announcement came just weeks after Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland’s First Minister, announced her resignation. With the prospect of Scottish independence now looking less likely, there is far less risk in making the trusty Wessexes the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh for now, if not forever."

DDMS123 (talk) 19:12, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, in which case, what is being said is subtly different, I believe, so alternatively: According to Camilla Tominey of The Daily Telegraph, there had been concerns regarding the effect that ”giv(ing) the Edinburgh dukedom to someone descending fast down the royal ranking” would have on the Scottish independence debate. She proposes that “the prospect of Scottish independence now looking less likely” in the light of Nicola Sturgeon’s forthcoming resignation made the conferral less of a risk. ? Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:22, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That is an improvement. Thank you! Surtsicna (talk) 20:02, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Prince of Wales[edit]

Which title is higher - Duke of Edinburgh or Prince of Wales? --95.24.71.129 (talk) 15:37, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Prince of Wales is the more senior title as princely titles are usually more senior than dukedoms. DDMS123 (talk) 18:51, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Prince Alfred[edit]

Is it 100% sure that Prince Alfred was given it as an HEREDITARY title? --95.24.71.129 (talk) 17:15, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Prince Alfred's title was hereditary. Both of his sons predeceased him. His first son, Alfred, Hereditary Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha died in 1899 and his second son was stillborn and died in 1879. Also life peerages weren't usually given out during Prince Alfred's time. DDMS123 (talk) 18:55, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Duke of Edinburgh[edit]

King Charles was never Duke of Edinburgh. Only his father Prince Phillip ever was. The Duke position was created for Philip by the Queens father King George 2607:FEA8:F1F:DB00:F2F9:693D:9647:B375 (talk) 19:36, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No you got that wrong. Charles inherited it when Philip died and then the title merged in the crown on Charles' accession allowing him to bestow it as a new creation on Edward. DeCausa (talk) 19:54, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]