Talk:Arzawa

Apasa, capital of Arzawa - etymology in Hittite

There are plenty of Hittite dictionaries and Lexicons online, I'd like to request someone add an etymology for Apasa after adding some of the sources that have researched the name, as Apasa and the later Greek word for the city seem closely related.

Hittite Etymological Dictionary Jaan Puhvel 1984 has appa- as uniformly related to "after" in a temporal sense', but Greek authors sometimes take it related to Ephor like Sparton's overseers.

As this is a harbor town, "looking after" may make more sense then "over seeing" and "see-er you see in landlocked capitals where the large hill is used as the name generator.

fyi - http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/hittite/en_lexique_hittite.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.42.179.151 (talk) 19:08, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Arzawa and Asia

- "Arzawa may be the origin for the name of the continent Asia."

Assuwa and Asia

- Not Arzawa, you're thinking of the other Luwian kingdom, Assuwa. It was Assuwa that gave its name to Asia.

- I agree. I have left the original quote in place for now, but have added Assuwa reference with original source.

- There is no indication Arzawa and Assuwa were separate kingdoms. Assuwa was the name of a coalition, and Arzawa may have been a successor state. Read Bryce (2005), Kelder (2010) and Cline (2013) for background on this. 2600:1702:28E0:EE0:70BE:C450:3FF6:69B1 (talk) 22:34, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Arzawa and Argos

- Was Argos that gave its name to Arzawa?

Note: The word "wa' means "land" in Hittite language.

- Was Bellerophon, the Corinthian prince of Greek Mythology, the same person with Uhhaziti, king of Arzawa?

- Was Arza-wa the "Argive land" (i.e. Achaean or Mycenean colonies), in Asia Minor (or else, Anatolia), in 16, 15, 14 centuries B.C. ?

- Was Madduwatta or Maddywattes, the Lukkan king of Arzawa (1360? B.C.) the same person with Jobates, the king of Lycia according to Greek Mythology?

- - Is exact the etymology, below ? :

Madduwatta < Maddu-watta < (Madd)u-watta < Uwatta < Ιοβάτα < Ιοβάτης (Jobates or Iobates)

- Was Piyama-Kurunta, Arzawean general and son of Uhhaziti, the king of Arzawa, the same person withHippolochus (= he who is leader of cavalry, in Greek), the first son of Bellerophon or with ("Pegasus (the Corinthian)", the mythical horse of Bellerophon?

Note:

Hippolochus = Hippus ( = horse, in Greek) + lochus ( = group of soldiers, in Greek).

--Ionn-Korr 11:31, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Answers and Critics

Altough English isn't my mother tongue, I have to make some corrections here:

-Argos and Arzawa are surely to be differentiated, not only are their names quite different, but also their locations are surely not identical. Altough the geography of the Arzawa-lands is difficult, it is sure that Arzawa must have been in West-Anatolia, and so cannot be identical with Argos.

It is also wrong that -wa means land in Hittite. utne or udne means land in Hittite. There is no meaning of -wa as a substantive in Hittite. I don't know where you got that idea from.

-Why should Bellerophon be identical with Uhha-Ziti?????

-The Madduwatta - Iobates etymology is surely incorrect, Madduwatta in Greek should be, as you said Mad(d)ya(t)tes

-The other identifications are all to be discarded. The Arzawan rulers cannot be identified with persons from Greek myths. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.60.63.76 (talk) 09:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

language about language

... the linguistic identity of Arzawa was predominantly Luwian ...

Does this mean anything other than "Arzawa's predominant language was Luwian"? If not, I'd change it to the more transparent wording. —Tamfang (talk) 20:53, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

well i guess no one else has a problem with it —Tamfang (talk) 21:36, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

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List a Arzawan kings as a complete mess!

The list of Arzawan kings is widely inaccurate (like many things that appear in Wiki's history articles). It could be fixed by resorting to few decent references, but until then, it's better just to delete it. 2600:1702:28E0:EE0:70BE:C450:3FF6:69B1 (talk) 22:44, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Location of Arzawa and Seha

I posted a short summary of Gander (2014). He's sort of offering a different picture of location. Y-barton (talk) 00:32, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

References

Removal of cited information

[[1]] It's weird to remove scholarship with the excuse that it's outdated. In fact there is not contradictory view on this one as such this can stay.Alexikoua (talk) 20:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Georgiev (1981) provides a specific possibility and there I see no problem if this one is mentioned here. By the way there is no scholarship that contradicts Georgiev's claim and as such claiming that this should be removed at any cost can be easilty considered disruptive editting.

