Talk:Kind of Blue

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Good articleKind of Blue has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 22, 2008Good article nomineeListed
February 5, 2012Good article reassessmentKept
On this day...Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on August 17, 2009, and August 17, 2010.
Current status: Good article

GA Reassessment[edit]

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Kind of Blue/GA3. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

The "Release history" has been tagged as needing more references since February 2010. I'm surprised no one has instigated a GAR yet. howcheng {chat} 17:40, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Please tag If you place more specific {{cn}} tags on certain claims that you feel are unverified, it will be easy to resolve this. For now, this should help. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 18:24, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
I didn't apply the refimprove tag in the first place, but having an orange-level maintenance tag is incongruous with GA status. howcheng {chat} 21:10, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
  • I sourced several statements when I could find the information in the sources, and I removed one sentence and a list that I could not source. (This removal should not affect the article's completeness in any way.) I removed the {{refimprove}} tag as a result. I think this should clear up all issues. – Quadell (talk) 13:15, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Keep as references added.--♫GoP♫TCN 16:41, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Forgive a new commenter - The pitchfork rating for Kind of Blue as 6.6/10 is clearly directed as a review of the reissue not the actual album. This misleadingly presents the content of the review. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.176.64.36 (talk) 00:25, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

RIAA, platinum jazz album[edit]

Relevant comments about this album at Talk:Time Out (album)#RIAA's first Platinum jazz album?. Dan56 (talk) 23:56, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

References[edit]

The references 11, and 12 refer to the page 299 of Ashley Kahn´s Kind of Blue: The Making of the Miles Davis Masterpiece., but the Kahn book with the IBSN mentioned has only 224 pages according to Amazon. -- Trou Noir (talk) 12:08, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Needs some editing/condensing[edit]

Not to denigrate this great album, but the article says it's considered "one of the greatest albums of all time" about half a dozen times throughout the text. Okay, we get it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:643:8101:6A37:791E:365D:CD23:EE4B (talk) 18:41, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

My "greatest" count reaches 10. But a shame, in my view, that we can't turn it Up to eleven. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:46, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
I removed one "greatest" as it appeared redundant in its given section. The others seem appropriate, given the contexts in which they appear (even if do appear to some as being overly numerous).--JayJasper (talk) 18:55, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Description of the recording artist for this album[edit]

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
On assigning due weightage to all the opinions presented in the discussion, the consensus is to include American jazz trumpeter.His main prominence is as a trumpeter and NYA's argument is good enough.Winged Blades Godric 17:44, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

In light of a recent edit war--*sighhhhhh*..... Should the existing description of Miles Davis in the opening sentence of the lead--"American jazz trumpeter, composer, and bandleader"--be reduced to "American jazz musician"? Dan56 (talk) 18:52, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Votes[edit]

  • No - "Musician" is vague--obviously the opening line for any album article will be this is an album by some fucking "musician" of some sort--and it doesn't hurt the prose in any way by adding a few extra words that actually give the reader some useful information about this album's artist. You know, some clue as to what his role is? Dan56 (talk) 18:52, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Change to just "American jazz trumpeter" - in the jazz genre, basically any musician of any renown whatsoever is going to be de facto a bandleader and composer at times, so putting those words here doesn't really add any useful information. Korny O'Near (talk) 16:24, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
  • American jazz trumpeter. A walk through the list of Featured album articles shows that simpler descriptions are the norm (indeed, it's nearly unanimous judging by the two dozen or so that I checked). And despite the proposer's statement to the contrary, it does hurt the prose to add all that extra verbiage. NewYorkActuary (talk) 03:23, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
  • "American jazz trumpeter" per Korny O'Near and NewYorkActuary. The sentence is verbose with all three. AndrewOne (talk) 12:39, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
  • "American jazz musician" or * "American jazz trumpeter" We don't go around prefacing people's names with every role they've every taken up. For instance, if an article mentions Paul Krugman, it might state simply "According to Paul Krugman,.." or perhaps, "According to economist Paul Krugman, ...". It should not state "According to economics professor, Nobel prize winner, and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman, ...". LK (talk) 06:13, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
  • That's a false equivalency; an entire article in which the musician is discussed everywhere in relation to the topic begs for more context of that musician's relevant roles; Davis' role as a bandleader was more prominent than his role as a trumpeter on Agharta, for instance. Dan56 (talk) 16:49, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
  • And you should feel entirely free to cite that prominence to a reliable source within the article. He is first and foremost an American jazz trumpeter. As an aside, I wish people would stop over-using the phrase "false equivalency"; 9 times out of 10 it is used incorrectly, and pisses me the fuck off, being the grammar barbarian I am. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:16, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Most sources discussing Agharta--and his other electric-period work, for that matter--do this. And on what other occasion have I used the phrase?? Dan56 (talk) 09:40, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Look at the weight of the references that note him as a jazz musician and trumpeter and balance those against those refs that emphasize another part of his career; which will make it easier to decide what he is primarily known for and as. Secondly, I must extend my apologies to you; I don't know if you have used "false equivalency" before. I just now it is madly overused by people who misapply it, and my gag reflex kicks in any time someone uses it outside of its legal and political usages. Mea Culpa. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:18, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
  • American jazz musician is more accurate to encompass his whole body of work outside of trumpet performance Wolfson5 (talk) 01:19, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
  • The average reader isn't familiar with his whole body of work, if it's even relevant to this article. Dan56 (talk) 01:59, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
  • American jazz musician - Since musician encompasses all three titles. Meatsgains (talk) 23:55, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
  • It encompasses those three titles specifically? Because if not, it's open ended and too ambiguous to be of any use to a reader not familiar with Davis. Dan56 (talk) 11:44, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
  • No. Miles Davis is notable for all three musical roles. If we need to reduce verbosity, American jazz trumpeter is preferred, as he's most notable for this. Using the word "musician" instead of "trumpeter" sacrifices information while gaining nothing in return. ReverendWayne (talk) 20:06, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
  • American jazz trumpeter. Yes the guy was so much more. Yes the guy was a genius. But these three words sum up his general notability, expecially in the context of this album. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:19, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

