Talk:Pornography addiction
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The main points of this FAQ (Talk:Pornography addiction#FAQ) can be summarized as:
More detail is given on this point, below. To view the response to a question, click the [show] link to the right of the question. Q1: Why don't you state pornography addiction as fact?
A1: Our policies on Wikipedia, in particular WP:WEIGHT and WP:FRINGE, require us to provide coverage to views based on their prominence within reliable sources, and we must reflect the opinion of the scientific community as accurately as possible. For example, if the APA will include pornography addiction in the DSM, then Wikipedia will rubber-stamp its decision. Otherwise, Wikipedia isn't here to give a "fair and balanced" treatment to unsupported ideas. In this respect, Wikipedia is merely a mirror which reflects medical orthodoxy. There is no official document from WHO, AMA, APA, Cochrane or APA which would imply that sex/porn/masturbation addiction would be a valid diagnosis. (CSBD isn't an addiction.)
Q2: Why don't you state that porn use is paraphilia (pictophilia)?
A2: The majority of US men use porn.[1][2][3][4][5] What the majority does is axiomatically clinically normal in psychiatry. According to The Huffington Post, 70% of men and 30% of women watch porn.[6] Quite probably, the majority of US population between ages 18 and 35 use porn at least once a week.[7]
DSM-5 code for pornography use? Not any. ICD-10 code for pornography use? Not any. ICD-11 code for pornography use? Not any. So, of course it isn't paraphilia. Even allowing that an excessive obsession with porn is paraphilia, normal (ordinary) porn use isn't. Q3: Why don't you state that pornography increases sexual aggression?
A3: Our policies on Wikipedia, in particular WP:WEIGHT and WP:FRINGE, require us to provide coverage to views based on their prominence within reliable sources, and we must reflect the opinion of the scientific community as accurately as possible. Crime statistics make the claim highly unlikely, and per WP:EXTRAORDINARY multiple, independent and very strong WP:MEDRS-compliant sources are required in order to overturn long-standing medical consensus, see also WP:RS/AC. Otherwise, Wikipedia isn't here to give a "fair and balanced" treatment to your pet ideas. In this respect, Wikipedia is merely a mirror which reflects medical orthodoxy.
Does Malamuth say that pornography increases sexual aggression? Nope, that's a misreading of his papers, as he himself declared to Quartz publication.[8]
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Unscientific ?[edit]
Are we sure this is unscientific? Yourbrainonporn and fight the new drug have science for this Jm33746 (talk) 23:16, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- https://fightthenewdrug.org/how-porn-can-affect-the-brain-like-a-drug/ Jm33746 (talk) 23:27, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- As you've been already told, Wikipedia relies on sources that meet WP:MEDRS, not random blogs and advocacy sites. MrOllie (talk) 23:30, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- The main sources used for the above blog are articles from the Telangana Journal of Psychiatry, reflecting the views of the Indian Psychiatry Society. Dimadick (talk) 06:17, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- You should know that popular superstition scares Hindus of losing their semen. So, while the measured effect could be real, it only says that people terrified of losing their vital energy are also terrified of porn and masturbation, simply because of their religious upbringing. And, yup, such effect is not unique to Hindus, Conservative Christians are also scared of porn and masturbation because of their own religious upbringing. There are peer-reviewed studies to that extent. DSM-IV-TR has an entry about shenkui, a syndrome due to being scared of losing semen which only exists among the Chinese and their neighboring nations. So, yeah, the effect is real, but they are not measuring porn addiction, they are measuring cultural attitudes inducing nocebo. Here: Grubbs, Joshua B.; Exline, Julie J.; Pargament, Kenneth I.; Volk, Fred; Lindberg, Matthew J. (28 June 2016). "Internet Pornography Use, Perceived Addiction, and Religious/Spiritual Struggles". Archives of Sexual Behavior. 46 (6). Springer Science and Business Media LLC: 1733–1745. doi:10.1007/s10508-016-0772-9. ISSN 0004-0002. tgeorgescu (talk) 13:22, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Citations
