Talk:Tina Modotti

Tina Modotti
Born	Italy
Died	Mexico
Nationality	Italian
Known for	Photography
Spouse	Roubaix de l'Abrie Richey

Untitled

I've moved the below comments to here, they don't belong in an article. --[[User:Bodnotbod|bodnotbod » .....TALKQuietly)]] 17:52, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)

Images

Desperately needed for this entry are usable [see copyright issues elsewhere] images in at least these categories.

• Photographs by Tina Modotti

• Photographs of Tina Modotti

• Photograph of Diego Rivera’s murals with Modotti as a model.

Many of her photographs still under copyright, mostly held by her estate. According to the Masters of Photography website, provided that we attribute them as a source and say who holds the copyright. ~~Shiri — Talk~~ 19:43, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)

I added a (presumably) PD image of her in The Tiger's Coat. Not terrific, but all the photographs I could find of her are still under copyright. ~~Shiri — Talk~~ 19:46, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)

I just added this link to Modotti's photographs at the Italian Fondazione Italiana per la Fotografia. I think all of these photos are from the 1920s, and I've heard that EU copyright law is less stringent than in the U.S. Would anyone with EU copyright knoweldge and/or Italian skills be interested in checking this out? –dablaze 02:35, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)

I just added Woman from Tehuantepec by Modotti.Smlarthist (talk) 21:05, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Links

These will be left for someone else.

---

more cleanup needed

I cleaned up the first six paragraphs of this article. After that, the author begins to drop names not otherwised referenced and makes use of unexplained abbreviations. Much of this makes little sense. Someone with better knowledge of the subject will have to complete the cleanup.

Rosquet 23:19, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Rosquet - you should register as a user and we can talk more about this. Carptrash 05:35, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Did a Fair Amount

I did a fair amount of stuff, although I added no new content. Mainly reorganizing, wikifying, and trying to clarify.

Superm401 03:35, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

a funny coincidence, if there is such a thing as coincidence.

When I first wrote this piece I emersed myself in Modotti, a person that I have long been infatuated with, but burned out after writing a very sketchy piece and could not get up the feelings needed to return to it. Then a couple of weeks ago I was interviewed by Daniel Pink for his Wired story on Wikipedia. At that time I mentioned to him about my incomplete Modotti article. Almost immediately folks began showing up and doing the work that I seemed incapable of performing. This makes me feel good about myself, good about Tina and mostly, good about wikipedia. [postdated] Carptrash 22:26, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Maybe the copyedit tag helped...

At any rate, the part about the painting too close to Mello and the affair and the peering from behind...it's very confusing; someone who knows the facts should restructure it to indicate at the least what "with whom she was trying to hide the affair" means: was Mello her beard while she was schtupping Rivera? Was she hiding her sex with Rivera from Mello? Was she doing Mello and hiding it from Rivera, who she was also doing? And it means nothing to us that Vidali is peering at her, as he's not been mentioned in the context of "the affair".

The phrase "...continuing to work under the cover of the Red Aid organization..." implies that we've been told she had been before, but there is no indication of that; perhaps an earlier statement of her joining the organization has gone missing. I've adjusted it to "...for whom she worked under cover..." just to make it flow as-is.

Decamped seems such a prissy word, but it fits perfectly here in the wide-brimmed-hatted, artsy-commie spy world she inhabited. Blair P. Houghton 03:57, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Timeline & Stalinist purge questions

I commented out the following text (in mid-edit, so there may be some fragments in there):

Sometime in 1923 Modotti met muralist Diego Rivera, modeled for several of his paintings. began a yearlong affair with him after separating from Weston. During this time she turned more and more towards radical politics. Also in 1926, Diego Rivera's wife Lupe Marín asserted that her separation from her husband was caused by his affair with Modotti, who was modeling for him. The Modotti-Rivera affair lasted for about a year.

She did not care for the fact that in one painting Rivera depicted her in close proximity to Mella, with whom Modotti was trying to hide her affair. Peering at her from behind is the ominous face of Vidali. About this Tina wrote to Weston, "Recently Diego has taken to painting details with an exaggerated precision. He leaves nothing to the imagination." This marked the end of her admiration of him as an artist, and perhaps as a communist as well. Later, after Rivera was expelled from the Communist Party for his Trotskyist leanings, she would denounce him as a traitor.