@Korny O'Near:, I'm sure jazz aficionados will find it unnecessary, but these articles are aimed at the layperson "People who read Wikipedia have different backgrounds, education and opinions. Make your article accessible and understandable for as many readers as possible. Assume readers are reading the article to learn. It is possible that the reader knows nothing about the subject, so the article needs to explain the subject fully." And otherwise music fans who know nothing of jazz--since it's dying in the mainstream--won't consider the artist of the album the de facto composer; they'll just as likely assume he doesn't write what he plays. Perhaps ditching "bandleader" only, since it's suggested in the following sentences' discussion of "Davis's sextet"? Dan56 (talk) 17:17, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Okay, but just because he's a composer doesn't mean that he wrote the material on this album. (Or on any of his albums; it could be that he only composed for others.) So if the goal is to clarify that he wrote the songs on this album, that's the wrong way to go about it. Korny O'Near (talk) 17:50, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
It would certainly suggest it, strongly. Just as saying he's a trumpeter would suggest he played trumpet on this album. Dan56 (talk) 18:49, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
And I would suggest just as strongly that we follow almost every other article about jazz albums and keep the lead succint. LK (talk) 06:09, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
There's a thin line between succinct and scant that you're failing to see. There's also the fact that every article is different and your idea of a "succinct" opening description will be less sufficient at one article than it would at another. Dan56 (talk) 16:50, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Alerted by RfC bot. I'm not sure why "bandleader" is used in his WP page; every group has a band leader. Specifying what notable role he had would be best, if applicable (e.g., lead singer, lead trumpeter in an ensemble, etc), otherwise 'bandleader' is superfluous. So I would certainly not add it here. For an article on any recording, mention only what the artist is most notable for in the lead intro. If that is composing and playing trumpet, then "American jazz trumpeter and composer" suffices. Whether or not he wrote songs on the album is irrelevant to his notability as a composer (if he is indeed notable as a composer). Lapadite (talk) 03:20, 17 May 2017 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

External links modified[edit]

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RfC: What material should be included in the lead paragraph?[edit]

The consensus is to support the restoration.

Cunard (talk) 00:52, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recently, the paragraphs in the lead were rearranged by Lawrencekhoo, so that information about the album's release date, recording, and the musician's concept for the album were replaced in the first paragraph with information about how the album has been critically received, accolades, and so forth. Lawrencekhoo cited the guideline that the lead should establish notability of the topic. In restoring the original layout, I cited MOS:LEAD which says the lead paragraph "should establish the context in which the topic is being considered by supplying the set of circumstances or facts that surround it," and in my opinion, critical opinions are not facts. The practice throughout WP:ALBUMS articles appears to prioritize the original layout here, but admittedly my opinion is not a strong one when reading: "The notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. Like in the body of the article itself, the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources." So I'm not sure. Dan56 (talk) 14:34, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Votes[edit]

  • Support the restoration. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:36, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support the restoration. By the way, Dan56, you did the right thing by taking this to RfC. It was a good way to prevent an edit war. (Summoned by bot) -- I dream of horses  If you reply here, please ping me by adding {{U|I dream of horses}} to your message  (talk to me) (My edits) @ 19:40, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support the restoration via the rationale above. Summoned by a bot. Comatmebro (talk) 21:18, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

  • MOS discusses a limited (1-2 sentences) discussion of notability. So while I agree that some discussion should exist, I think the current version is excessive and should be substantially reduced. Run-on sentences should not be used to get around the limit. Even a non-musical person like me understands the notability of this album, so I can't imagine this should take more than a sentence.--Rpclod (talk) 13:13, 19 September 2018 (UTC)(Summoned by bot)
  • (Summoned by bot) Per Rpclods' comment above, I went ahead and added a category to the RfC to widen the net a bit.  I dream of horses  If you reply here, please ping me by adding {{U|I dream of horses}} to your message  (talk to me) (My edits) @ 19:37, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reverse the pianist credits?[edit]

This seems very contorted:

 pianist Wynton Kelly, ... with former band pianist Bill Evans appearing on most of the tracks in place of Kelly

Shouldn't it be something like:

pianist Bill Evans with new pianist Wynton Kelly appearing on one track.

- Immigrant laborer (talk) 16:15, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Compact disc track numbering[edit]

I can see that you believe it should be noted that if an album had tracks one to five on side one and tracks one to four on side two, then it should be announced in the track listing section that the compact disc is numbered it tracks one through nine. I'm sorry but I feel that this little tag placed at the bottom of every track listing scans terribly on the page, and indeed insults the reader's intelligence. Since a compact disc has no sides, of course the track listing format does not indicate any, so tracks are numbered through rather than broken up into sides with side two starting off at one again. I don't think that needs to be reiterated. PJtP (talk) 02:31, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Which reader? The teenage reader who "accounts for only seven percent of CD sales", if they even buy and know what a CD is? Dan56 (talk) 04:23, 2 September 2019 (UTC)