- 1Love, T., Laier, C., Brand, M., Hatch, L., & Hajela, R. (2015). Neuroscience of Internet Pornography Addiction: A Review and Update. Behavioral sciences (Basel, Switzerland), 5(3), 388–433. https://doi.org/10.3390/bs5030388
- 2Stark R., Klucken T. (2017) Neuroscientific Approaches to (Online) Pornography Addiction. In: Montag C., Reuter M. (eds) Internet Addiction. Studies in Neuroscience, Psychology and Behavioral Economics. Springer, Cham. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-319-46276-9_7
- 3De Sousa, A., & Lodha, P. (2017). Neurobiology of Pornography Addiction - A clinical review. Telangana Journal of Psychiatry, 3(2), 66-70. doi:10.18231/2455-8559.2017.0016
- 4Costumero, V., Barrós-Loscertales, A., Bustamante, J. C., Ventura-Campos, N., Fuentes, P., Rosell-Negre, P., & Ávila, C. (2013). Reward sensitivity is associated with brain activity during erotic stimulus processing. PloS one, 8(6), e66940. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0066940
- 5De Sousa, A., & Lodha, P. (2017). Neurobiology of Pornography Addiction - A clinical review. Telangana Journal of Psychiatry, 3(2), 66-70. doi:10.18231/2455-8559.2017.0016
- 6Brand, M., Snagowski, J., Laier, C., & Maderwald, S. (2016). Ventral striatum activity when watching preferred pornographic pictures is correlated with symptoms of Internet pornography addiction. NeuroImage, 129, 224–232. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2016.01.033
- 7De Sousa, A., & Lodha, P. (2017). Neurobiology of Pornography Addiction - A clinical review. Telangana Journal of Psychiatry, 3(2), 66-70. doi:10.18231/2455-8559.2017.0016
- 8De Sousa, A., & Lodha, P. (2017). Neurobiology of Pornography Addiction - A clinical review. Telangana Journal of Psychiatry, 3(2), 66-70. doi:10.18231/2455-8559.2017.0016
- 9Rosenberg, H., & Kraus, S. (2014). The relationship of “passionate attachment” for pornography with sexual compulsivity, frequency of use, and craving for pornography. Addictive Behaviors, 39(5), 1012-1017.
- 10Snagowski, J., Laier, C., Duka, T., & Brand, M. (2016). Subjective Craving for Pornography and Associative Learning Predict Tendencies Towards Cybersex Addiction in a Sample of Regular Cybersex Users. Sexual Addiction & Compulsivity, 23(4), 342-360. doi:10.1080/10720162.2016.1151390
- 11Laier, C., & Brand, M. (2017). Mood changes after watching pornography on the Internet are linked to tendencies towards Internet-pornography-viewing disorder. Addictive Behaviors Reports, 5, 9-13. doi:10.1016/j.abrep.2016.11.003
- 12Teffer, K., & Semendeferi, K. (2012). Human prefrontal cortex: evolution, development, and pathology. Progress in brain research, 195, 191–218. https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-444-53860-4.00009-X
- 13Volkow, N. D., Wang, G. J., Fowler, J. S., Tomasi, D., Telang, F., & Baler, R. (2010). Addiction: decreased reward sensitivity and increased expectation sensitivity conspire to overwhelm the brain's control circuit. BioEssays : news and reviews in molecular, cellular and developmental biology, 32(9), 748–755. https://doi.org/10.1002/bies.201000042
- 14Kuhn, S., & Gallinat, J. (2014). Brain Structure and Functional Connectivity Associated With Pornography Consumption: The Brain on Porn. JAMA Psychiatry, 71(7), 827-834. doi:10.1001/jamapsychiatry.2014.93
- 15Volkow, N. D., Koob, G. F., & McLellan, A. T. (2016). Neurobiologic advances from the brain disease model of addiction. N Engl J Med, 374(4), 363-371. doi:10.1056/NEJMra1511480
- 16Kühn, S., & Gallinat, J. (2014). Brain structure and functional connectivity associated with pornography consumption: The brain on porn. JAMA psychiatry, 71(7), 827–834. https://doi.org/10.1001/jamapsychiatry.2014.93
- 17Antons, S., Mueller, S. M., Wegmann, E., Trotzke, P., Schulte, M. M., & Brand, M. (2019). Facets of impulsivity and related aspects differentiate among recreational and unregulated use of Internet pornography. Journal of behavioral addictions, 8(2), 223–233. https://doi.org/10.1556/2006.8.2019.22
- 18Reid, R. C., Karim, R., McCrory, E., & Carpenter, B. N. (2010). Self-reported differences on measures of executive function and hypersexual behavior in a patient and community sample of men. The International journal of neuroscience, 120(2), 120–127. https://doi.org/10.3109/00207450903165577
- 19Negash, S., Sheppard, N. V., Lambert, N. M., & Fincham, F. D. (2016). Trading Later Rewards for Current Pleasure: Pornography Consumption and Delay Discounting. Journal of sex research, 53(6), 689–700. https://doi.org/10.1080/00224499.2015.1025123
