Talk:John Jacob Astor IV

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Estate/Net Worth[edit]

I have edited some numbers regarding his net worth and his sons inheritance to reflect a 1914 New York Times article. I am not sure if the dollar amounts given in the article include the value of his stocks.

Links are broken (2004-12-20)

Removed line:

"Astor’s body was found partially crushed and mangled. He is believed to have been hit by a collapsing funnel"
This oft repeated factoid appears to be inaccurate when compared to accounts from persons who actually saw Astor's body. Historian George Behe has written an online article regarding the issue [1]--Wurmis 18:28, 9 April 2006 (UTC) John Jacob Astor IV is the owner of Waldorf-Astoria Hotel in New York City[reply]

Comment[edit]

Because I recently edited this article and Madeleine Force's article, I was just asked via e-mail if the photo of the Astors was Photoshopped because it looks unrealistic. Strangely, I know the answer to this, and it's "no": it was manipulated, but decades before Photoshop was invented. It wasn't unusual in the 1910s for developers working for newspapers to edit photos in the darkroom; although their techniques were primitive (and usually obvious to us), the changed photos often went unnoticed at the time. This image is specifically mentioned as having been manipulated in two books on the Titanic I own. It's not the only Titanic-related photo to be manipulated in such a way, either. There's a photo of the ship itself out there that's been just as badly manipulated - it's supposed to be an image of the ship at Cherbourg with all its lights blazing, but in reality the ship reached Cherbourg long before sunset - the "lights" were created in some newspaper darkroom, I suppose to make it seem more dramatic.

I thought I'd mention this on this talk page and on Madeleine Astor's in case anyone else was wondering. --NellieBly (talk) 00:42, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The following section has almost been completely been copied directly from "I Survived the Sinking of the Titanic," published in the "Awake" magazine, October 22 issue, p. 6. Published by Jehovah's Witnesses: "A middle-aged gentleman was with his very young, pregnant wife. He helped her into the lifeboat, then looked back to the deck and saw others wanting to get aboard. He kissed his wife good-bye, and, returning to the deck, grabbed the first person in his path. Fortunately, the young boy (12 years old at the time) was there in the right place at the right time and was put into the lifeboat." I'd like to edit the page to add the reference but don't know how. Can someone else do this to give where credit is due? --pstazaki, 21:23, 6 May 2010 JPN time —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pstazaki (talk • contribs)

Children[edit]

John Jacob Astor IV married 1st 1891 (div.1910) Ava Lowle Willing (1868-1958), married 2nd 1911 Madeleine Talmadge Force (1893-1940). He had 2 children from his 1st and one son from his 2nd marriage:

1. (William) Vincent Astor (1891-1959) (no issue) m.1st 1914 (div) Helen Dinsmore Huntington, m.2nd 1940 (div 1953) Mary Benedict Cushing, m.3rd 1953 Mary Brooke Russell Marshall (1905-2007)

2. Alice Ava Muriel Astor (1902-1956) m.1st 1924 (div.1932) Sergei Platonovitch, Prince Obolensky-Neledinsky-Meletzky (1890-1978), m.2nd ca.1933 (div.before 1939) Raimund Hoffmann, Edler von Hofmannsthal, m.3rd 1940 (div.before 1946) Philip Harding, m.4th 1946 (div.1952) David Pleydell-Bouverie, of the earls of Radnor (*1911) She had 2 children from the 1st, one daughter from the 2nd and 3rd marriage each: 

  1. Iwan Sergeievitch, Prince Obolensky-Neledinsky-Meletzky (*1925)  (4 children from the 1st marriage)
       m.1st 1949 (div 1956) Claire McGinnis (*1929), 
       m.2nd 1959 Mary Elizabeth Morris (*1934)
  2. Princess Sylvia Sergeievna Obolensky (1931-1997)  (3 children from the 2nd marriage)
       m.1st 1950 (div 1957) Jonkheer Jean Louis Ghislain Pierre Walter Ganshof van der Meersch (1927-1982), 
       m.2nd 1957 (div 1963) Azamat Kadir Sultan Guirey (1924-2001)
  3. Romana Hoffmann, Edle von Hofmannsthal (*1936), m.1958 Roderick [of the baronets] McEwen (1932-1982) (4 children)
  4. Edwina Harding (* ca 1942)

