Talk:Ion Luca Caragiale

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Former good article nomineeIon Luca Caragiale was a Language and literature good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 11, 2010Good article nomineeNot listed

Ottoman Empire[edit]

...Wallachia, in the Ottoman Empire...

Actually, Wallachia was not a province of the Ottoman Empire, but only suzerain. Bogdan | Talk 14:27, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Caragiale's costume from the picture[edit]

Here is a source that specifies that Caragiale's costume was an "arnautesc" (albanian) one:

http://www.revista22.ro/bucurestiul-cultural-3-66-4318.html - Kenshin (talk) 11:34, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The problem I foresaw here and tried to avoid with the original wording is precisely the one you're glancing over in your post. The word arnăut is antiquated Romanian for albanez, but it is also the cognate (synonym?) of "Arvanite". "Arvanite" may be Albanian, just as it may not be (it's a matter of interpretation that no amount of sourcing would solve, certainly not on a case-by-case basis). This relates to Caragiale's own "shady" origin, and probably explains why he moved between self-definitions as Greek and Arvanite (with a clear preference for "Greek"). So my question is: why aim for faux certainty when we can play it safe? Dahn (talk) 11:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So what are you saying is that arnăut might not mean exactly Albanian? Well, if you have good reasons to doubt this than I think we can go with Balkan.
If you are more familiar with this, do you know who first advanced the idea that it is an "arnautesc" costume, then? Kenshin (talk) 13:37, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not married to either version, but I did mention my reasons why one would be better than the other. When I looked over the sources for the picture, it seemed to emerge that the photo was made public after Caragiale's death - I'm not sure if it was accompanied by any written statement, so it may be that whoever decided to call it "Albanian" or "Greek" or whatever took a guess. If you read the text to the left, you'll see that the photo is mentioned by Vianu. He describes it as such: "Caragiale era constient de descendenta lui [note: in this context at least, he makes no reference to "descendenta" being either "Greek" or "Albanian", but, on page 307, writes: "Caragiale este un mare scriitor roman, dar si al spatiului sud-est european"]. Intr-una din fotografiile lui i-a placut sa apara sezand turceste pe covor, cu tichia balcanica pe crestet, cu capul ridicat, gata sa lanseze invectiva." Dahn (talk) 14:06, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I just checked - the image was published by Călinescu in his Istoria (page 499 in the 1986 Piru edition). It carries the "arnautesc" legend, which is where it may have originated. Dahn (talk) 14:14, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So the "arnautesc" attribute for the costume existed right from the beginning. I wonder why no one tried to elucidate this thing. Anyway, "Balkan" is just fine. Kenshin (talk) 10:41, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What I meant to say is "Călinescu's caption" - it's not in the picture itself, it's sort of an impersonal legend ("Caragiale in costum arnautesc"). Whether it relies on something specific in the photo itself is not known to me.
I have to say I'm really sorry whenever I have to disagree with you. Dahn (talk) 10:45, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
At least on this one we don't disagree, you obviously have more info on this, and if you think that Albanian is doubtful, that I go with you. Kenshin (talk) 09:35, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment[edit]

The article is well referenced and has generally a lot of content. It has a defined structure and and contains images and an infobox. The accessability is okay. The article is almost too long and should perhaps be broken up into subarticles with the main article containing a summary. I'm not happy about how often Peacock terms (along the lines of "important", "well-known") are used and qualifiers (however, especially, nevertheless) begin sentences. The language should be worked over and made simpler overall. (example: "In some of his early articles, and again as he distanced himself from Junimea, the writer showed himself to be a vocal critic of the Conservative doctrine and its Junimist representatives." to "Caragiale was a critic of the Conservative doctrine and its Junimist representatives in some of his early articles and when he distanced himself from Junimea.") Also, the fact that the sources are all Romanian makes checking very difficult and requires some good faith. That said, I think I can rate the article B Class. Hekerui (talk) 18:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let me revisit that: the article is way too long, 155 KB, when the guideline advises for splitting the article as soon as it reaches 10 pages when printed and states that "readers may tire of reading a page much longer than about 30 to 50 KB". Also, my computer almost crashed checking it out again. NOT ready for GA class. Hekerui (talk) 12:56, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, it is too long. also most of the references come from one or maybe two sources. The summary is also rather long, and has quite a few red links. --Mdukas (talk) 05:43, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Redlinks are good, though. Hekerui (talk) 09:05, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Red links[edit]

