Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Caffeinism

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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was keep (no consensus). Mindspillage (spill yours?) 03:00, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Caffeinism[edit]

Original research from health-mad anon user, probably same as has created Wolfing Food and other pages on VFD. Mainly exists to further editors own site, so self-promotion. Linking to the article from every page possible, even when totally unsuitable --Kiand 00:38, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep - actually exists. Pubmed search reveals 23 scientific papers, seems otherwise plausible. Fawcett5 00:40, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
comment How come it woefully fails the Google Test then? Sure, caffeine addiction can exist, but this page, and its author, seems to think it ranks up with extremely major mental illnesses and not as a general addiction. For reference - under 1000 Google hits, international search. --Kiand 00:49, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It failed becaused you spelled it wrong. I get lots of hits. I have now also confirmed that it really is a condition recognized by the DSM IV. Research before Vfd please. Fawcett5 00:51, 21 May 2005 (UTC) Note also that sufficient quantity of virtually any stimulant can induce psychosis. Fawcett5 00:53, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I spelt it the way the article author spelt it... Either way, article is still vaguely rant-y, and was linked to from every single major mental health article in the worst and least relevant ways (fixed that). Again, excess amounts of nearly -anything- causes problems. Doesn't mean we shoud have Hydroism as an article, though... --Kiand 00:55, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
"Hydroism"? I think the term you want is hyponatremia, hyperhydration, or water intoxication --Carnildo 06:58, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
comment Searching Pubmed for 'caffeinism psychosis' return a single paper. The DSM-IV lists caffeine related anxiety and caffeine related sleep disorder, but nothing about caffeine related psychosis. It doesn't use the term caffeinism either. -- ascorbic 20:27, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cleanup is more useful here than deletion I think, though the author is using wikipedia as a soapbox a little too much for my liking. Defining caffeinism as an addiction to caffeine is new to me by the way. --W(t) 01:58, 2005 May 21 (UTC)
  • Delete as a neoligism and original research --nixie 04:37, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
comment But how can it be a neologism if a search for "caffeinism" on Google" turns up 5,970 hits? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.181.16.31 (talk • contribs)
By being a new meaning for an existing word. --Carnildo 02:32, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep Please keep. I'm not the originator of this article (who termed caffeinism "addiction to caffeine") but I am the person who has added significantly to it for the past several weeks. (No longer anonymous but registered as BrianinNYC.)

I'm not the creator of Wolfing Food or any spurious entries of any kind. Nor am I "health-mad" (although I confess to quoting Gary Null below). However, I am very much determined to alert the public to the symptoms of caffeinism, which I had two years ago. Within 9 months of starting a 1-3 cup a day coffee habit, I went from excellent health to psychosis, walking around with my eyes glazed over and my arms stiff at my sides. I was about 90% oblivious to the symptoms engulfing me: anxiety, restless legs, chattiness, euphoria, disorientation and delusions (including, on one occasion, paranoia and hostility). I came very close to going on heavy meds and being institutionalized, after living 30 years rarely taking more than an aspirin for anything.

Since withdrawing my symptoms have vanished entirely and my former health has returned. I've spoken with many others who had the same experience, and several doctors well enough educated in toxicology or immunology to diagnose it, and see their patients' health restored.

I believe it should remain under "caffeinism" based on the currency of the term in medical circles. "Caffeine overdose" implies an acute, one-time episode (like popping a dozen Vivarin). But caffeinism, in its most insidious form, is a chronic condition that mimics manic depression, schizophrenia and a host of other ills that last for years--and are treated not with stomach pumps but pharmaceuticals.

