Talk:Jin Yong

Cat

I've taken the liberty of re-categorising the previous talk page, as a lot of very interesting discussions are difficult to find because of the lack of headings.--Alexio 09:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Intro section minor edit

His books are translated into a lot of different languages, I see no reason why his name in vietnamese is of any particular significance. Only his English and Chinese name belong here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.168.216.246 (talk) 10:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Addressing Jinyong in different contexts

There are two bits of information that I like to add but need confirmation from people who studied his work.

1. Almost all of his wuxia novels were written for the daily column in Ming Pao initially. i.e. daily segments were published while in progress. The book form of his novels are re-edited from these daily writings into more cohesive epics later. Only the true fans of his know how the story changed from the newspaper daily installments version to the book version.

2. He only used his pen name for his novels. He used his real name for his role as the chief editor of Ming Pao and when involved in Hong Kong politics. i.e. He used different names for his serious roles vs. his literature work.

Kowloonese

Although I cannot find independent source. I know that both of them are true.

SYSS Mouse 16:48, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

For #1, I read about that in his own words in some appendix of one of his novel. The only uncertain part is how many of his novels were written that way. For #2, anyone who lives in Hong Kong can confirm how he present himself in the polical circle. Kowloonese 20:52, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

List of characters/martial art schools

I like the list of characters and martial art schools. Since his work was heavily based on history, it would be nice to include a list of all the dynasties covered in his novels. Many minority groups and geography were covered by the stories. The latter list is not easy to build because of the difference in transliteration and some names were based on ancient usage. It would be a project on its own to link those information to other wikipedia articles. For example even the queen of Russia was mentioned in his last novel. Kowloonese 00:27, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'll try to add something like that... -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 22:03, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC) (loving wuxia and loving everything by Jinyong)

It makes no sense why certain characters are included here and not others. Minor characters like 剑神卓不凡 (sword deity zhuo byfan) is a minor character in one novel yet has a lengthy (relatively) section devoted to him. This article is about the author, his life, and his works. I think we should think about move/delete them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.168.216.246 (talk) 10:29, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Demigod/Semigod?

Demigod was changed to Semigod. I think the latter is not an English word.

It's a title, and an established one at that. Your other changes were erroneous as well, so they were reverted. Update: That was directed at the one who changed it. --Taoster 22:55, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I didn't make that change. I was just pointing out the recent change that didn't even make sense. I raised to your attention because I am not a Jinyong expert. Demigod was a good word, but someone changed it to a non-English word semigod. I noticed you have already reverted the change. Thanks.

Can confirm usual translation of the title is Demigods and Semi Devils. Simonm223 (talk) 16:27, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Character names in different languages

As a non-chinese-speaking person, I found difficult to read the whole page (including the detail of his work). One of the factor is there are many version of the character names. For example, Guo Jing is more known as Kwee Ceng (Hokkien) in my country (Indonesia) or Yang Guo is more popular as Yo Ko, etc. Would somebody write all version of the names? Thanks Kunderemp 16:53, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Yang Guo got two different moms (before and after the major revision)... anyone wanna mention that? I don't have the name of the old mom in mandarin (before revision).Suredeath 05:56, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Her name was Qin Nan-Qin (秦南琴). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.166.27.143 (talk) 17:34, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

Photo

This page is in desperate need of a photo. I'm sure a photo would be fair use? 165.21.154.111 19:09, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

We need photos here. Maybe one on the author, another on characters portrayed on TV, and a couple on HK, Taiwanese or SE Asian editions of his books. Any input will be vastly appreciated. Mandel 11:42, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Book covers are available under fair use, right? In that case it's easy to find pictures:

[1]

-- ran (talk) 14:02, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Timeline

Timeline: I disagree with DGSD being listed in the 12th century. This novel occursÕ in the 10th or 11th century (I can't remember which one). I've seen a detailed thread on the novel timelines in the Jinyong Teahouse board. If someone knows specifically whether it's in the 10th or 11th century, please change the article.

EDIT: I doublechecked. DGSD occurs in the late 11th century.

http://jinyong.ylib.com/snowtalk/show.asp?ch=genuine&no=25621

I have changed the DGSD timeline, and added the timeline for BiXieJian. Please don't wipe out my changes unless you have sources to back you up.

Anyway, the timeline is missing some novels. I don't have time to doublecheck and change the table now. I'll leave it to someone more capable.

