Talk:Horatio Alger

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Personal wealth[edit]

According to my history text book, Alger actually became quite rich. Edit? American History: A survey - Alan Brinkley

Credit for Inspiration[edit]

I don't see enough credit for the inspirational nature of his writings. In many ways, Alger defined steps to achieve the American Dream, which is a huge, formative philosophy of our nation. Honesty, hard work, determination. These are all foundational qualities of Alger's heroes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joe JHN (talk • contribs) 12:40, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Mayes' Biography[edit]

Half the information in this article appears to be based off of Mayes' fictional account of Alger's life, Horatio Alger: A Biography Without a Hero. Mayes himself has admitted that almost the entire biography was a hoax and pure conjecture. This article needs some major revising using a reliable source such as a Carol Nackenoff's Horatio Alger biography.

I will see if I can help in this regard...

128.103.151.106 16:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I cleaned it up quite a bit, but the whole "biography" section really needs to be rewritten from a reputable source or two. Also, I strongly suspect the bibliography has been tainted by Mayes titles, but I can't find a list of fake titles anywhere. If anyone finds one, some of the fake titles should be added under the "Mayes biography" section. --Quuxplusone 07:36, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be a problem in that, according to the works timeline, he continued producing books for 7 years or so after his death. -- Larry Bailey 18:27, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to [1], many of Alger's magazine serials were reprinted in book form, under different titles, after his death. Many of the "posthumous" books probably fall into this category. For example: Finding a Fortune (1904) is the same work as The Tin Box: or, Harry Gilbert's Fortune (1882). The 1899 death date seems to be correct. I know Mayes gave a wrong death date, but I don't know what it was. --Quuxplusone 06:05, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I edited some of the text of the biography to make it read cleaner, definitely needs to be re-drafted.

The birth date at the top doesn't agree with the birth date later in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.208.139.188 (talk) 06:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Works Section[edit]

This section needs to cleaned, I think the wiki links should be removed and only added when someone writes an article on a specific work. There were around 7 links, some were pointing to other peoples' works, and one was pointing to a basketball player. --White Pony |

It might be worth noting that it was not Alger's work but the times (and publishers) that have also led to his "rags to riches" reputation. His work became confused in the public imagination with the rise of Carnegie and Rockefeller and others. I believe his publishers (and copyright laws at the time may have led to many unauthorized publications) encouraged this confusion with their jacket art and language.

I removed 11 books that were just different titles of the same book, as well as adding 4 books not on the list. Here they are: Removed: Andy Gordon; or, The Fortunes of a Young Janitor (1909) Forging Ahead The Cash Boy; or Frank Fowler, the Cash Boy (1887) Frank Fowler, The Cash Boy Dan, the Newsboy Dan, the Detective Driven from Home (1889) The Odds Against Him; A Fancy of Hers (1892) The New Schoolma'am; Grit, The Young Boatman The Young Boatman of Pine Point Making His Way (1901) The World Before Him The Tin Box Finding a Fortune Tom, The Boot Black The Western Boy; Tony, The Tramp Tony, the Hero Wren Winter's Triumph A Rolling Stone;

Added: Frank Fowler, The Cash Boy In Search of Treasure. The Story of Guy's Eventful Voyage Life of Edwin Forrest Making His Mark —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.114.186.134 (talk) 17:56, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

redirect[edit]

I'm not sure how to do it, but someone should make a redirect page from Horaito Alger to this page. I've always known him as horaito alger (without the jr.) and I'm sure many others do as well. 74.140.50.141 18:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Name of type of books?[edit]

I thought there was a particular name for the brand of literature for which he became famous (rags to riches type stuff). I expected to find that word here, and I do not. Does anyone know what it is, or if I'm just smoking crack?
~ender 2008-11-18 13:22:PM MST —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.240.12.86 (talk)

I'm pretty sure they're just called dime novels, because they usually sold for about 10 cents. It's also the origin of "pulp fiction" because it was printed on cheap pulpy paper. Hope that helps. dachshund2k3 (talk) 03:50, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Distinguishing between pederastic and LGBT?[edit]