I tried a lot with this, but there's no real timeline to work with -- I can't really figure out what happened when. Can anyone clarify the whole Diego Rivera affair timeline? In general terms? :-)

Also, the sentence that claims Modotti was involved in the Stalinist purges, was this in Spain or in Moscow? (The claim appeared in the Spanish Civil War paragraph, but I cut it for now.) What kind of involvement was it, or was it just a rumor?

--dablaze 05:12, Jan 16, 2005 (UTC)

Well I started this article, so I guess i can . . . . if not finish it at least address some of these issues. So first thing tomorrow AM [after two cups of coffee].......................... Carptrash 05:27, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Almost two years (and how many cups of coffee?) later.... I've added some more, mostly by expanding the section on 'In the Arsenal', this narrative is really messy and confusing not least because it involves the concatanation of the time lines of umpteen different relationships Frida and Diego, Lupa and Diego, Tina and Diego, Tina and Weston, Tina and Mella, Tina and Vidalli all of which contained great passion and great animosity and conflict (in many cases both personal and political!) so I'm sure that others can improve on my contribution, and I'm not sure that all of my material sits best where it is. I think that IF my additions to the section on the the Arsenal stay there then an image of the mural could be added to the article, there is one in the Diego Rivera article but its is a detail which omits the image of Tina. Green ribbon (talk) 06:04, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Kevincof has made a number of corrections and improvements to my additions. I have made one further amendment to his. I accept that my initial contribution probably reflected an element of POV (broadly Trotskyist) on my part, some of Kevincof's amendment was justfied in that respect, however I think his amendment tended towards an opposite POV (equating internationalism with adherence to the then line of the CPM and the the Communist International) which is equally inappropriate, my amendment I think restores neutrality by recognising that this was Moddoti's POV without accepting it. Perhaps someone with less of an axe to grind than myself (and maybe Kevincof)should look at this to avoid a deletion war! Green ribbon (talk) 14:50, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I edited the statement for two reasons. Firstly, there is ample documentary evidence to associate Modotti's motivations with an internationalist as well as 'humanist' perspective. There is also ample historical evidence that these motivations operated broadly during that period (just as today). By labeling her 'Stalinist' (or Rivera 'Trotskyist' for that matter), the statement tends to obscure with political invective. Certainly by virture of his position Stalin was very influential among Marxists in the 20s and 30s, but I have found no documentary evidence that Modotti evaluated herself (politically or otherwise) in regard to Joseph Stalin. Kevincof (talk) 15:21, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I am re-reading all the Stalinist references in Alber's Fire, Shadows, Snow ( bunch) where the Trotsky Stalin split comes to the fore regarding the assassination of the maverick (if not Trotskyite, then certainly not Stalinist) Mella by (perhaps) Vidali, Tina next lover and clearly a Stalinist. Would she have spent the rest of her life with a Stalinist (including going to Stalin's Soviet Union with him) were she not in sympathy with that POV? However I just ran across the statement that if Mella's "Assassination is shrouded in confusion, so is the matter of Tina's political affiliation. (p. 216) this at the time of the murder. Albers follows this with "she flew back into the Party fold." Stalin's party that is. Carptrash (talk) 16:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