The following are just a few of the many alarming statements about caffeinism by psychiatrists, toxicologists and MDs, scattered throughout the medical literature. Many more are added weekly to the Experts page at the nonprofit Web site I'm building,CaffeineWeb.com, where anyone can click on links to the original sources:


DC Mackay and JW Rollins, "Caffeine and caffeinism," Journal of the Royal Naval Medical Service,1989;75(2):65-7: "[When caffeine is taken in excess], anxiety-related symptoms become increasingly apparent. A case of caffeinism, which presented as a paranoid delusion, is reported as an extreme example of this. A study of 60 hospital inpatients revealed that about 40% of them consumed sufficient caffeine to produce symptoms of caffeinism. It is thus recommended that all patients should be questioned on their caffeine intake. Also, caffeinism should be considered as a differential diagnosis of anxiety states."


L Tondo and N Rudas, "The course of a seasonal bipolar disorder influenced by caffeine," Journal of Affective Disorders: "A longitudinal case report shows a sudden remission of the severe course of a seasonal bipolar disorder after 10 years of psychopharmacological treatments. The discontinuation of heavy caffeine intake appears to have contributed to the outcome."


Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV): "The 4 caffeine-induced psychiatric disorders include caffeine intoxication, caffeine-induced anxiety disorder, caffeine-induced sleep disorder, and caffeine-related disorder not otherwise specified (NOS)."


Drs. JE James and KP Stirling, in The British Journal of Addiction: "Although infrequently diagnosed, caffeinism is thought to afflict as many as one person in ten of the population."


Clinical nutritionist Stephen Cherniske, Author, Caffeine Blues: Wake Up to the Dangers of America's #1 Drug: "For five years I worked in a team practice with physicians and psychotherapists. Often, the psychological evaluation would include one or more anxiety syndromes, and the recommendation was for counseling. I would point out that the person was consuming excessive amounts of caffeine and request a trial month off caffeine prior to therapy sessions. In about 50% of cases, the anxiety syndrome would resolve with caffeine withdrawal alone."

"In over a decade of practice as a clinical nutritionist, I have seen firsthand, with thousands of clients, that caffeine is a health hazard. Anxiety, muscle aches, PMS, headaches....However, if that's all caffeine has done to you, you're lucky. What about people misdiagnosed as neurotic or even psychotic, who spend years and small fortunes in psychotherapy--all because no one asked them about their caffeine intake?"


Roland R. Griffiths, Ph.D, The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine; Professor of Behavioral Biology, Department of Psychiatry & Behavioral Sciences; Professor of Neuroscience, Department of Neuroscience; Formerly Research Chief, Department of Psychiatry, Baltimore City Hospitals, Baltimore, MD: "The potential for caffeine intoxication to cause clinically significant distress is reflected by the inclusion of caffeine intoxication as a diagnosis in DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition)(American Psychiatric Association, 1994) and in ICD-10 (International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems, Tenth Edition)(World Health Organization). Caffeine intoxication has long been recognized as a discrete syndrome associated with excessive caffeine use. Caffeinism is an older term that has been used to describe the toxic effects of caffeine resulting from acute or chronic use. Caffeine intoxication is currently defined by a number of symptoms and clinical features that emerge in response to recent consumption of caffeine. Common features of caffeine intoxication include nervousness (anxiety), restlessness, excitement, insomnia, rambling flow of thought and speech, gastrointestinal upset, tremors, tachycardia, diuresis, muscle twitching, periods of inexhaustibility, and psychomotor agitation. In addition, there have been reports of patients with caffeine intoxication having fever, irritability, tremors, sensory disturbances, tachypnea, and headaches."


Ruth Whalen, MLT, "How Much Mental Illness Is an Allergy to Caffeine?": "Caffeine toxicity may be mistaken for bipolar disorder. Symptoms include: chattiness, repetitive thought and action (resembling obsessive compulsive disorder), restlessness, psychomotor agitation, alternating moods, anger, impulsiveness, aggression, omnipotence, delirium, buying sprees, lack of sexual inhibition, and loss of values. Toxicity is known to cause excitement, agitation, restlessness, shifting states of consciousness, and toxic psychosis, mimicking amphetamine psychosis. Allergic individuals may be erroneously diagnosed, medicated, and lost in a dark disturbed world, until death."