It was my understanding that it is offensive to gay people to confuse pederasty with homosexuality, considering that homosexuality as contemporarily defined is a relationship between two consenting adults of the same gender. It also seems that Alger's boy-obsessed writings betray a continued pederastic fascination throughout his life, and I'm not sure it's appropriate to consider those inclinations as LGBT. -- 18:50, 13 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moly (talk • contribs)

There are no citations about his personal life or relationships with adult members of the same sex. Therefore I have removed the GLBT Writers group association. If there is a pederast writers group and anyone has citations to support it, feel free to add him to that group. But there doesn't seem to be much evidence to support associating him with GLBT writers, so that has been removed. AlexReynolds (talk) 21:25, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And 4 years later this article still inaccurately describes Alger's so-called "probable homosexuality" when he was actually an apparent pedophile, not a homosexual. 75.76.213.161 (talk) 20:42, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Pederasty is subsumed by homosexuality. Of course not all male homosexuals are pederasts, but certainly all pederasts are male homosexuals.TheScotch (talk) 16:43, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Works" section[edit]

Rearranged the list of works in chronological-by-publication order rather than alphabetical. Cactus Wren (talk) 11:19, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Place of birth[edit]

The article says Alger was born in "what is now Revere, Massachusetts", but the Infobox shows Chelsea, Massachusetts, as his POB. Which is it?--ShelfSkewed Talk 19:57, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to Wikipedia's own article on the town of Chelsea, Massachusetts, it was formerly a section of Boston that eventually incorporated into its own city. What is known as Revere, Massachusetts was an area included within the boundaries of Chelsea, and did not become its own separate municipality until 1871. Although it would officially be called Revere within his lifetime, it was still a part of Chelsea at the time Alger was born. SeauxGood (talk) 03:16, 12 June 2010 (UTC)SeauxGood[reply]

Style and Themes[edit]

The second paragraph starts “Scharnhorst describes six major themes in Alger's boys' books." Yet the third theme cited is “central to Alger's adult fiction”, not his boys' books, and the last 3 are not given at all! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gembaser (talk • contribs) 00:59, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am not seeing a citation for the John Geck sourcesPrions (talk) 01:41, 26 November 2017 (UTC)Prions[reply]

Alger's pedophilia accusations[edit]