Wow, I've never seen an article with so many red links. -- Ϫ 07:49, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to chop it off, heavilly. Afterall the article size is 100kb more as wikipedia allows. Please keep in mind the more important facts about Caragiale, that he was a play writer and have dealt with politics. In Romania there is a newspaper published in his memory "Academia Catavencu" that deals politics too and this is a good thing. Bogdan 188.25.52.176 (talk) 16:24, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

category[edit]

I've removed the ctegory on emigrate from Romania because he was a romanian citizen. Any comments ? *Bogdan 188.25.52.176 (talk) 16:24, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Caragiale's descent[edit]

If Caragiale's origin was not clear to himself, why this article states (with certainty) that he is of Greek descent? Same question in relation to what is told about his mother's descentSquad of feelings (talk) 18:27, 6 June 2010 (UTC). There are people who claim he was Aromanian or that his mother was Aromanian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squad of feelings (talk • contribs) 18:24, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsense. For anyone reading the section in question, which Squad of feelings has tried to modify against the sources several times (the equivalent of vandalism), you will note that: a) there is a direct quote where Caragiale explains that he was from a Greek family; b) all uncertainty about his origin refers to his paternal lineage, because there are serious literary historians who state that Caragiale was of Arvanite or Greek-Albanian lineage (that is, Greek, but also Albanian); c) one source describes in quite detailed terms Caragiale's maternal lineage, explicitly mentioning her Greek origin and discussing her possible Hungarian roots; d) the theory about him being Aromanian is given due weight, with the one reliable source one could be expected to find on the matter - and disregarding the idiotic proliferation on irrelevant Aromanian propaganda sites such as farsarotul.org. Whatever other "people who claim etc." etc. is frankly irrelevant to wikipedia, as long as not one creditable, respectable source (other than the one already quoted) even mentions this as a possibility. I know that such false claims have been polluting Romanian wikipedia for years, but enough is enough. Dahn (talk) 22:57, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is just some other type of propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squad of feelings (talk • contribs) 11:41, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If Caragiale himself stated he was "Greek", and if this is, as was shown, the general consensus, the allegation about this being "propaganda" is an inane attempt at poisoning the well. Dahn (talk) 13:18, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you have reasons to say there is a general consensus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squad of feelings (talk • contribs) 13:31, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

False dilemma. Dahn (talk) 14:25, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some Questionable Sources Related to Caragiale's Descent[edit]

The sources used to justify Caragiale's descent include newspaper articles and a few other articles of authors that are not classic researchers in Caragiale's work and life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squad of feelings (talk • contribs) 11:40, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We all have better things to do than debate sophistry. For the record: I am yet to find one "classic researcher" of Caragiale's life who would talk about him being "Aromanian". If you want to debate the reliability of sources, make sure you read the policy and point to something specific in it (for instance, something that says we should not use newspaper articles, or something that says we need to go with your definition of "classic researchers"). If not, you're wasting my time. Dahn (talk) 13:16, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And which classic presents him with certainty as Greek? A problem not solved should be reflected as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squad of feelings (talk • contribs) 13:28, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

None of them present him at all as Aromanian. One of them cites him saying he was Greek (which would generally be a "that's that"). At least one of them mentions that he was Arvanite (which is a kind of Greek).
The very reason why you're dragging me into this rationale is absurd: you wanted to manipulate info found in the sources, and now you're trying to bypass them. This is not the wikipedia way, and I don't see any point to continue a sterile discussion on the subject of your personal ideas. Dahn (talk) 14:29, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arvanites are Albanians, not Greeks. Also, according to your reference, he did not say precisely that he was Greek, but he mentioned, and only once, that he was the grandson of a "Greek cook" Squad of feelings (talk) 16:42, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The Bucharest National Theater[edit]

"The Bucharest National Theater is currently known in full as "Ion Luca Caragiale" National Theater."

Does anyone know since when? 2002? Fransvannes (talk) 21:38, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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