- 20Hilton, D. L., & Watts, C. (2011). Pornography addiction: A neuroscience perspective. Surgical neurology international, 2, 19. https://doi.org/10.4103/2152-7806.76977
- 21Young K. S. (2013). Treatment outcomes using CBT-IA with Internet-addicted patients. Journal of behavioral addictions, 2(4), 209–215. https://doi.org/10.1556/JBA.2.2013.4.3
- 22Nathanson, A. (2021). Psychotherapy with young people addicted to internet pornography. Psychoanal.Study Child, 74(1), 160-173. doi:10.1080/00797308.2020.1859286
- 23Pfefferbaum, A., Rosenbloom, M. J., Chu, W., Sassoon, S. A., Rohlfing, T., Pohl, K. M., Zahr, N. M., & Sullivan, E. V. (2014). White matter microstructural recovery with abstinence and decline with relapse in alcohol dependence interacts with normal ageing: a controlled longitudinal DTI study. The lancet. Psychiatry, 1(3), 202–212. https://doi.org/10.1016/S2215-0366(14)70301-3
- 24Yau, Y. H., & Potenza, M. N. (2015). Gambling disorder and other behavioral addictions: recognition and treatment. Harvard review of psychiatry, 23(2), 134–146. https://doi.org/10.1097/HRP.0000000000000051
- 25Rullmann, M., Preusser, S., Poppitz, S., Heba, S., Gousias, K., Hoyer, J., Schütz, T., Dietrich, A., Müller, K., Hankir, M. K., & Pleger, B. (2019). Adiposity Related Brain Plasticity Induced by Bariatric Surgery. Frontiers in human neuroscience, 13, 290. https://doi.org/10.3389/fnhum.2019.00290
- 26Gilliland, R., South, M., Carpenter, B. N., & Hardy, S. A. (2011). The roles of shame and guilt in hypersexual behavior.18(1), 12-29. doi:10.1080/10720162.2011.551182 Jm33746 (talk) 19:59, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Jm33746: Scientific sources aren't born equal. See WP:MEDRS. Scientific sources are not people, so do not enjoy human rights. Scientists are people, but their papers aren't people.
- Porn addiction is a scientific dispute of the 2010s, I do not think that it got much traction in the 2020s.
- E.g. Psychotherapy with young people addicted to internet pornography is not even indexed for PubMed, let alone MEDLINE. How do we call treating minors for an unrecognized mental disorder? We call it medical malpractice. "addicted to internet pornography" is a bogus diagnosis.
- Friendly advice: if you don't like WP:BESTSOURCES, you won't last long as a Wikipedia editor. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=nathanson+pornography shows 0 (zero, naught) results. tgeorgescu (talk) 05:37, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
- You should know that popular superstition scares Hindus of losing their semen. So, while the measured effect could be real, it only says that people terrified of losing their vital energy are also terrified of porn and masturbation, simply because of their religious upbringing. And, yup, such effect is not unique to Hindus, Conservative Christians are also scared of porn and masturbation because of their own religious upbringing. There are peer-reviewed studies to that extent. DSM-IV-TR has an entry about shenkui, a syndrome due to being scared of losing semen which only exists among the Chinese and their neighboring nations. So, yeah, the effect is real, but they are not measuring porn addiction, they are measuring cultural attitudes inducing nocebo. Here: Grubbs, Joshua B.; Exline, Julie J.; Pargament, Kenneth I.; Volk, Fred; Lindberg, Matthew J. (28 June 2016). "Internet Pornography Use, Perceived Addiction, and Religious/Spiritual Struggles". Archives of Sexual Behavior. 46 (6). Springer Science and Business Media LLC: 1733–1745. doi:10.1007/s10508-016-0772-9. ISSN 0004-0002. tgeorgescu (talk) 13:22, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- https://www.indy100.com/lifestyle/porn-side-effects-sex-coach 184.170.66.130 (talk) 03:37, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Dr. Trish is not a scientific researcher. According to publish or perish, she only published one paper, more than a decade ago. tgeorgescu (talk) 04:33, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- The real question is if APA has to invent a diagnosis of "porn addiction", or the already well-established diagnoses are enough for treating compulsive masturbators (the medical folklore is that such cases are extremely rare). tgeorgescu (talk) 01:03, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
Dr. Valerie Voon[edit]
Can i use her research Jm33746 (talk) 13:42, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Jm33746: Same rules apply according to WP:MEDRS to her works, which apply to anyone else's works:
- systematic literature review;
- indexed for MEDLINE.