In terms of linguistics there is indeed strong linguistic evidence that Greek speech was present in the LBA-era of western Anatolia as such the existence of a possible Mycenaean Greek equivalent term is a valid information and good to have. Alexikoua (talk) 20:22, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Georgiev (1981) claims:

"During the second half of the 2nd millennium B.C. the Argeians, the Achaeans, and the Danaans colonized several parts of the southwestern and southern coast of Asia Minor, as well as the island of Cyprus. At that time the Hittites knew of them by the names Ahhiyawa=(ἈχαιϜοί or) *Ἀχαί(ι)Ϝᾱ from *ἈχαιϜ-i̯ᾱ ‘the country of the ἈχαιϜοί, and Arzawa (Arzauwa). Hidden in the name Arzawa is probably the late Mycenaean (= Cyprian) form of the name *ἈρζειϜᾱ < *Ἀργ(ε)ēϜ-i̯ᾱ ‘the land of the Argeians’, a derivative of the ethnicon *Ἀργεεύς ‘inhabitant of Argos’ or of the ethni-con itself *ἈρζεϜēς from *Ἀργ(ε)-ēϜ-ες ‘inhabitants of Argos’.15 The same form was preserved in Latin: Argīvī originates from *ἈργειϜοι ‘inhabitants of Ἀργεια, a derivative of *Ἀργ-ειϜᾱ < *Ἀργ(ε)-ēϜ-i̯ᾱ ‘the country of the *Ἀργ(ε)-ēϜ-ες. The towns of Ἄργος in Caria and Ἄργειόπολις in Cilicia are the traces of the Argeian colonies (= Arzawa) in Asia Minor."

Now, the name Arzawiya is attested since the reign of the Hittite king Ḫattušili I (1650–1620), which directly contrasts Georgiev's speculations about the second half of the 2nd millennium BC, who bases them on numerous dubious reconstructed terms. Furthermore, in recent bibliography no scholar supports that "Arzawa = Argean colonies" conjectured by Georgiev on the basis of the above mentioned dubious linguistic reconstructions. And the claim "At that time the Hittites knew of them [the Argeians, the Achaeans, and the Danaans] by the name Ahhiyawa ..., and Arzawa (Arzauwa)" is purely incorrect. WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims require exceptional sources, not outdated publications like Georgiev's. If you find new academic sources that support it, feel free to restore your addition. – Βατο (talk) 22:20, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't be against including a mention of Georgiev's proposal. However, we would need more than a single source from the 1980s to justify reporting it as a probable truth in Wikivoice. Botterweg14 (talk) 23:05, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Exactly, this conclusion by Georgiev needs to be stated since the author passes wp:RS. Bato needs to take a deep breath and avoid pretenting that this is WP:EXTRAORDINARY since the region of Arzawa was in direct contact with that of Mycenaean Greece.Alexikoua (talk) 02:14, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Bato's rationale has serious problems and appears to be just unexplained personal assumptions:

Error 1: the name Arzawiya is attested since the reign of the Hittite king Ḫattušili I (1650–1620), which directly contrasts Georgiev's speculations about the second half of the 2nd millennium BC-> claims that there is bibliography that contradicts Georgiev's view but there is no contradicting view presented. I'm afraid that there is no scholarship that's against this view especially when Georgiev's linguistic construction finds a possible equivalent term in the adjacent Greek speech of the 2nd millenium BC. Well it's not bad to have it in the article.

Error 2: bases them on numerous dubious reconstructed terms: Yet again a personal opinion without providing bibliography that contradicts this view. What's exactly dubious? You need to provide supporting bibliography not just personal speculations.

Error 3: WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims require exceptional sources, not outdated publications like Georgiev's: extraordinary why? Georgiev is RS, on the other hand you need to present something that contradicts this view, as such there is no reason for it to be removed. After all it's stated that linguist Georgiev proposed a possible equivalent term and it's not bad at all.

