Talk:Second Foundation

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Old talk[edit]

Wasn't it revealed at the end of the novel that —————— was the location of the Second Foundation, as the two plants were sociologically at opposite ends of the universe? --24.98.108.16 22:10, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it was. But I don't think it is wise to include this type of information in the article. It does not serve any purpose besides spoiling the end of the novel. --200.207.152.195 06:10, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

User:24.98.108.16, I replaced a word of yours with "——————".Hillgentleman 04:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How can this article not even mention Arkady Darrell? AnonMoos 07:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

it does now :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 11:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There's a link to the Arkady Darrell article which I added a year ago, but still no discussion of one of the main viewpoint characters in the book... AnonMoos 14:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Confusing plot hole[edit]

Warning: HUGE spoilers. EARTH-SHATTERING spoilers. Absolutely do not read on if you have not read this book yet.


I don't know if I'm just missing something, or if it's something Asimov addresses in Foundation's Edge or Foundation and Earth (two books I will definitely get around to reading, but not at the moment), but the final revelation of the location of the Second Foundation really underwhelmed me--it was as if Asimov put such a tremendous effort into making everything fit just right, explaining away every facet, every oddity of his universe, and then at the last moment forget everything.

Or maybe I'm missing something. Here's what I've pieced together:

1. As was finally revealed, Trantor was the location of the Second Foundation.

2. Second Foundationers were aware that Bayta and the Mule were on Trantor, trying to find the Second Foundation with Ebling Mis's help. They admitted that they used their mental influence to pressure Bayta into killing Mis before he revealed the secret.

3. The Second Foundationers wanted--NEEDED the Mule dead (or at least disinterested in finding them until he died of natural causes.)

4. The Mule, Bayta, and Toran were the only ones alive that knew (some of) the secrets of the Second Foundation. They were the only ones who could have revealed this knowledge to the general public (it's later implied that Bayta does all of the revealing.) The fallout from this revelation was the second most important crisis the Second Foundation faced, and given their advanced Psychohistory techniques, it's not as if they couldn't forsee the consequences ahead of time.

5. The Second Foundation did not attempt to interfere at all (beyond their influence of Bayta) until five years later, when they concocted a scheme to get the Mule to attack, in person, a world that he thought was the homeworld of the Second Foundation.

6. At the height of this plan, they showed that their powers were equal to or greater than his. A relatively unskilled Second Foundationer, Channis, was able to (briefly, but significantly) hold his own against the Mule. The Mule said that it would take hours for the First Speaker to wear him down (at no time implying that he himself stood a chance of beating the First Speaker), and the First Speaker instead managed to defeat him within minutes. The brief period when Channis stood his ground vs. the Mule also showed another weakness--the Mule could not deal with many individuals attacking him (physically and/or mentally) at once.

7. The Second Foundation's solution to the crisis that evolved after they were partially revealed was extremely labor-intensive, risky and costly (they willingly sacrificed 50 lives to make the First Foundationers believe that they had been wiped out.)

So--given all of that--I'm at a loss to figure out Why the Second Foundation didn't take care of the problem of the Mule and of Bayta's revelations during their visit to Trantor? They had the numbers. They KNEW that Bayta and the Mule were there and, in fact, manipulated Bayta into shooting Mis for the sole purpose of keeping the Mule in the dark. But why be subtle? They had the advantage of numbers (there are at least hundreds of Second Foundationers--perhaps more) and of surprise (the Mule didn't know it was their homeworld.)

But they did nothing. They let the Mule go back to the safety of his homeworld palace, and they let Bayta (who was already Converted!) tell the entire galaxy about Mis's findings. The two major crises of the last book of the Foundation Trillogy--the defeat of the Mule and the persecution of the Second Foundationers by the First Foundationers--could have been nipped in the bud if only the Second Foundationers had done something during those many weeks (were they months? I forget) that Toran, Bayta, Mis and the Mule were researching in the library.

