Talk:Calvinism
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On 6 March 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Reformed Protestantism. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Only State Church?[edit]
Is the Tuvalu church the only Calvinist state church? What about the Church of Scotland? If I knew with any authority I’d propose the change. Powerlad (talk) 05:44, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, this statement is unsourced and dubious. The Church of Scotland has an official status as Scotland's national church. Ltwin (talk) 00:02, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- I took out the claim that it is the only established Calvinist church in the world. Ltwin (talk) 00:04, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Francis Turretin?[edit]
Turretin is noted as a Calvinist theologian on his entry, but he is not listed here under 'influential' Calvinist theologians. Should he be added? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:3C5:4000:50F0:39EF:A8AD:A6BD:DBCC (talk) 18:25, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Part of the issue is that we only have the categories of Reformers/20th century/contemporary, and Turretin was post-Reformed. If we go broader we can also include John Owen, Jonathan Edwards, and Charles Hodge. StAnselm (talk) 18:35, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
Reformed Baptists[edit]
@Jarebare555 has decided to exclude references to "Reformed Baptists" from the article with this edit and this edit. Jarebare555, do you have any sources that exclude Reformed Baptists from the Calvinist family? The names you removed were supported with sources as being part of the "New Calvinism". Ltwin (talk) 18:41, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- My sources would be all of the non-Lutheran reformers and Reformed confessions, as well as the historical fact that Baptists never referred to themselves as "Reformed" till recently. "Calvinist" is an overly broad and unhelpful term as the article itself states. Baptists have a different tradition and disagree with all the Reformed on key issues of doctrine. "Particular Baptist" is much more accurate to describe what was called "Reformed Baptist" in the article. But again, they are not Reformed as considering one to be Reformed based on their adherence to the 5 Doctrines of Grace is insultingly reductive. Jarebare555 (talk) 18:47, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Jarebare555: You've cited no sources. You need a secondary source (and probably more that alone, considering there are already sources cited in the article that support exactly the opposite). With no source, it's "original research", which we do not do here (see WP:NOR). You MUST directly support anything added to the article that conflict with your change. Please make sure you understand WP:RS and how to cite a source. If not, seek assistance. ButlerBlog (talk) 18:51, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- https://heidelblog.net/2021/06/in-the-wake-of-the-sbc-baptists-are-neither-reformed-nor-calvinist/
- https://heidelblog.net/2019/06/resources-on-defining-reformed/
- The latter link contains about 50 sources, including:
- Books and Chapters
- Recovering the Reformed Confession (Phillipsburg: P&R Publishing, 2008).
- “A House of Cards? A Response to Bingham, Cribben, and Caughey,” in Matthew Bingham, Chris Caughey, R. Scott Clark, Crawford Gribben, and D. G. Hart, On Being Reformed: Debates Over a Theological Identity (London: Palgrave-Pivot, 2018), 69–89. Jarebare555 (talk) 19:07, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- On Being Reformed: Debates Over a Theological Identity is literally a discussion about how the "Reformed" identity is contested. The author of Chapter 2 says the term "Reformed Baptists" "does not imply any logical inconsistency". Ltwin (talk) 19:25, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- So far, I don't see much in Jarebare555's list that would acceptable to many editors. While I would accept Clark as reliable, citing his blog is questionable. And Collin Hansen's book (which Clark notes) is full of just as lettered men that disagree directly with Clark's position. So one man's opinion isn't enough to state as hard fact (were you to apply it as attribution, that would be another matter).
The latter link contains about 50 sources
: Most of those are links to his own blog, others are links to other blogs. Generally, blogs are not citable as a source. There's not enough editorial oversight. But beyond that, just dropping that here doesn't do much. Are you saying you don't know how to cite a source? Or is it that you want someone to do it for you? ButlerBlog (talk) 19:29, 16 May 2023 (UTC)- I could cite all kinds of primary sources to make a case, but as the leaders of the Reformed faith were more concerned with actually reforming the church, you won't find Calvin defining "reformed" in the way you're asking. And I've already been told that for me to make a case based on what is distinct about Reformed theology and Baptist theology and where all the reformers stood, would be to engage in "original research." Two of the major distinctions of Reformed theology compared to Baptist theology are the sacraments (especially paedobaptism) and the covenants. The reformers were entirely united on the former and, as far as I know, on the latter as well.
- So, if you're asking for a source from the 16th century that says "Baptists aren't Reformed," that would be egregiously anachronistic, as the Anabaptists never claimed to be Reformed or Calvinist, and the Particular Baptists of the British Isles were not extant.