Dr. Sidney Kaye, Institute of Legal Medicine: "The symptoms vary with acquired or inborn tolerance, but in general the patients may complain of [among other symptoms] nervousness, restlessness, silliness, elation, euphoria, confusion, disorientation, excitation, and even violent behavior with wild, inanic screaming, kicking and biting, progressing to semi-stupor."

"Coffee overindulgence is overlooked many times because the bizarre symptoms may resemble and masquerade as an organic or mental disease....But what a feeling of relief to both physician and patient to see the symptoms completely disappear on the physician's order to stop drinking coffee."


Sanford Bolton, PhD, and Gary Null, M.S., in the Journal of Orthomolecular Psychiatry: "Caffeinism may result in a syndrome which resembles and may be confused or confounded with true psychotic states. This may lead to misdiagnosis and mistreatment. A question arises from the varied reports of caffeine consumption in psychiatric populations: Does caffeine stimulate psychosis or does psychosis stimulate caffeine consumption?"


Calvin Thrash, MD, Author, Food Allergies Made Simple: "Thousands are in mental institutions today because of no greater matter than that of the use of caffeine. Psychiatrists are now publishing articles indicating that there are numerous cases of depression and anxiety in mental institutions, who need no other treatment than to be taken off caffeine.

"However, the use of caffeine is so traditional and firmly entrenched that it is almost impossible to remove caffeinated drinks from the diet of patients in mental institutions. Soft drink machines, coffee dispensers, and the traditional coffee break are common pastimes in mental institutions, and with those who are mentally ill at home."


Again, please let the article remain. I apologize for the "soapbox" tone and have no objections to others amending it, as long as the substance of the article stands. Thanks so much!

Brian@CaffeineWeb.com

  • Keep - Looks like the basis for a decent article to me. Leithp 08:19, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Looks to me like the basis for a decent article. Laurel Bush 09:28, 21 May 2005 (UTC).[reply]
  • Keep - Like the basis for a decent article, to me, this looks. --Doc Glasgow 11:01, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've lost patience with this. Change vote to merge and direct as per Geogre below.--Doc Glasgow 22:39, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - It is a basis for a decent article . (I not sure though) --IncMan 11:34, May 21, 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. The journal references indicate that this a real issue. Martg76 12:51, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep ON the condition that the anon refrain from adding to all other pages on mental illnesses/neurological conditions "It is distinguished from non-organic conditions that mimic it, such as caffeinism." Caffeinism may be real, but even if it is, it's only one among many substances where an overdose can produce symptoms similar to some organic disorder. -- Antaeus Feldspar 14:01, 21 May 2005 (UTC) Vote changed to Delete; see below. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:39, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Comment from the contributor whose edits are being disputed I only added a caffeinism reference to entries about the illnesses and symptoms that it mimics or is associated with (e.g., bipolar disorder and anxiety). I think it deserves the prominence I've given it in those entries, based on the following statements from medical professionals, which specifically address how widespread caffeinism is and how insidiously it mimics organic illnesses:

Clinical Management of Poisoning and Drug Overdose, 3rd ed., 1998
 Michael W. Shannon, MD, MPH, Director, Lead and Toxicology Clinic, The Children's Hospital Boston; Professor of Pediatrics, Harvard Medical School; Lester M. Haddad, MD, Clinical Professor in Family Medicine, Medical University of South Carolina; Bon Secours St. Francis Xavier Hospital; James F. Winchester, MD, Professor of Medicine, Division of Nephrology, Georgetown University Medical Center:

"Caffeine-induced psychosis, whether it be delirium, manic depression, schizophrenia, or merely an anxiety syndrome, in most cases will be hard to differentiate from other organic or non-organic psychoses....The treatment for caffeine-induced psychosis is to withhold further caffeine."