So, am I missing something, or is this simply a colossal plot hole? (If he answers this issue in another book, please just tell me the title and not the spoiler.) --Lode Runner 10:19, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Bayta herself gives you the answer to some degree - the Second Foundation wasn't ready to deal with the Mule when he first appeared. While they were able to influence events to keep him from discovering their location, they couldn't simply shut him down then and there without damaging the Plan beyond repair. Events had to be calculated and adjusted so that they didn't just BEAT him, but beat him the correct way, at the correct time, so that the Plan could be salvaged. Had they done any more than they did, the Mule would have detected them and they would have been lost. Had they simply blown up the library with everyone inside or something, the damage done to the Plan would have been much worse. Remember, we're talking about a massive mathematical formula with billions of variables and incredibly complex systems, which has just been almost completely derailed by the utter conquest of the Foundation. Hossenfeffer (talk) 03:25, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The real second foundation is on Terminus although a few stayed behind on Trantor, Read Foundation's Triumph.Nw15062 (talk) 01:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • From the perspective of author's intent, Foundation's Triumph is literally meaningless, since Asimov didn't write it. And while it was officially endorsed by his estate, many don't consider it canon. In essence, it all boils down to whether or not you consider David Brin's vision to trump Asimov's explicit statements to the contrary. Hossenfeffer (talk) 03:25, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Forward the Foundation[edit]

I've just finished reading 'Forward the Foundation' for the first time and I'm having some trouble reconciling some elements of the ending with the earlier (or later) books in the series. Specifically Hari's granddaughter Wanda leaving to found the second foundation. It's implied that he never saw her again and she didn't attend his funeral so clearly she left Trantor and didn't come back. --Teletran 06:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Telepaths?[edit]

Somebody really screwed up their vocabulary here. SECOND FOUNDATIONERS ARE NOT TELEPATHS. They are just second foundationers. Telepathy is the communication between minds with the consent of both minds, to my understanding, and the people of the Second Foundation control minds and detect feelings. Nobody would really consent to having a manipulated mind, would they? Not telepathy. Also, the search by the Mule should be extended. Tazenda, the frigid climate, him being called the first citizen, just a few words to get anybody willing to do this started. I cannot, unfortunately, because I am busy at the moment. If I ever get time, I might do so. Slartibartfast1992 01:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The second foundationers were telepaths. This was not spelled out in Second Foundation, but it was explicitly explained in Foundation's Edge. --Lode Runner (talk) 01:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Right, first off, sorry for having taken this to this talk page (should have taken a WP:SOFIXIT attitude). Second, right, they are mentioned as telepaths, but they aren't telepaths in the traditional sense of the word, as for telepathy, there are usually the two people communicating who are telepaths, and the second foundationers have the bonus of partial mind control, so it would, in my judgment, be better phrased as a complete set of mind-related capacities. Anyway, I'll wait for your opinion on this until I find whatever sentence originally had the word and replace it. --Slartibartfast1992 21:10, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, telepathy + added mind control abilities isn't exactly a novel concept. Off the top of my head, in Star Trek Vulcans are described as telepathic, but they also have limited mind control abilities (via the mind meld.) There are plenty more examples throughout sci-fi video and literature. Thus, I think it's find to refer to the second foundationers as telepaths, so long as it is also somewhere mentioned that this includes the ability to control, as well as read minds. To put it another way, the ability to control doesn't replace or displace the ability to read, and one can still refer to the entire package as "telepathy" so long as the exact abilities are detailed. --Lode Runner (talk) 07:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Move?[edit]

I suggest this page be moved to Second Foundation (novel) so that an article can be written at Second Foundation (organization) on the group of mentalics in said novel. This page would then be used as a disambiguation page. Of course, since the second article isn't written yet, I didn't just move it now; it can wait. But what do you all think? —ScouterSig 15:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure there's a lot to say about the Second Foundation as an organization, distinct from its occurrence in the various novels... AnonMoos (talk) 05:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed that there is a section called The Organization at the bottom of this article. —ScouterSig 14:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

what happened to wanda?[edit]

my question is this: wanda was sent away by hari to start the second foundation, the book then sys they never saw each other again, but hari stayed on trantor, as did wanda. was this some sort of error? or is there something im missing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.136.68 (talk) 01:42, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

-I just finished the book. Trantor is a HUGE planet. The purpose of the end is to imply she left, as not to ruin the later books, while not actually being a contradiction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.188.56 (talk) 21:20, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

-I struggled with the same question. The other possible explanation is that the Second Foundation needed to disappear from sight completely, with no further contact with Seldon. But it's completely convincing. Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 23:26, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Arkady Darell[edit]

It's embarrassing that Arkady Darell is barely mentioned, despite being the main viewpoint character of the second half of the book. See 2007 comments above. AnonMoos (talk) 15:56, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the material currently at List of Foundation series characters#Arkady Darell should also be on this article. And it should be mentioned in some way that in 1950 U.S. science fiction, it wasn't at all common for 14-year-old girl characters to be the main protagonist in the way that Arkady is... AnonMoos (talk) 02:33, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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