--LWC

The story can't happen in 10th or 11th century (note 10th century was years 901 to 1000). — Yaohua2000 00:33, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I just added a footnote regarding the timeline of A Deadly Secret. It really would make much more sense (given the information provided in the novel) for the novel to occur in the Sung or Ming Dynasties if you ignore JY's note about his grandpa's servant and the pictorials in the novel. However, since there is evidence to support either case, I would like to leave the timeline as being ambiguous. --LWC

Cambridge

I read in the South China Morning Post that Cha is currently a doctoral student at Cambridge. I confirmed it with these links - http://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/johnian/events/regional/ http://www.newsgd.com/culture/art/200506230034.htm Unfortunately the SCMP story is not online and the St. John's events page is not stable - so I didnt include these refs in the main article Bwithh 16:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

"supporting characters"

I hope the authors won't mind, but I've changed the "supporting characters" category to the "Top five martial artists" (五绝). Whilst there's no doubt those five are just supporting characters, it seems strange to only include them into the "supporting characters" category - there must be hundreds of such characters in Jinyong's novels, and obviously it's impractical to incorporate them all. Any suggestions feel free to discuss.--Alexio 05:20, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Pinyin names for characters

Can I get some consensus here: should we regard Pinyin or English-translated names as "official" in Jinyong-related articles?

For example, should it be Jiangnan Qi Guai (江南七怪) or The Seven Freaks of Jiangnan? (I've written up the page as the former, but if the consensus favours the latter, I'm happy to change it.)

This should apply to characters, groups, sects/schools, locations and martial arts techniques (eg. is it Xianglong Shi Ba Zhang (降龙十八掌) or 18 Dragon-Subduing Palms?).--Alexio 09:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Jinyong in gaming

I changed the title of the article to "Jinyong in Video-game entertainment", since "gaming" has a connotation to gambling, which is obviously not what the author originally intended. Also it's a big claim to call the game a "forefather" to Chinese RPGs - I've "mildened" the language and asked for a citation. If anyone can add that information or expand that would be appreciated.--Alexio 02:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The Heavenly Sword and the Dragon Saber

Someone commented: Long suspected the title to be wrong - shouldn't it be "SABRE"? Can someone with a copy of the novel please turn to the publication details page and check? -- 202.20.5.206

According to dictionary.com, sabre is just the British spelling. Book on Amazon.com also.

-- mh 12:25, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

THE Amazon link features "sabre" - actually is that even an official edition?

Anyway, when it comes to books and other intellectual property, it's not about "dictionary definitions" or "that's just an Americanism" - the OFFICIAL published name should always be used, and that can be easily be confirmed by turning to the publication details page (near the end of the last volume for Jinyong novels, I think). Can any true Jinyong fan please do that and correct the error - if any? (For goodness' sake, the market is already flooded with dubious works such as 《嘯傲江湖》by people like “金鏞” or “今庸”!)202.20.5.206 20:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Just to add - there most certainly are official English names included in the original Chinese-language novels published by 明河社.202.20.5.206 20:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I tried searching at Amazon.com, but all I could find were comic-book adaptations. --Kjoonlee 08:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It's rather ironic that the official English titles can only be found in the original Chinese-language novels themselves(or so it seems). Thanks for the effort anyway! (Actually it won't take more than a few seconds for those eleven or twelve people who do have a copy at hand right now.)202.20.5.206 08:33, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Need English translation of titles

Could someone who reads/speaks Chinese take a look at the list of fictional (imaginary) books that appear in Jinyong's works, and supply English translations? Thanks :) --Bookgrrl 02:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Links

It seems this link has been taken down: http://www.fmsnp.edu.hk/teaching/novel/jinyong/us.my95.net/b5/book/xia/jinyong/jinyong.html

There are too many external links to websites which provides nothing much other than the complete text of Louis Cha's works, probably in violation of his copyrights. These links are neither reliable sources or in conformant with WP:LINKS. Time to clean them up. --John Seward 16:46, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

After some review I think it's safe to remove all the external links on the article, and I've done so already. --John Seward 15:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Chunking Central University

Can anyone provide a source to support the claim that Jinyong study at "Chunking Central University"? From this Google search, I am doubtful whether this institution exists at all... --John Seward 15:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Title Change

