Talk:Siege of Ostend

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Siege of Ostend article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Spain Mid‑importance

	Spain portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spain, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Spain on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SpainWikipedia:WikiProject SpainTemplate:WikiProject SpainSpain articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Military history: Dutch / European / Spanish / Early Modern

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Dutch military history task force
	European military history task force
	Spanish military history task force
	Early Modern warfare task force (c. 1500 – c. 1800)

Belgium Low‑importance

	Belgium portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Belgium, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Belgium on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BelgiumWikipedia:WikiProject BelgiumTemplate:WikiProject BelgiumBelgium-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Netherlands

This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Netherlands, an attempt to create, expand, and improve articles related to the Netherlands on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, visit the project page where you can join the project or contribute to the discussion.NetherlandsWikipedia:WikiProject NetherlandsTemplate:WikiProject NetherlandsNetherlands articles

England

	England portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Untitled[edit]

The story about not switching shirts seems historically uncorrect: See http://www.takeourword.com/TOW135/page1.html

Then there is the color known as isabella. It is said to derive from Isabella, the Infanta of Spain whose husband, Archduke Albert, set siege to Ostend, Belgium in 1601. Faithful Isabella undertook a solemn vow never to change her underwear until her hubby had possession of Ostend. Well, he took the city all right, but not until 1604. You can imagine how the Infanta felt about that! Isabella is, therefore, a delicate shade of yellowish-brown: the color, some say, of a princess's undies after she's worn them for three years. What a great story... shame it isn't true [see Sez You, Issue 136].

--WouterVH 22:08, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Note Isabella the boss of Soutern Netherlands said that she would'nt switch her shirt until Ostend fell that is why today there is a grey brown colour that has the name Isabella.

Will have to rework, I'll try to do a bit on the article (and correct this paragraph with a "Legend has it", although otherwise it isn't worth crap as it stands) Snapdragonfly 11:24, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Charles van der Noot the Dutch commander was WIA, wounded in action too, when he surrended the city to the Spanish in 1604. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.94.206.24 (talk) 19:37, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Result to be reported in the infobox[edit]

At present, the result reported in the infobox is Spanish Pyrrhic Victory. This is contrary to the guidance at MOS:MIL, which also defers to and gives voice to the advice given in the documentation for the infobox (see Template:Infobox military conflict). The guidance specifically deprecates the use of various qualifying terms, including "pyrrhic". Under the guidance, suitable results for the infobox are: Spanish victory; Spanish victory (see Aftermath); or, See Aftermath. In each case, "Aftermath" would link to the Aftermath section of the article where the result is discussed.

An attempt to bring the article into line with the guidance (Spanish victory (see Aftermath)) has been reverted here. The revert would ignore the guidance and rely instead on the assertion that it is reliably sourced.

What is a pyrrhic victory?: It is not a term consistently defined but generally, it refers to a result where the casualties suffered are of such an extend as to render the victor ineffective. In some cases, it appears to refer to a hollow or meaningless victory.

Is this a pyrrhic victory?: The lead states: ... and the enormous number of casualties sustained turned the result into a Spanish pyrrhic victory. In the body, ... the scale of the Ostend siege and Spinola's subsequent campaign had exhausted the Spanish treasury ... As a result, the draining Ostend siege has been accounted a Pyrrhic victory for Spain. In this respect, the body is not supporting the assertion in the lead that it was considered a pyrrhic victory because of the scale of casualties. Furthermore, Spain's bankruptcy and the Twelve Year Truce occurred well after the end of the seige. While Maland (1980, p31) does refer to the victory being pyrrhic, it is in the context of it being a hollow victory because, while the Spanish won Ostend, they lost Sluys, which, for the Dutch, replaced the need for Ostend. Maland does not substantiate the claim being made nor does Belleroche appear to claim it was a pyrrhic victory. While sources have called this a pyrrhic victory (perhaps not as many as cited), they have not done so for the reason most commonly associated with the term (ie the scale of casualties suffered in achieving the victory). Furthermore, there is nuance to why authors would assert that it is a pyrrhic victory.

What is the rationale for the guidance?: Terms that may be used to qualify the nature of a victory such as pyrrhic can have different meanings in different contexts within sources and different interpretations by readers. Such nuance of meaning cannot be captured in a simple (two-word) phrase. As an overall summary, such nuance is best left to the lead, where prose can be employed. Using Spanish victory (see Aftermath) or See Aftermath flags to the reader that the result is not cut and dried. This is a case where, while several sources do refer to the victory as pyrrhic, they do so for different reasons and not for the reason most likely associated with the term (ie crippling casualties). There does not appear to be a consensus in the sources as to why it would be called a pyrrhic victory. Furthermore, in calling the result pyrrhic, it does not represent the immediate outcome.

Proposal: The proposal is to align the infobox result with the guidance to state: Spanish victory (see Aftermath) (or such other result consistent with the guidance). Cinderella157 (talk) 10:14, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments[edit]

Seems rather clear-cut: the infobox shouldn't use qualifiers like "pyrrhic". Spanish victory (see Aftermath) as per Cinderella157 sounds good to me. Argument/analysis regarding what specific qualifier fits the victory best can then be presented in the linked section. -Ljleppan (talk) 11:18, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. It was a Spanish victory. End of. I can live with "(see Aftermath)" being added, but don't see the point; the infobox template instructions say that "See Aftermath" is an alternative to "XXX victory". Gog the Mild (talk) 13:36, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the template says "Such a note can also be used in conjunction with the standard terms but should not be used to conceal an ambiguity in the "immediate" result.", so using both should be technically fine. But fair point regarding whether it actually adds anything of value here. –Ljleppan (talk) 15:46, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Changes would need to happen in order to best link the infobox to the aftermath. The aftermath section woukd need to be tweaked to better describe the outcome to fall in line with the infobox result. Hope this helps and thank you for the input. Eastfarthingan (talk) 16:11, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the MOS doesn’t trump what the reliable sources say. There are three cited in the article that call it a Pyrrhic victory for the Spanish. What reliable sources call it something else? Some of the argumentation above is far too focused on slavishly following a little known MOS guideline or wanting to define a term instead of focusing on what the reliable sources say about the result. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:06, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]