Talk:A German Requiem (Brahms)

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Archives

Archive 1 (March 2005 – March 2011)

Removal of recordings[edit]

Many recordings were removed, I don't know by what standard. I suggest to establish a separate article A German Requiem discography, as for major operas or the Bach Passions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:58, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The standard that I used was there was an explanation of notability, such as that the orchestra uses period instruments or the choir sings it in a language other than German. Or even that it won an award (I'm being generous and counting Grammies as awards).

But of course I have to explain my edits. Other Wikipedians who are more powerful than I am can remove anything they want and they don't have to explain it to anyone. That's the Wikipedia way. James470 (talk) 20:09, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see it as a matter of power. I would like to go for completeness. To go for original instruments but exclude recordings in the original language seems a bit strange to me. To remove historical figures such as Shaw and Celibidache left me speechless, I confess. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:27, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, there are other criteria that should be used ... e.g. a major re-release of a recording, how "famous" it is ... which is quite hard to quantify! I agree that it would probably be best to move them to a separate discography article. Graham87 01:11, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Moved. That article is in it's beginning, help and comments welcome. Once it is established, it should replace the personal selection of one editor left in the works article at the moment, imo.--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:47, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lyrics[edit]

Per WP:NOT#LYRICS and WP:MOSMUSIC#LYRICS, I am removing the source text and translation, as they do not seem to fit the guidelines for usage of source text. I am copying the table over here, however, if anybody would like to move the source text ot Wikisource, which is likely where it belongs. Bramble claw x 15:57, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Movement	German Text	English Translation - Traquair-Benson Version
1. "Selig sind, die da Leid tragen" Blessed are they that mourn	Selig sind, die da Leid tragen, denn sie sollen getröstet werden. Matthäus 5:4 Die mit Tränen säen, werden mit Freuden ernten. Sie gehen hin und weinen und tragen edlen Samen, und kommen mit Freuden und bringen ihre Garben. Psalm 126:5-6	Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Matthew 5:4 They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. They that go forth and weep, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing their sheaves with them. Psalm 126:5-6
2. "Denn alles Fleisch, es ist wie Gras" For all flesh is as grass	Denn alles Fleisch, es ist wie Gras und alle Herrlichkeit des Menschen wie des Grases Blumen. Das Gras ist verdorret und die Blume abgefallen. I Petrus 1:24 So seid nun geduldig, lieben Brüder, bis auf die Zukunft des Herrn. Siehe, ein Ackermann wartet auf die köstliche Frucht der Erde und ist geduldig darüber, bis er empfahe den Morgenregen und Abendregen. So seid geduldig. Jakobus 5:7 Aber des Herrn Wort bleibet in Ewigkeit. I Petrus 1:25 Die Erlöseten des Herrn werden wieder kommen und gen Zion kommen mit Jauchzen. Freude, ewige Freude wird über ihrem Haupte sein; Freude und Wonne werden sie ergreifen, und Schmerz und Seufzen wird weg müssen. Jesaja 35:10	For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower thereof falleth away. I Peter 1:24 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and has long patience for it, until he receive the morning and evening rain. Be patient therefore. James 5:7 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. I Peter 1:25 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away. Isaiah 35:10
3. "Herr, lehre doch mich" Lord, make me to know mine end	Herr, lehre doch mich, daß ein Ende mit mir haben muß, und mein Leben ein Ziel hat, und ich davon muß. Siehe, meine Tage sind einer Handbreit vor dir, und mein Leben ist wie nichts vor dir. Ach, wie gar nichts sind alle Menschen, die doch so sicher leben. Sie gehen daher wie ein Schemen, und machen ihnen viel vergebliche Unruhe; sie sammeln, und wissen nicht, wer es kriegen wird. Nun, Herr, wes soll ich mich trösten? Ich hoffe auf dich. Psalm 39:5-8 Der Gerechten Seelen sind in Gottes Hand, und keine Qual rühret sie an. Weisheit Salomos 3:1	Lord, make me to know mine end, and the measure of my days, what it is: that I may know how frail I am. Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee. Verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Surely every man walks in a vain show: surely they are disquieted in vain: he heaps up riches, and knows not who shall gather them. And now, Lord, what wait I for? My hope is in thee. Psalm 39:5-8 The souls of the righteous are in the hand of God and there shall no torment touch them. Wisdom of Solomon 3:1
4. "Wie lieblich sind deine Wohnungen" How lovely is thy dwelling place	Wie lieblich sind deine Wohnungen, Herr Zebaoth! Meine Seele verlanget und sehnet sich nach den Vorhöfen des Herrn; mein Leib und Seele freuen sich in dem lebendigen Gott. Wohl denen, die in deinem Hause wohnen, die loben dich immerdar. Psalm 84:1,2,4	How lovely are thy tabernacles, O Lord of hosts! My soul longs, yea, even faints for the courts of the Lord: my heart and my flesh cries out for the living God. Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will always be praising thee. Psalm 84:1,2,4
5. "Ihr habt nun Traurigkeit" And ye now therefore have sorrow	Ihr habt nun Traurigkeit; aber ich will euch wiedersehen und euer Herz soll sich freuen, und eure Freude soll niemand von euch nehmen. Johannes 16:22 Sehet mich an: Ich habe eine kleine Zeit Mühe und Arbeit gehabt und habe großen Trost funden. Sirach 51:27 Ich will euch trösten, wie einen seine Mutter tröstet. Jesaja 66:13	And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. John 16:22 Behold with your eyes, how that I have but little labour, and have gotten unto me much rest. Sirach 51:27 As one whom his mother comforts, so will I comfort you. Isaiah 66:13
6. "Denn wir haben hie keine bleibende Statt" For here have we no lasting home	Denn wir haben hie keine bleibende Statt, sondern die zukünftige suchen wir. Hebräer 13:14 Siehe, ich sage euch ein Geheimnis: Wir werden nicht alle entschlafen, wir werden aber all verwandelt werden; und dasselbige plötzlich, in einem Augenblick, zu der Zeit der letzen Posaune. Denn es wird die Posaune schallen, und die Toten werden auferstehen unverweslich, und wir werden verwandelt werden. Dann wird erfüllet werden das Wort, das geschrieben steht: Der Tod ist verschlungen in den Sieg. Tod, wo ist dein Stachel? Hölle, wo ist dein Sieg? I Korinther 15:51-55 Herr, du bist würdig, zu nehmen Preis und Ehre und Kraft, denn du hast alle Dinge geschaffen, und durch deinen Willen haben sie das Wesen und sind geschaffen. Offenbarung 4:11	For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. Hebrews 13:14 Behold, I show you a mystery: we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? I Corinthians 15:51-55 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11
7. "Selig sind die Toten" Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord	Selig sind die Toten, die in dem Herren sterben, von nun an. Ja der Geist spricht, daß sie ruhen von ihrer Arbeit; denn ihre Werke folgen ihnen nach. Offenbarung 14:13	Blessed are the dead, which die in the Lord, from henceforth. Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Revelation 14:13