Hi, I oppose the change in the title of the article from Jinyong to Louis Cha Leung Yung (Jinyong). I feel that the new title is inappropriate because there is no standard language in the title. Louis Cha is English, Jinyong is a hanyu pinyin translation from his Chinese pseudonym, while Leung Yung is cantonese? I suggest a revert back to the old title of Jinyong, which is not only easier to find, but more widely accepted. --mh 17:39, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, why was it changed? He was best known as Jinyong, not Louis Cha.Suredeath 18:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:DeerandCauldron.jpg

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Number of Books Sold

How many of his books have been sold. Someone changed it to 30 million based on the Chinese article, but the English article #4 Louis Cha Awarded French Honor of Arts says that he has sold 300 million copies around the world making the currents numbers seem too small. Does anyone know the actual amount?--76.208.27.154 22:23, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, either of those two are plausible. There are still LOADS of illegal copies of his works being sold.Suredeath 23:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

This source claims 100 million from ~2000. As it is the only verifiable source I'm aware of...I'll replace it in the article for now. http://www.iht.com/articles/2000/06/20/melvin.t.php?page=2 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tendancer (talk • contribs) 23:54, August 21, 2007 (UTC).

Dugu Qiu Bai

I believe he actually does appear in The Smiling, Proud Wanderer. Several adaptations of the book in different drama/series have shown his appearance. I cannot confirm this in his novels, as I have not actually read them. But, if someone can, please confirm this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.187.189.205 (talk) 00:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

No, he never appears.Suredeath 02:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

No, he never appear but the person is Feng Qing Yang. 19 March 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.11.134.217 (talk) 08:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Shediao-merge.jpg

Image:Shediao-merge.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Huang Shang

I suggest that the section of Huang Shang be deleted. He was mentioned in ONE novel, and frankly he's not a famous character at all.Suredeath (talk) 16:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was Not moved.  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 23:36, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

---

Jin Yong → Louis Cha — "Jin Yong" is Cha's pen name and not his "official" name. To Chinese-speaking communities, he is better known as Jin Yong, but to Westerners, he is better known as "Louis Cha" instead. Anyway, this is English Wikipedia, so I think it might be better if he's addressed as "Louis Cha". If I did not remember wrongly, Cha mentioned in an interview or something that he prefers to be addressed as "Mr. Louis Cha" instead of "Mr. Jin Yong" or whatever. I can't remember where I read that from. Anyone would like to help me find the source for that claim? --_LDS (talk) 08:28, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Strong oppose, 金庸(查良鏞), belong to Chinese world. Whatever westerner can call him, to Chinese, he is JIn Yong, or 金大俠. Millions of Chinese read his novels during adolescence(including me), so Jin Yong played a huge part in the life of millions of Chinese. And Jin Yong's books are still read by millions of Chinese, and his book are still being turned into movies.

Louis Cha is unknown, and alien to majority of Chinese. I know this is English wikipedia, but there are many examples such as Kowtow, it would be wrong to try to change it into something else. Arilang ^talk 13:29, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Cha does not "belong" to the Chinese world only. He is a human being living on Earth just like any one of us. You've any evidence to support your claim that "Louis Cha is unknown and alien to majority of Chinese"? Why is it wrong to try and change it to something else, when that "something else" does not carry a literal meaning? Jin Yong is a pen name (筆名) and not the writer's actual name. Changing "Jin Yong" to "Louis Cha" is not tantamount to giving the writer a totally new name. What about your point that Jin Yong plays a very significant role in the lives of millions of Chinese? Yes, his works do have an impact on a lot of areas, so what? "Kowtow" is a word of Chinese (or Cantonese) origin that is accepted into the English language. How is it relevant in this case? _LDS (talk) 16:09, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Kowtow may be a bad example, let me try another one, just to prove my point:Soong May-ling is known as Madame Chiang Kai-shek in the West, please try to do the same thing with Soong May-ling, and see what happens. In the Chinese world, all Chinese know her as Soong May-ling, so Soong May-ling stay, regardless of what westerners called her. Chinese readers all know that Jin Yong (金庸) is just a pen name, so what? In the old times, Chinese scholars were known to have many names anyway. In this case, the pen name is more well known than the real name, so the pen name is to be used. Arilang ^talk 22:05, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't even think about moving Soong May-ling to Madame Chiang Kai-shek. "Soong May-ling" was her maiden name (or birth name) before her marriage to Chiang Kai-shek. "Madame Chiang" (or "Mrs. Chiang") is a more formal way of addressing her. Who says Westerners know Soong May-ling as "Madame Chiang Kai-shek" only? Have you conducted any research on this? Maybe you can go onto the streets of a Western country and ask any passerby, "Do you know who's Soong May-ling?" or "Do you know who's Madame Chiang Kai-shek"? The passerby may answer "No." to the first question, but "Yes, the wife of a man called Chiang Kai-shek." to the second question, and maybe he/she does not even know who Chiang Kai-shek is. You can try that in another country with a significant Chinese-speaking population, such as Singapore or Malaysia, and you may get the same response. Anyway, Soong May-ling's case is not relevant to the current discussion so why bring it up in the first place? The main crux of your argument is that "Jin Yong" is more familiar to (exclusively) Chinese audiences than "Louis Cha" so "Louis Cha" is not acceptable as the title for the page. It's exactly the same point as your earlier response and you're simply repeating it again in another form. Do you have any statistics to prove that majority of readers (not only Chinese-speaking ones) know the writer better as "Jin Yong" than "Louis Cha"? Making unsupported claims will not make your case stronger. Neither will that get you any further than simply paraphrasing the same point over and over again with new (somewhat irrelevant) examples. _LDS (talk) 06:37, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Moving Jin Yong to Louis Cha is wrong, that is my argument, and citing examples is just to prove my point. In case you are still not convinced, Ba Jin, do you know what his real name is? And more to the point, do any of his readers care what his real name is? Arilang ^talk 06:53, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