- Also, a simple comparison between the Reformed confessions (e.g., Heidelberg) and the 1689 would easily dissuade a silly notion of them being in line on some of the most essential points. But, again, I guess that would be "original research." Jarebare555 (talk) 22:04, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Jarebare555, please read Wikipedia:Reliable sources if you'd like more information on what counts as reliable sources in Wikipedia. Essentially, what we look for is reliable secondary sources. Ltwin (talk) 23:25, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
I could cite all kinds of primary sources to make a case
We don't want primary sources for exactly the reason you noted:you won't find Calvin defining "reformed" in the way you're asking
. To arrive at that conclusion from a primary source would be synthesis of a conclusion, which is what original research is. If I wasn't clear, you need secondary sources; but they need to be sources that meet the standards of reliable sources (which, as noted, blogs as self-published sources, are not). Additionally, you probably have the added hurdle here that you may need to attribute statements to the specific source, since there exists more than one singular position (i.e. you're going to get a different position from Clark than say, Collin Hansen). ButlerBlog (talk) 23:25, 16 May 2023 (UTC)- Ah, gotcha. You said "You need a secondary source (and probably more that alone...)." I took this to mean at least secondary sources, i.e., secondary and primary sources. It now occurs to me that "that alone" was probably meant to be "than one" instead of "than that alone." I thought you were being self-contradictory, but it was just me misreading a typo. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Jarebare555 (talk) 00:13, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
- @Jarebare555: You've cited no sources. You need a secondary source (and probably more that alone, considering there are already sources cited in the article that support exactly the opposite). With no source, it's "original research", which we do not do here (see WP:NOR). You MUST directly support anything added to the article that conflict with your change. Please make sure you understand WP:RS and how to cite a source. If not, seek assistance. ButlerBlog (talk) 18:51, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
"Reformed Christianity" the better title, "Calvinism" a nuanced alternative[edit]
I would like to revisit this topic after catching up on the discussion in March 2022.
It is my judgment that "Reformed Christianity" is the more appropriate name. This article is devoted to the "major branch of Protestantism", as opposed to other branches like Lutheranism or Anglicanism.
My rationale:
- "Calvinist" is not the term that the churches of this tradition name themselves, they use the term "reformed" (e.g. Reformed Church of France, Reformed Church in Hungary, Reformed Church in America etc.) or they identify by their reformed subgroup (e.g. Presbyterian, Congregationalist). See Category:Reformed denominations by continent.
- "Calvinism" is too often used in reference to the theology, especially the five points. This is a narrower topic than the branch of the Christian tradition. I would even say "calvinism" usually has the five points in view.
- One previous opponent to the move notes use in Britannica, Oxford Bibliographies and The Canadian Encyclopedia, but these sources discuss "theology" and "ideas", not the "major branch" in view by this article. That definition better fits the article Theology of John Calvin.
- "Calvinism" is strictly speaking misleading and anachronistic given the scope of this article. Zwingli, Bucer and others were part of this identifiable movement prior to Calvin's involvement. The Zwinglian tradition arguably stands opposed to the Calvinist tradition, yet under the same reformed umbrella. This is the general usage preferred in historical theology when discussing their competing views of the sacrament.
The bulk of the opposition in prior discussion seems to be focused on the fact that "calvinism" is the more common word in English, but I fail to see how that is relevant. NGram doesn't tell you how the term is being used, just that it is.
Options:
- Simple: Retitle (move) the article and flip the opening sentence
- Reformed Christianity, also called Calvinism, is a major branch of Protestantism that follows the theological tradition and forms of Christian practice set down by John Calvin and various other Reformation-era theologians.
- Complex: Refocus this article on calvinist theology (also not striclty synonymous with reformed theology). Begin a new article devoted to the "major branch of protestantism" titled Reformed Christianity.
Dirkwillems (talk) 02:03, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support: Denominations in this camp identify as adhering to Reformed theology (such as the Reformed Church in America or the Dutch Reformed Church). Calvinism is the soteriological position of the historic Reformed Churches. I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 02:39, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
- Regrettable oppose: Denominationally, Calvinism is more precise than Reformed, as the latter term can also refer to some more lowercase-C catholic Protestants. It's frustrating because Reformed is absolutely the right word, but it's an imprecise one. Calvinism is used colloquially enough to be common and is also more accurate. Open to being convinced otherwise on this! ~ Pbritti (talk) 05:12, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Pbritti Is this article focused on what you understand to be the precise meaning of "Calvinism?" Note that the article already distinguishes between "Calvinist" and "Arminian" subgroups within the reformed tradition in the etymology section. Dirkwillems (talk) 15:08, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support: This article covers Reformed Christianity as a whole, which is more than simply Calvinism, and thus the "lesser" precision (for lack of a better description) is more appropriate. Leaving the title as it is requires @Dirkwillems suggestion of refocusing this article on strictly Calvinist theology (which is already covered in Theology of John Calvin). ButlerBlog (talk) 12:18, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
Requested move 28 March 2024[edit]
It has been proposed in this section that Calvinism be renamed and moved to Reformed Christianity. A bot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}} . Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. |
Calvinism → Reformed Christianity – This article is devoted to the "major branch of Protestantism", not the narrower subjects of Calvinist theology like the five points or the personal Theology of John Calvin, the latter more often and appropriately called "Calvinism." "Reformed" is the broader name for the tradition preferred in the academy and among the churches themselves. Please see recent discussion on talk page. NGram is less helpful than usual because these terms have varied uses. Dirkwillems (talk) 19:43, 28 March 2024 (UTC) Dirkwillems (talk) 19:42, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support per nom. Calvinism is the theology of John Calvin, for which we already have an article. The requested change more accurately describes what is covered in the article, which is far more broad than simply Calvinism. ButlerBlog (talk) 20:08, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
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