- Higher quality sources are allowed, e.g. medical consensus statements from APA and WHO. But this is restricted to making medical claims, other works can be cited, as long as they are not making medical claims. Or as long as they explain/illustrate the points made by sources which pass WP:MEDRS.
- Anyway, from DSM-5-TR (March 2022) we learn that the side which claims that there is such a thing as porn addiction lost the scientific dispute. I'm prepared to revise my statement when DSM-6 will be published, but that will be the last chance porn addiction has before being declared dead in the water. Since in the 2020s porn addiction is no longer a scientifically credible concept. According to WP:YESPOV, Wikipedia has to clearly declare that. tgeorgescu (talk) 09:32, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- Wired for Intimacy: How Pornography Hijacks the Male Brain ( Struthers, a neuroscientist) Jm33746 (talk) 23:28, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- Again, the medical consensus is pretty clear: there is no evidence that porn addiction exists. Any view opposing the medical consensus will be treated as WP:FRINGE.
- "Struthers exposes false assumptions and casts a vision for a redeemed masculinity, showing how our sexual longings can actually propel us toward sanctification and holiness in our bodies." (emphasis mine). Sanctification and holiness are theology, neither psychology nor psychiatry. That makes his book non-science (no kidding!). Sanctification and holiness are the core business of your own church, and for your therapist it is a violation of their professional ethical code to meddle with theological issues. Any shrink or therapist could lose their license if they insist on sanctification and holiness with regard to their patients. Mental health professionals who listen to his advice will find themselves fired and unemployable. There's a limited number of jobs for fundamentalist porn addiction therapists, and hiring professionals would spoil their business. tgeorgescu (talk) 05:42, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
- Wired for Intimacy: How Pornography Hijacks the Male Brain ( Struthers, a neuroscientist) Jm33746 (talk) 23:28, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/brain-activity-in-sex-addiction-mirrors-that-of-drug-addiction 159.230.220.152 (talk) 16:21, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- Sure, sure... that was news in 2014. Did it persuade APA to change its mind? Judging by DSM-5-TR: no, it didn't. "Porn addiction" or even CSBD are not included in the DSM, not even as subjects for further study. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:42, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
Christian POV[edit]
I am not a Christian, but I don't think that Christian means "biased hack who cannot tell the truth".
If anything, Bowman is higher on the academic pecking order than Martinez-Gilliard and Dhuffar-Pottiwal. He seems to be in favor of a porn addiction diagnosis, nevertheless he recognizes the facts from ICD-11 for what they are.
So, yes, there are differences of opinion, but the hard facts (i.e. CBSD is no addiction) are not disputed. tgeorgescu (talk) 05:49, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Tgeorgescu: And what about this source? Potatín5 (talk) 10:55, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- It seems like a valid opinion. But we are discussing facts about ICD-11 vs. opinions about ICD-11. I have no WP:BALL to deny Bowman's claim that CSBD will be later recognized as an addiction. But we are not there yet. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:04, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Potatín5: These being said, the DSM has deprecated the term "addiction", and that alone should tell you that "porn addiction" belongs to a bygone era of psychiatry. Addiction is so 1970. Neurosis, neurasthenia, and addiction are not 21st century psychiatric diagnoses. The public uses these terms a lot, but medical insurance companies do not cover such diagnoses. Any diagnosis of addiction, and the medical insurance won't pay your bill. The term "addiction" belongs to popular psychology, not to mainstream psychiatry. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:36, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- So, I don't think there is going to be a diagnosis of "sexual addiction" or "pornography addiction" because the term "addiction" is no longer used. And "sex OCD" and "porn OCD" seem like useless additions to OCD. APA is reluctant to adopt merely verbal tricks. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:22, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
COI[edit]
[1] is WP:COI. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:18, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
Requested move 27 October 2023[edit]
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It was proposed in this section that Pornography addiction be renamed and moved to Compulsive sexual behaviour disorder.
result: Move logs: source title · target title
This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}} |
Pornography addiction → Compulsive sexual behaviour disorder – "Pornography addiction is not how the scientific community discusses this topic. The title suggests a consensus on the topic. A dedicated chapter in the Compulsive sexual behaviour disorder page named "Porn addiction" should be created. Forsen1337 (talk) 21:13, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Did you mean to propose a merge of the two articles? Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 21:32, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- I thought about just adding it as a subcategory to the other article Forsen1337 (talk) 18:37, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
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