RE: Page being protected because of editing dispute on pedophilia accusations. In my opinion, user Cat Clean has been improperly deleting material that had proper sources. I am in the process of acquiring a copy of the book "The lost life of Horatio Alger." According to the Unitarian Universalist Association, this is "the only reliable biography" of Alger, or at least the only reliable biography concerning the incidents that led to him being forced out of his ministry position. Once I receive the book and the protection has been lifted I will work on the page using this source. Hopefully the use of this source will prevent any further accusations regarding the reliability of sources in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TerrierHockey (talk • contribs) 22:51, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've trimmed the entire section back for a couple of reasons. First, undue weight. The entire section was going into a lot of unencyclopedic tabloidish detail not shared by other sections. Indeed, other sections were "overpowered" by the length and weight given this one incident in Alger's life. Second, no charges were filed, no arrest, no trial, no conviction, no sentence, no prison time. The incident warrants mention because it's a part of the Alger biography but it should be kept in perspective. There's no reason to list every lurid unencyclopedic detail at this late date. Wikipedia is not a tabloid. Watervale101 (talk) 05:26, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The section was quite appropriate and there was no reason to delete 95% of it. We've already hashed this out at length and came up with a very suitable compromise that took into account concerns similar to the ones you raise here. The page was briefly protected due to an "edit war" between myself and a user named Cat Clean. We talked it over and compromised in order to ensure that the section did not include unsubstantiated rumors and was based on the most reliable sources. These aren't "lurid unencyclopedic details." They are a crucial part of Alger's life and by deleting all but two sentences of it you have de-emphasized it to the point where it seems completely insignificant. I'm going to re-insert the portions that you improperly deleted.--TerrierHockey (talk) 03:03, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I completely disagree. These are the sorts of lurid things that appeal to those who need cheap thrills such as dog fights, NASCAR crashes, drive-by shootings, and suicides jumping from bridges. Wikipeida doesn't need to pander to these tastes. These details are appropriate for a "tell-all definitive biography" but don't belong here. First, the incident has been given undue weight. It has three paragraphs in the Biography section, making the incident appear to be the principal reason for the article and outweighing every other aspect of the article. There were no charges, arrest, trial, conviction, sentence, or prison term. And there's really no reason to include sensational details such as "On the sabbath after services, one of these boys called at his room to leave a book. ... [Alger] bolted the door and then, and then, committed this unnatural crime, with the boy's poor sister waiting in the carriage, in the cold, [during] this diabolical transaction." Or trivia that adds nothing to the article such as "In 2006 the accusations of child sexual abuse resurfaced at an annual fair held in Marlborough, Mass., named in honor of Alger. These led the mayor and other town leaders to change the name to the "Heritage Festival" so as to avoid seeming to celebrate the memory of a child abuser." The Brewster incident was not a "crucial part of Alger's life" as you state. There's no evidence of this other than your declaration. The evidence indicates he treated the whole matter coolly, quit the job, and left town leaving some angry people behind. You have not demonstrated that it had any impact on his writing -- and that's the important thing because that's why he's remembered today. The entire incident has been given undue weight in the article and I'm going to cut it back -- again. The article is about Alger -- it is immaterial what the Unitarian church was going to do or not going to do. The article isn't about the Unitarian church. There's no reason to mention the boys' names and embarass their descendants on this page. As I said, all this stuff belongs in a definitive biography but it doesn't belong here. The incident certainly should be given space here but kept in perspective and the nauseating details left out. All that needs to be said is the incident happened and the outcome. There's no reason to dramatize the whole thing for thrill seekers by naming names, discussing bolted doors, sisters waiting in carriages, diabolical transactions, and so on. Watervale101 (talk) 07:25, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it looks like you at least left more of the section in this time than the previous time, when you deleted 95% of it. I had this same dispute with another previous editor, and we ended up going with my version for the most part. The article is about a man known primarily for writing books about young boys and helping young boys succeed, and so I think the fact that he was forced out of a church position because church officials discovered he was molesting young boys is quite significant to the article. I don't feel like getting into this now in any detail but I'll take a look at this again later and perhaps we will discuss it more or get a third editor involved so this dispute doesn't keep happening over and over again. --TerrierHockey (talk) 02:45, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Contradiction[edit]

Was he born in 1832 or 1834? According to this, sources give both dates, and Google searches confirm that both dates are used. We shouldn't use both dates in the same article here, without any explanation. Art LaPella (talk) 23:35, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Library of Congress listing gives us 1832. http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?Search_Arg=horatio+alger+jr&Search_Code=GKEY^*&PID=AenRmYk9xcFB19TIx9TJ4ozF9&SEQ=20110225015843&CNT=100&HIST=1 LOC is a pretty good source, so I've corrected/changed the date and deleted the contradict tag. (Good catch!) --S. Rich (talk) 07:03, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A photograph of his actual tombstone can be viewed at findagrave.com by typing his name in the search box. It says he was born January 13, 1832. NYSleuth (talk) 15:30, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Junior?[edit]

Is he not better known as simply "Horatio Alger", and shouldn't that be the primary name? His father had the same name, but he was not notable and is never going to have an article here. The Horatio Alger Association of Distinguished Americans didn't see fit to include the "Jr.". I note that he did publish at least some of his works as "Horatio Alger, Jr.", but shouldn't modern appelations prevail for modern readers? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ [your turn] 08:42, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Alger's financial situation[edit]

The subject must have been a spendthrift as the article reads: “Alger once estimated that he earned only [emphasis mine] $100,000 between 1866 and 1896;[60] “ According to an inflation calculator I found online, this would equate to approximately $1.73 million today. Is there any information as to how he managed to go through such a relatively large sum to die in modest circumstances? Poor investments, perhaps? For a writer who preached so often the wisdom of savings, thrift and shunning vices such as tobacco and alcohol usage as exemplified by his rags to riches subjects, this seems rather incongruous.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 21:46, 4 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That struck me as odd too, but 1.73 million divided over thirty years is $57,667 per year. That sounds to me like a comfortable income for an unmarried man with no children, but it probably doesn't qualify as rich. TheScotch (talk)
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