And so, that is Alber's view, not Modotti's, isn't it? Again, among Marxists and many other political leftists during that period (1920-1945 at least), the Russian Revolution and ensuing Soviet government were considered representative, including of the 'anti-fascist struggle'. To assert that everyone who supported either was ideologically a "Stalinist' is tenuous. Kevincof (talk) 17:21, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Well wikipedia is largely a collection of published POV - that fact thay they are published making them okay. We will probably never get Tina's version but Vidale writes that Tina was, more reserved. less talkative, more rigid in her judgement about the relationships between Party and comrades and Albers adds Vittorio's observations bespeak Tina's further drift toward physiological capitulation to Stalinist doctrine as ultimate truth. You might not agree with Albers, but there it is. Carptrash (talk) 17:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that there's a very big difference between any of us, from my POV i'd say that, whilst I've no doubt that Tina was motivated by a conviction that support for the line of the Comintern was the form which internationalism took in her day, in fact the line of the Comintern was far from internationalist, placing the national interests of the Russian bureaucracy over the needs of the world revolution (in Trotsky's words Stalin had converted the Comintern 'from the vanguard of the revolution to the border guard of the Soviet Union'), and I guess that what motivated me was that Kevincof's amendment appeared to equate internationalism with the Comintern line and thus advance an opposite POV, but I now feel that was rather an over-reaction, I feel that my addition of the adjective 'Stalinist' was unnecessary and have deleted it, although I hope its agreed my other amendments should stand.

Kevincof also says 'but I have found no documentary evidence that Modotti evaluated herself (politically or otherwise) in regard to Joseph Stalin', I'm not sure that 'documentary evidence' is needed in this case: after 1927 all of Comintern's policies were dictated by Stalin and it declarations addressed him in hagiographic terms. By being an adherent of the Comintern and as far as we can see supporting, or at least not opposing, Vidale in his efforts to purge the MCP of its 'maverick' elements, including her past and present lovers, Tina showed where she stood in relation to uncle Joe.

As to whether Mella was 'Trotskyist' the evidence is vague, all oppositionist in the Comintern were branded Trotskyist at time, even those such as the American Lovestonites who actually attacked Stalin from the Right, on the other hand Mella does seem to have discussed the position of the Left Opposition with the Spanish oppositionist Andres Nin, who would then have been regarded as a Trotskyist, and of course Diego and Frida both found their way back into the MCP and adhered to the Stalinist line by 1942. Green ribbon (talk) 00:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a very interesting line of discussion on several levels, but still, the topic at hand is Modotti's motivations. As for the Third International, and the assertion that "after 1927 all of Comintern's policies were dictated by Stalin and it declarations addressed him in hagiographic terms", although I would agree that Stalin and his group were the predominant political force within it, there was not complete unanimity. The various purges and expulsions are clear indication of that. So too, the Chinese Communist Party very obviously did not treat Stalin hagiographically and neither did the Yugoslavian group. My basic argument is that one should not downplay the 'agency' role of any activists or organizations on the basis of their programmatic alignment with other Comintern parties or organizations; social reality is more complex than that. I think that based on correspondence that I've read, Modotti was not primarily motivated by a specific "theoretical" position. For example, it doesn't appear that she was that familiar with Marx or Lenin when she emigrated to Moscow. Rather, her statements indicate an empathy for the poor and oppressed, and a sense that the injustice of that oppression should be opposed (and that certain groups were or could be instrumental in that). Kevincof (talk) 00:36, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree that the Chinese and Yugoslav CP's were able to pursue indpendent lines, BUT only after they had achieved a position of indpendence at the head of a state machine from which they were able challenge the dominance of the Soviet Bureaucracy within the Communist movement.

So more accurately my statement should read 'between 1927 and the mid-late 1940's.....' Ironically both Tito and Mao had been installed at the head of their parties as Moscow loyalists in the late 1920s after the defeat of oppositionist leaderships within their parties and the extermination/imprisonment of significant Left Oppositionist currents amongst the Yugoslav and Chinese CP activists in Russia, (see Ante Ciliga's 'Russian Enigma' and Wang Fan Hsi's 'Chinese Revolutionary: Memoirs 1919-1949' for graphi accounts of the process in both parties). Once installed they both unswervingly followed the twists and turns of the Comintern line throughout the 1930's, it was only when the interests of their particular national bureaucracies came into conflict with those of the Russian bureaucracy once they'd achieved state power that they discovered their disagreements with Stalin (incidentally, after Stalin had disbanded the Comintern at the behest of his British and American allies in 1943).

As to your comments about Tina, I'd largely agree, but then the political level amongst and capacity for independent political thinking of Comintern activists in the 1930's was appallingly low and few of them could be said to be 'familiar with Marx or Lenin' in the way that CP members had been in the early 1920's.