DC Mackay and JW Rollins, "Caffeine and caffeinism," Journal of the Royal Naval Medical Service,1989;75(2):65-7: "A study of 60 hospital inpatients revealed that about 40% of them consumed sufficient caffeine to produce symptoms of caffeinism. It is thus recommended that all patients should be questioned on their caffeine intake. Also, caffeinism should be considered as a differential diagnosis of anxiety states."

Drs. JE James and KP Stirling, in The British Journal of Addiction: "Although infrequently diagnosed, caffeinism is thought to afflict as many as one person in ten of the population."

Clinical nutritionist Stephen Cherniske, Author, Caffeine Blues: Wake Up to the Dangers of America's #1 Drug: "What about people misdiagnosed as neurotic or even psychotic, who spend years and small fortunes in psychotherapy--all because no one asked them about their caffeine intake?"

Ruth Whalen, MLT, "How Much Mental Illness Is an Allergy to Caffeine?": "Caffeine toxicity may be mistaken for bipolar disorder....Allergic individuals may be erroneously diagnosed, medicated, and lost in a dark disturbed world, until death."

Dr. Sidney Kaye, Institute of Legal Medicine: "Coffee overindulgence is overlooked many times because the bizarre symptoms may resemble and masquerade as an organic or mental disease....But what a feeling of relief to both physician and patient to see the symptoms completely disappear on the physician's order to stop drinking coffee."

Sanford Bolton, PhD, and Gary Null, M.S., in the Journal of Orthomolecular Psychiatry: "Caffeinism may result in a syndrome which resembles and may be confused or confounded with true psychotic states. This may lead to misdiagnosis and mistreatment. A question arises from the varied reports of caffeine consumption in psychiatric populations: Does caffeine stimulate psychosis or does psychosis stimulate caffeine consumption?"

Calvin Thrash, MD, Author, Food Allergies Made Simple: "Thousands are in mental institutions today because of no greater matter than that of the use of caffeine. Psychiatrists are now publishing articles indicating that there are numerous cases of depression and anxiety in mental institutions, who need no other treatment than to be taken off caffeine."

Following is the full text of a letter by Dan Stradford published last month on BMJ.com (formerly British Medical Journal), with commentary by psychiatrist and neurologist Stuart Shipko, M.D., founder and director of the Panic Disorder Institute:

"The failure to do full medical screenings on psychiatric patients is one of the greatest areas of neglect in modern medicine. Studies have repeatedly shown for years that psychiatric populations have more medical ailments than non-psychiatric patients. No one disputes this. And most of those same studies also show that a healthy percentage of psychiatric patients are routinely misdiagnosed with mental illness (and often placed on psychotropics for years or for life), when they, in fact, have medical problems causing or exacerbating their psychiatric symptoms. No one disputes this either.

The landmark 1980 study by Richard Hall et al ("Physical Illness Manifesting as Psychiatric Disease", Arch Gen Psychiatry, 1980, 37: 989- 995) found 46% of the psychiatric patients thoroughly examined had physical ailments causing or exacerbating their mental symptoms.

The California legislature was so shocked by this study, it ordered research, headed by Dr. Lorrin Koran of Stanford University, on how to improve the quality of medical exams in psychiatric settings. The result of that study was the "Medical Evaluation Field Manual," which sets a minimal standard for medical screenings and provides an efficient algorithm when full screenings are not practical.

The manual was distributed to all of California's counties in the late 1980s and NONE of them implemented it. A dozen years later, my nonprofit organization, Safe Harbor, has asked for and received a grant to work on getting this manual implemented.

We have posted the Field Manual on the internet at www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/fieldmanual.htm.

What concerns me is that I--a layman--and a group of volunteers is having to grab the psychiatric profession by the scruff of the neck to get them to examine their own patients! This does not speak well for the profession or for its organizations, such as the American and British Psychiatric Associations....