It's a POV thing between you and me, judging from the current situation, since neither of us is able to convince the other. Let's listen to what other editors have to say. To answer your last question: Yes, I read Cha's works and I do care what his real name is. _LDS (talk) 07:11, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

A interview transcript and an article

Please take a look at these websites:

2002 Louis Cha Interview

金庸荣获“2008影响世界华人终身成就奖” (in Chinese)

From the first website:

R: Hi Mr. Louis Cha, no..Jin Daxia. I’m more willing to address you as Jin Daxia, is that okay?

JY: (laughed): I can accept it as long as it is used to label a Wuxia novelist who sells his book well. However I must insist that you call me Daxia only because I allow it and not because I have Daxia's qualities!

R: You use your real name at official events and functions and you have a pen name for the novels, but for readers, you’re forever the Jin Daxia . Every move you make attracts attention, for example you were unwell recently and readers expressed their concerns. You look fine now.

From the second website:

金庸本名查良镛，金庸只是笔名，相熟的人称呼他“查先生”，或“查大侠”，对“金先生”的称谓，他不太认可。

Rough translation of the quoted text from the second website:

Jin Yong's real name is Zha Liangyong, "Jin Yong" is only his pen name. Those who are familiar with him address him as "Mr. Zha" or "Great Hero Zha". He does not approve of being addressed as "Mr Jin (Yong)".

The author appears to prefer being addressed as "Mr. Louis Cha", as he uses his real name at official events and functions. He uses his pen name only (or more often) when writing his novels. Shall we proceed with the move to the new title for the page? _LDS (talk) 15:34, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Please do not move until a consensus is reached. Arilang ^talk 15:49, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

• I oppose the move. Colipon+(Talk) 16:02, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

May I know your reason for opposing the move? _LDS (talk) 05:29, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

• strong oppose the move. Jin Yong is a devoted Buddhist, the name Louis is a Christian name, would suggest that he is a Christian. I do not know why he call himself Louis Cha, but in the West, Christian names is a serious subject.

金庸皈依佛教的心路歷程 Arilang ^talk 00:51, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Who says someone having a Christian name implies that he/she is a Christian? I suggest you read this line carefully. I've a Christian name as well, but I'm a free thinker. I know of some Buddhists who have so-called "Christian names". And I don't think you need to know why he calls himself "Louis Cha", just as I don't need to know why Arilang1234 chooses "Arilang1234" for a username. How serious is Christian names a subject in the West? _LDS (talk) 05:29, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Maybe one of you can contact Jin Yong via email through his official website or something and ask for his opinion? 218.186.8.241 (talk) 08:05, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Does Cha even reveal his office number or official email on the Net? I haven't found any means of contacting him after running searches on a few different search engines. I believe his office is in Hong Kong? Would any Wikipedian based in Hong Kong like to help in finding out how to contact him or anyone who can represent him (eg: spokesman, personal secretary)? Of course, an endorsement or something like that is needed for verifiability. I believe his opinion will certainly bring a conclusion to the discussion, if we can get it. _LDS (talk) 10:07, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