I disagree that the placement of the German and English text in this article contradicts the guidelines you mention in any way. The removal of the table above left the article with an ugly and pointless and unencyclopedic playlist. Im accordance with widespread Wikipedia practice, it should be reinstated. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:03, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course it should go back: readers should not have to go to the talk page or edit history to find information they're looking for! Sparafucil (talk) 19:10, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Track/Movement Listing[edit]

I came here to check on correctness of movement names and found none listed. Usually classical compositions have differing headings on the various recordings, but aside from a lengthy, exhaustive table, I found no reference to titles of movements. I have a recording, so am inserting them from that CD ("EDR" - Price, Ramey, Royal Phil. Orch., Previn, 1987). --David Be (talk) 14:50, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I've formatted them as a list and added English translations. The conventional titles of movements 4 and 7 are shorter than the ones you provided, so I've modified them accordingly. Graham87 04:40, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The new section "Movement Titles" has several flaws. It's not conforming to MOS:HEADINGS (sentence case), and its wording is redundant; it should be "Movements". Second, the whole section is redundant because the section "Table of movements" shows the titles in German and English as the first line of each movement. Once the redundant section has been removed, the naming of the remaining section can be simplified. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:24, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I knew about the table, but it's almost a bit too exhaustive ... it wasn't easy for me (doing a quick scan of the table with my screen reader) to figure out the titles of the movements. Perhaps a separate column should be created for the titles, or they could be incorporated with the Roman numerals next to the audio? (The latter would be a bit redundant, but maybe easier to understand?) I don't know what's possible with tables, and I'm aware this is a special case where the text is specific and very important to the understanding of the piece. (Many of the details are already in the German Wikisource entry.) Anyway the extra list really won't help us here, so I've removed it again. I hope I'm making sense ... it's awfully late here! Graham87 16:25, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I had the same thought about trying to incorporate the movement titles into the table rows with the Roman numerals, but decided against it as it would be ridiculously redundant. Maybe emphasizing the relevant first lines by bolding them in the table might be better.

P.S. The last part of the second movement should be named "Freude, ewige Freude" (Joy, eternal joy). -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:57, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Done and done. Graham87 16:33, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Some discussion of the influence of Schütz would help[edit]

This article fails to even mention the often discussed fact that Brahms was quite familiar with, indeed had made a study of, Heinrich Schütz's 1636 Musicalisches Exequien; Concert in Form einer teutschen begräbnis-Missa. The influence of Schütz, in the declamation and textures, despite more than 200 years of stylistic change, is fairly obvious, and deserves some analysis. Oldionus (talk) 17:01, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]