This medical negligence cannot continue. I would like to issue a call to medical professionals to, once and for all, set and keep minimal medical screening standards for psychiatric patients so that this easily remedied medical neglect exists no more."

Response by Stuart Shipko, M.D., psychiatrist, neurologist, founder and director of the Panic Disorder Institute: "This is so true. A long time ago when I actively practiced general medicine I was the doctor who did physical examinations on patients confined to a mental ward. I found that the labwork showed excessive abnormalities of calcium, sodium and chloride. I diligently worked up these abnormalities, but concluded that the abnormalities were due to problems in blood testing. To present this to the quality assurance committee, I reviewed the charts of the previous 50 admissions and showed the cluster of abnormalities. The response? They wanted to know what my motives were and why I cared. The fact that it was my job to care went over their heads. Medical evaluation of the 'mentally ill' is pretty much nonexistent." BrianinNYC 13:23, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Posting huge chunks of quotes is neither the way to build an encyclopedia nor the way to answer the objection raised. Here is the list of articles to which you have added a reference to 'caffeinism' in the intro:
And finally, there's this little pair of gems. Here is 69.86.46.203's first edit, where he asks "Is it possible to send readers to www.CaffeineWeb.com? This site saved my life." And here is his first edit to this VfD, where he discloses that in fact, CaffeineWeb is "the nonprofit Web site I'm building". Well, golly. Did it save your life before or after you started building it?
comment I apologize. I should have said "The information on this site saved my life." I found it scattered throughout the Web, and it compelled me to see a professional, who told me I was a classic case and to withdraw immediately. I didn't mean to be underhanded. Nor am I interested in any kind of self-promotion. The more evidence I've accumulated--which is being added to my site daily--the more I've shifted the focus of my site from myself to the many studies supporting my conviction that I'm far from alone. I hope you'll keep your Keep vote in light of the experts' testimony, if not mine. :)--BrianinNYC 13:37, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]


OK, that does it for me. I was leaning towards "keep the article but give it the massive cleanup it needs and clean up the unreasonable overlinking." This tips the scales over. I'm now changing my vote to Delete and let a real article be written by someone who's not trying to exploit Wikipedia for self-promotion. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:39, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep (Despite all the annoying anonymous references and arguments.) Probably needs a redirect from Caffeine addiction. :) — RJH 17:12, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
comment Arguments and references are the only means I have to communicate the importance and validity of this entry. :)--BrianinNYC 13:37, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Neologism. Self-promotion. The vast majority of reference that I can find on caffeinism use the term to mean caffeine addiction, or the (non-psychiatric) symptoms of overdose. The references that I can find that do refer to psychiatric effects of caffeine rarely call it caffeinism. Of the papers I've seen about caffeine-related psychiatric conditions, most are either about caffeine-induced anxiety. The only references to caffeine-induced psychosis that I can see in academic sources are referring to cases of patients who have had their pre-existing schizophrenia exacerbated by caffeine. The only references to bipolar are on caffeine's effects on lithium clearance. Some of these points may be worth adding to Caffeine. -- ascorbic 20:16, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ugh! Ok, let's not wander too far from our point (the article), here. The article needs clean up, if it's kept. Is the topic valid? You betcha. Is the term common? Nah. Is the term the preferred term? Probably not. So, what do we do? A discussion of caffeine intoxication, caffeine overdose, and the like should probably be at Caffeine. Therefore, I'd say Merge to Caffeine and redirect there. This way, the discussion and references stay, and we can make the information on the potential danger of over-use easier to find than if we have it at an out-of-the-way title. Geogre 20:50, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, self-promotion. RickK 22:13, May 21, 2005 (UTC)
  • Clarification' not a second vote. Clearly the user who promulgates this article has some kind of agenda, and the article does need some cleanup. Nevertheless, this is a documented, easily verifiable and legitimate medical term (and spectrum of conditions for which it is the blanket term, including addiction, anxiety disorders, and in the extreme manifestation, psychosis) worthy of its own article, and with a indisputable body of scientific literature. It is most certainly not a neologism, and any effort to delete or redirect would be mistaken. Fawcett5 23:06, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I like coffee--a lot--and this is nothing but an ad caffeinem attack. A NPOV is not even being attempted here. What about all of the benefits of caffeine use? Caffeine makes me feel better about myself as a person. It gives me energy, heightens my sex drive, gives me a overall sense of well-being and confidence. Plus it tastes really good with milk and tons of refined sugar. Unlike vodka, it's really easy to drink in large legal quantities without all of the dangerous physical and social effects, and coffee only improves my driving when the day is done. We must stop this coffee smear and vandalism. Delete, delete, delete! C W Merchant 00:30, 22 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I would like to preempt any further accusations of self-promotion by agreeing in advance to the total elimination of my Web site, CaffeineWeb.com, from any mention whatsoever in Wikipedia, on any page no matter how relevant my link may be. But I hope that the references to caffeinism, and the main article itself, will stand. The only reason I reference my site (which is nonprofit) is because it's the only site that gathers all these statements about caffeinism in one place. Also, the article is not an attack on caffeine any more than a site about peanut allergy is an attack on peanuts. Many people can ingest caffeine with no apparent effect on their long-term mental health; but many others cannot.--BrianinNYC 20:47, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Verifiable but probably in need of cleaning up but IANADoctor. DoubleBlue (Talk) 03:25, 22 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep, this is borderline. The article needs a serious cleanup and expansion (with more verifiable peer reviewed sources). Megan1967 03:47, 22 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Even more editing in of links to caffeinism:
Comment: Caffeine is a toxin. From [1]