"Jin Yong" here is clearly the common-sense solution. At least the Google test shows that it garners significantly more results than "Louis Cha". It's the name that fans will search for and it basically meets all the criteria of WP:COMMONNAME. It is established convention that for famous authors, we use their pen names instead of their personal names. Mark Twain, for example. I also noticed that an editor went around and changed all in-article references of "Jin Yong" to "Louis Cha". Could they kindly revert these changes unless a consensus has been arrived at here? They were premature. Colipon+(Talk) 12:12, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced but I wouldn't want to start an edit war. I'll change the "Louis Cha" on the novels' pages back to "Jin Yong", but only on the novels' pages and pages related to the novels. Anything else, I think it'd be "Louis Cha". Does that please everybody? _LDS (talk) 12:22, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I hate being prickly on issues like this because I know some editors have already put great effort in streamlining those references, but if you note on his official biography, he is referred to as "Jin Yong". Therefore I don't see a reason why we would not use "Jin Yong". Colipon+(Talk) 12:53, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Very well, "Jin Yong" it shall be, for his novels and related pages. I'm still not convinced on a personal basis, but since majority of the participants in this discussion oppose the move, I guess the title shall stay. This page is in Chinese. It'd be more convincing if you can find an official biography in English that refers to the author as "Jin Yong". I still think that "Louis Cha" would be more appropriate as the title for this page since it's in line with Cha's personal preference. In my personal opinion, using "Louis Cha" as the title for this page is, at the very least, showing respect to Cha. _LDS (talk) 13:13, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Oppose per Google search results comparison. Tavatar (talk) 20:39, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Links to schools in Taiwan

Several of the wikilinks to schools attended by Jin Yong point to schools in Taiwan. I don't know anything about Jin Yong's biography, but I suspect he did not attend schools in Taiwan. I know it's tricky because schools that were in mainland China "forked" to Taiwan when the Nationalists ended up in Taiwan... Still it's confusing. Where was the Soochow Law school that Jin Yong attended, for example? Seems worth specifying. --Kai Carver (talk) 03:41, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• HKHM 沙田 Shatin 香港文化博物館 HK Heritage Museum 金庸展廳館 Jin Yong Gallery March 2017 IX1 movie 曹達華 Cho Tat Wah poster.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:02, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

DOB

Please provide reliable source for his DOB (March 10 or other version), and better use publication before 2017. Moreover, people mix up the Xth month of lunar calender with western calender, thus state the date carefully or quote the full sentence from the source. Matthew hk (talk) 09:25, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

In zh-wiki, they use this source from 2014 as citation. However, the DOB was added to zh-wiki without citation long before 2014. So, it may had issue of circular referencing even the url is a newspaper website. Matthew hk (talk) 10:35, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

And before 2010, the date in zh-wiki article was stated as 6 February. Interesting fact, the 6th day of the 2nd month of lunar calender in 1924, is 10 March. Matthew hk (talk) 10:39, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Language and character names

Different wiki pages refer to characters in Chinese and Cantonese interchangeably. This seems extremely confusing; see for instance Guo Jing's page. Given that this is the English wikipedia, I think it would be best if characters were named according to the official translation (if there is one), with Chinese/pinyin afterwards. Does anyone else have any opinions on this? If not, I'll make some edits. CohenTheBohemian (talk) 15:38, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Tone/Pronunciation of Surname 查 in Cantonese

If the Mandarin reading of 查 as a surname is Zha1, it's likely the Cantonese is also Zaa1 as a surname. Wiktionary doesn't seem to distinguish the uses for Cantonese but does list both pronunciations, but the two online dictionaries by the Chinese University of Hong Kong indicate the pronunciation of Zaa1 as the surname. https://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/ https://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-mf/

Can anyone who has access or can navigate Cantonese-language media confirm whether Caa4 or Zaa1 is the correct reading as used by either Jin Yong himself or official Cantonese-language media? Wandering Maiden (talk) 19:25, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I should really have looked this up myself first lol

Can confirm, at least one documentary/interview in Cantonese uses Caa4; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyaUEFUgY1s&t=763s

Although, Jin Yong appears to not be a fluent Cantonese speaker and instead his native speech is some Wu topolect, so it may not be how he pronounces his own surname. Wandering Maiden (talk) 19:47, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Born Date

There are 2 different informations about his birthday. the first paragraph said Feb 6, but Early Life section said March 10. i Want to edit it, but afraid that someone will revert it, so i ask here first :p A tumiwa (talk) 11:13, 25 February 2024 (UTC)