3. John Jacob Astor VI (1912-1992). m.1st 1934 (div 1943) Ellen Tuck French (*1916), m.2nd 1946 (div 1954) Gertrude Gretsch, m.3rd 1954 Dolores Fullman (*1929), m.4th Sue Sandford; who predeceased him, circa 1985. He had one son from the 1st, and one daughter from the 2nd marriage: 

  1. William Backhouse Astor III (*1935), married Charlotte Fisk (2 children)
  2. Jacqueline Astor (*1949), m.1984 John Nicholas Drexel IV (*1945) (1 son)

Death[edit]

According to Children on the Titanic (2014) - a TV Documentary starring Holly Steel, Lord Astor was about to board the life boat with his wife, but he saw two children scared on deck so stepped aside for them and subsequently died as the life boat involved was the last. Is anybody able to find a citation for this? Grez868 (talk) 02:36, 1 March 2015 (UTC) |Edit - the documentary is available on Hulu Plus if anybody wants to see it for verification.[reply]

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:John Jacob Astor IV/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

On April 14, YahooNews.com (Reuters)reported that the Passenger Lists for the Titanic were made available to the public for the first time on http://findmypast.com. The public may examine the lists for free for one week. I examined all 27 pages of the lists for passengers boarding the Titanic at Southhampton on 10 April 1912. I found no passenger with the Astor surname among the passengers boarding at Southhampton. American passengers traveling first-class are listed on pages 14-16 of the lists. Further, no passenger with the surname Astor was listed among the 11 American passengers boarding the vessel at Queenstown on 13 April 1912. All 11 of these passengers were shown as traveling "third-class." If John Jacob Astor went down with the Titanic, why was his name not included on the vessel's passenger lists? ExFed 00:18, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 00:18, 15 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 20:14, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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J J Astor IV - Science Fiction Author[edit]

The main article states - "Among Astor's accomplishments was A Journey in Other Worlds (1894), a science-fiction novel about life in the year 2000 on the planets Saturn and Jupiter.[7]" Footnote 7 states - "Foster, John Wilson (2002). The Age of Titanic: Cross-Currents in Anglo-American Culture. In Arthur C. Clarke's "The Ghost from the Grand Banks"ISBN 0-575-04906-5 published in 1990, in its Chapter 9, in the supposed text of a letter to the Editor of The Times (penned at some time in reply to another letter published on 7 April 1915) Clarke's presumably fictional correspondent refers to J.J. Astor IV as "certainly the richest writer of science fiction who ever lived - a fact which may well mortify admirers of the late L. Ron Hubbard, should any exist." By way of my commentary, WHO was the richest such author attributable to their books' income, will remain a completely different matter. (Entirely coincidentally, and arguably irrelevantly, at this time, in December 2020, Saturn and Jupiter are visually juxtaposed closely, viewed from Earth.)49.195.225.225 (talk) 04:38, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Failed Citation[edit]

Source 34, which consists of 4 pages from Titanic: End of a Dream and is the source for much of the Legacy section, does not verify the statements in Legacy.

"Astor's prominence led to the creation of many exaggerated and unsubstantiated accounts about his actions during the sinking of the Titanic. One story alleges that he opened the ship's kennel and released the dogs, including his own beloved Airedale, Kitty; in another, he placed a woman's hat on a boy to make sure the child was able to get into a lifeboat. Another legend claims that after the ship hit the iceberg, he quipped, "I asked for ice, but this is ridiculous." These stories appeared in newspapers, magazines, and even books about the sinking. In reality, none of the claims about Astor's actions were substantiated, as nobody who recognized him survived other than the women who boarded lifeboats relatively early on.(34) Wade wrote that the ice joke is almost certainly apocryphal, as Astor was not known for making jokes, and that the story about the hat (like many other "survivor stories" published shortly after the sinking) may have been invented by the reporter.(34)"

p. 70-73 do not verify this. They scarcely mention John J. Astor and do not confront the rumors about his behavior before death. The ice joke is not mentioned, nor is it said that unsubstantiated rumors "appeared in newspapers, magazines and even books."

You can see for yourself here: https://archive.org/details/titanicendofdrea00wade/page/70/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/titanicendofdrea00wade/page/72/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/titanicendofdrea00wade/page/74/mode/2up

Until a proper citation is found, I'm removing the unsourced statements from the Legacy section. Woozybydefault (talk) 14:13, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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