"What purpose in the natural world does the chemical serve?

The answer is that caffeine is part of a plant's "chemical weaponry" to defend itself against predators and competitors. Plants cannot defend themselves with limbs, or run away from danger. Instead, they synthesize chemicals which are toxic to certain life forms. Caffeine is such a chemical; it has potent antibiotic and antifungal powers, and causes sterility in several insects. Also, caffeine permeates the soil which surrounds the plants by the accumulation of fallen leaves and berries, thus inhibiting the growth of competing plants.

However, in doing this, the caffeine plant ultimately kills itself as well. Over many years, the accumulation of caffeine in the soil becomes so great that the toxicity level is high enough to harm the parent plant. It is this that contributes to the degeneration of coffee plantations between the ages of ten and twenty-five years." BrianinNYC 22:47, 22 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Comment: I did go a little overboard, sorry. But I don't think my edits were so far afield. Consider what those trying to sound the alarm about caffeinism are up against (and believe me, I'm far from a conspiracy theorist. I'm a reasonable person who had a horrifying illness and is determined to save others who think their 2-3 cups a day are harmless, while they suffer symptoms of caffeinism).

From Caffeine Blues by clinical nutritionist Stephen Cherniske: "If you were curious about the dangers of caffeine, you would undoubtedly come across a brochure entitled What You Should Know About Caffeine. You would find this ubiquitous brochure on information racks in hospitals, pharmacies, public health offices, or in your doctor's office. It's available throught the mail and on the Internet. What You Should Know About Caffeine is published by the very official-sounding International Food Information Council in Washington, DC. The brochure does not list sponsors or disclose an industry affiliation. When I requested details of industry sponsorship, I received another glossy color brochure that mentioned nothing about which organizations supply the funds to disseminate all this information. After pressing the issue through several phone calls, I finally received a list of IFIC "supporters," including Pepsi-Cola, Coca-Cola, M&M/Mars Candy, NutraSweet, Nestle, Hershey Foods, Frito-Lay, Proctor & Gamble and the Arco Chemical Company.