We need to rely on scholarship not simply claiming that a scholar falls into WP:EXTRAORDINARY without presenting any bibliography that contradicts this view. Our personal opinion isn't enough to turn sholarship (Georgiev in this case) into WP:EXTRAORDINARY in order to have him removed.Alexikoua (talk) 02:31, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

@Botterweg14: it would still be WP:UNDUE for that section, and it would require accurate wording to explain every conjectural contradiction made by Georgiev (1981) to make the content balanced, including appropriate sourcing. The editor who added this content selected and included only those parts provided by Georgiev that seem to be less dubious, but overall, the hypothesis is inaccurate. The actual attestation of the name occurred during the reign of Hittite king Ḫattušili I in the period 1650–1620 (Bryce 2009, p. 74), and it is considered an Anatolian name (Younger & 2016 383), while Georgiev (1981) hypothetically claims that "During the second half of the 2nd millennium B.C. the Argeians, the Achaeans, and the Danaans colonized several parts of the southwestern and southern coast of Asia Minor, as well as the island of Cyprus. At that time the Hittites knew of them by the names Ahhiyawa ..., and Arzawa (Arzauwa)" and that "The towns of Ἄργος in Caria and Ἄργειόπολις in Cilicia are the traces of the Argeian colonies (= Arzawa) in Asia Minor.", i.e. that the name Arzawa, which he speculatively equates with Argeians, spread with Mycenean colonization in the 2nd half of the 2nd millennium BC, but the name was already present in Anatolia in the 17th century BC (Bryce 2009, p. 74). Georgiev's hypothesis is based on such assumptions as "At that time the Hittites knew of them by the names Ahhiyawa ..., and Arzawa", which is completely erroneous given what present-day sources support: the content of the article as well as current scholarship do not relate the names Ahhiyawa (Myceneans) with Arzawa (Anatolians), and do not relate their populations, as Arzawa is regarded today to have been inhabited either by Luwians, Carians or Lydians, all Anatolian-speaking peoples, not by Mycenean- or Greek-speaking populations as assumed by Georgiev (1981). If User:Alexikoua is so confident of the accuracy of Georgiev's speculations, he certainly won't have trouble finding recent sources that discuss those hypothetical claims put forward around half a century ago. Otherwise, they are evidently not worth of inclusion. – Βατο (talk) 10:01, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Bato: please avoid abstract arguments here: your claim that it's considered an Anatolian name does not contradict that there is a (late-era) Mycenaean equivalent on this name since Arzawa & Mycenaean Greece were in close contact all that time. Arzawa is regarded today to have been inhabited either by Luwians, Carians or Lydians? What has this to do with the obsession to get rid of the Mycenaean equivalent of the name? You are also falsifying T. Bryce who states that a late-Mycenaean collonization is a possibility in Cilicia see: Trevor Bryce, The land of Hiyawa (Que) revisited, Anatolian Studies 66 (2016): 74b, there is a strong tradition in Quwê and Hilaku, Hiyawa < Achaea connection [[2]] indded. Please provide precise points with supportive bibliography on why you feel that this is not a good addition in Arzawa. To sum up:

1. there is no reason to remove the possibility of a Mycenaean equivalent term.
2. Bato needs to present scholarship that questions the *ἈρζειϜᾱ < *Ἀργ(ε)ēϜ-i̯ᾱ connection. Alexikoua (talk) 17:36, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:Burden, including this claim would require appropriate sourcing. For reasons Βατο has explained, appropriate sourcing would mean more than a single citation from the 1980s. Omitting a claim does not require a counter-source. Botterweg14 (talk) 18:55, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Botterweg14: Αs I see Georgiev who is a widely known linguist on the field by the way isn't the only one that supports this link. Just by reading some Hittite related articles (Lukka lands) I saw this book: Mosetto, Mario (20 March 2018). Origins of European Peoples: Part One: Ancient History. AuthorHouse. ISBN 978-1-5462-8425-3. and it reads: Argos' inhabitants are the Argives, name that can be very well compared to the Hittite name of Arzawa's land in western Anatolia. Georgiev isn't definitely the only one that supports a possible linguistic connection with the name Argos. Alexikoua (talk) 22:16, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: that's not WP:RS, it is a self-published book by AuthorHouse, and the author is a retired lawyer. You are an experienced editor and you should have known it, but evidently you have not found better than that. – Βατο (talk) 22:46, 3 June 2023 (UTC)