Supporting Diego's expulsion was an (I'd argue key) point in the process as a result of which by 1937-9 she was willing to knowingly stand by and witness, if not actively participate in, Vidali's role in the liquidation of many of the best fighters in the Spanish revolution (whether or not she later came to regret that, and I'd like to think she did). I also think that this was linked to her abandonment of art as a means of struggle. Green ribbon (talk) 07:30, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Final point: 'So too, the Chinese Communist Party very obviously did not treat Stalin hagiographically' Well actually, they did, their dispute with the Moscow 'revisionists' was that they'd abandoned Stalinism! Green ribbon (talk) 07:49, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I would be interested to learn (here or off-line) the (documentary) basis for your assertion that Modotti knew of or was active in Vidali's activities with the Fifth Regiment. As you may know, she chose not to return to Moscow from Spain, and she did not renew her ties with the Mexican CP upon her return to Mexico. I suggest that this reflects some type of critical analysis.

Regarding one of the other examples, many historians have commented on the divergence of the Chinese CP from the CPSU & Comintern following the failed attempts at urban insurrection and in regard to the CCP adopting a strategy grounded in a peasant-based political movement. While the record shows that there was little or no public criticism of Stalin during the 30s and 40s — and that in some parts of the world the penalty for same could be severe — documents made public since that time show that Chinese communists did have significant political and ideological differences with 'Stalinism' in various areas. One document that comes to mind is "A critique of Soviet economics" which is attributed to Mao Tsetung (1977, Monthly Review Press), in which he/they criticize (specifically CPSU) 'personnel of the Party and the state, beset by bureaucratism ... using the machinery of the state to take arbitrary action ... violating Party and state democracy.'Kevincof (talk) 04:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, fair questions Kevin, and I'd an concede an element of validity in your points about the CCP I'm highly tempted to respond now but it would require the best part an hour of time which I haven't really got at the moment. I will reply here and if I haven't by the end of the week by all means remind me! Paul Green ribbon (talk) 09:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Modotti as photographer

The article concentrates mostly on the fact that Modotti hung out and/or slept with several prominent artists and leftist political figures of her time, which doesn't seem in itself all that significant to me.

The one accomplishment she seems to have, though, is her work as a photographer. I think this article needs a meaty section on that area of her life, especially since the web searches I've done on her all talk about her primarily as a photographer. I don't know too much about her life, so I'm hoping someone else with more knowledge of Modotti could write this (Carptrash? :-), but it's definitely the missing piece of the puzzle here, AFAIC.

--dablaze 18:08, Jan 16, 2005 (UTC)

Movies

Why was the movies list removed? Vandalism or was something wrong? I vote keep, if it comes down to democracy. Blair P. Houghton 21:52, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Italian-American activist

it appears that someone has added, and then another removed Modotti from this list. I figure that she does not really belong on it because she was never an American. Now a list of Italian - Mexican activists . . . . . . . . .......... Carptrash 17:33, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

broken external link to George Eastman House

http://www.eastman.org/ has no active link as given in the External links section as

  http://www.eastman.org/ar/strip87/htmlsrc3/modotti_sld00001.html

There are many iamges at modotti.com

Roger Moore's 2007 book "Obsidian 22" concerns 10 of her Oaxacan photos.

G. Robert Shiplett 15:42, 21 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grshiplett (talk • contribs)

Suggestion of separate gallery of photographs by Tina Modotti

I suggest that there be a separate gallery of photographs by Tina ModottiSmlarthist (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160304061516/https://www.kunsthauswien.com/en/exhibitions/archive/24-ausstellungs-archiv-2010/40-tina-modotti to https://www.kunsthauswien.com/en/exhibitions/archive/24-ausstellungs-archiv-2010/40-tina-modotti
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060628055725/http://eastman.org/ar/strip87/htmlsrc3/modotti_sld00001.html to http://www.eastman.org/ar/strip87/htmlsrc3/modotti_sld00001.html

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Category:Italian artists' models

I cut out the category Category:Italian artists' models because I am not aware of any Italian artists that Modotti modeled for. Feel free to convince me otherwise. Carptrash (talk) 20:34, 24 February 2018 (UTC)