"When I asked the IFIC for scientific support for their assertion that 300 milligrams of caffeine was perfectly safe, they sent me a report published in Food and Chemical Toxicity. The authors of this report are both employees of the Coca-Cola Company and members of the National Soft Drink Asociation. As you might expect, the report downplays the effects of caffeine in the American diet, using some interesting techniques.

"For the past eight years I have conducted a systematic review of the world scientific literature on caffeine. This research has taken some real detective work. It's difficult to tell what's going on at first. After all, I drank coffee for over 20 years, simply because I believed like everybody else that coffee, and caffeine, had no adverse health effects.

"I was in for the surprise of my life. The first thing I noticed is that much of the research on coffee was imprecise. The majority of researchers refer to the standard coffee cup as a six-ounce serving, but most people drink from mugs, which contain 12 to 14 ounces or more. That's not to mention convenience store cups, which contain anywhere from 20 to 32 ounces. If you're like most people, you probably consume far more caffeine than you think you do....

"I also began to see that the caffeine issue is rarely taken seriously. Nearly every researcher starts from the assumption that caffeine is okay. Why? Because, consciously or subconsciously, they are influenced by the fact that they themselves depend on coffee. I have visited the offices of hundreds of scientists, professors, and clinicians. The coffee machine is as much a part of their environment as test tubes and computers. Likewise, the journalists who report health news to the public are usually heavy coffee drinkers. I'm not saying these people are dishonest, only that information can be biased by the habits of those who make and break the news."

BrianinNYC 22:47, 22 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

    • Brian, stop pasting in huge quotes from other people instead of talking with us here and now about the issue at hand. It's rude. -- Antaeus Feldspar 11:53, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
comment I think my edits, if lengthy, are about the issue at hand--always and only in response to questions raised by others. Believe me, I'd rather not spend my time pasting or typing in quotes from medical studies. I don't see any other way to respond than to quote experts on the subject. --BrianinNYC
  • Delete. This condition is not medically recognized. This appears to be an attempt to manipulate WP to gain web traffic for a quack medical website. Quale 08:09, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
comment I'd like to repeat what I said above, that I'd be happy to delete all reference to CaffeineWeb.com anywhere in Wikipedia. The only reward I get from people visiting my site is knowing it may save someone who is suffering from caffeinism without realizing it (as I and many others have). Also, before casting a Delete vote, or calling mine a quack site, please look at the credentials of the doctors I quote. --BrianinNYC
  • Weak keep. The original version might have been original research, but the current article seems to be pretty much encyclopedic. — JIP | Talk 13:24, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but rewrite. DSM IV is rife with caffeine-induced conditions, but the present page is a POV fork, and the link has been dumped endlessly on other pages. It helps pointing out that most people who drink coffee don't go mad. JFW | T@lk 13:59, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oh, and Brian has said enough. Any long postings on this page from him will lead to my vote being changed to delete. JFW | T@lk 14:03, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Seriously, what the flip? Delete as extremely spurious. Radiant_* 14:00, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Worthy of an article. (There's plenty of source material that could be used to make this into a splendid article). While the caffeine article already discusses toxicity and abuse, those issues alone are notable enough for an article. HKT 17:38, 24 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify my view: The article should be rewritten and probably renamed. Toxicity and abuse are big issues, but whether caffeine intake can lead to a condition or syndrome uniquely called Caffeinism is highly questionable. How accepted is it in the medical community that caffeine intake leads to a very specific set of symptoms unique from other conditions?
  • Delete. I almost speedy'd this, but it seems like it is not something worthy of it's own article. I would argue for a delete and a minor mention in Caffeine. Wikibofh 04:06, 26 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. But clean it up a bit. -- unsigned vote by DamianFinol
  • Keep - I personally found this article very useful, although perhaps more information on it would make it much better! -- unsigned vote by 212.139.17.203 (talk · contribs); this is this user's sole Wikipedia edit.
  • Delete. This can be part of caffeine Joey.dale 03:05, 31 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete drini ☎ 17:41, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
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