Talk:Sgian-dubh

Plural

Anyone got any idea what the plural of sgian dubh might be? -- Gantlord

Yeah. "Sgian dubhs". :) Adraeus 01:29, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In English, sure. But I think Gantlord is interested in it as a Gaelic word. The plural is sgianan, 'knives'.--Doric Loon 15:33, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What is meant by "Gaelic"? Is that Irish Gaelic or Scots-Gaelic? They're two separate languages, for heaven's sake! Chainedwind 22:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Given that the article is about Scottish Highland dress, and that the mention of Gaelic is linked to "Scottish Gaelic", I think it's pretty obvious which language is meant. Flapdragon 23:09, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

sgianan dubha 2601:C6:C004:141A:4490:DC73:DF3B:1BB0 (talk) 14:55, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Usually when English borrows words, it streamlines their plurals (in the case of nouns), hence people don't use the Inuit plural for parkas or use bratwurst > bratwürste. It would be *nice* if English speakers had this level of knowledge of Gaelic plurals but they don't. Akerbeltz (talk) 23:08, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

It makes sense to pluralise it as sgians-dubh rather than sgian-dubhs. We say fleurs-de-lis, not not fleur-de-lises. 46.7.236.155 (talk) 14:53, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

That's French. A search for "sgians-dubh" gives me 1860 ghits, "sgian-dubhs" 92,300 so at best, sgians deserves a mention but it is NOT predominant usage. Akerbeltz (talk) 15:44, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

You argued that we shouldn't use sgianan dubha as it wasn't the English form for plurals. In English nouns are pluralised, adjectives aren't e.g. court martial -> courts martial, secretary general -> secretaries general. 46.7.236.155 (talk) 17:09, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes but this items is not borrowed as a noun + adjective, English speakers have no clue as to the literal meaning of each item, it's just borrowed as a single item (noun). Like cairngorms, (and not cùirn ghorma or cairns gorm) or claymores (not clays more). Akerbeltz (talk) 21:37, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

"doov"

I'd like to take a straw poll on that last change by an anonymous user. How many of us pronounce the bh of dubh as a v? Obviously that is the original Gaelic pronunciation of an aspirated b, but Gaelic spelling is very antiquated, and I personally wouldn't pronounce dubh that way in modern Gaelic. But anyway, it is the pronunciation in English which counts here, and I don't think I've ever heard it that way. Comments? --Doric Loon 21:18, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I say "skee-in Doo" or "sken-du" depending on my mood. No "B's" or "V's" at the end. Drhaggis 01:50, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I say "skee-in Doo", like Drhaggis, but I usually close my lips at the end of "Doo", as if I were going to pronouce a "B" but then change my mind. This cuts off the "oo" sound and keeps it from turning into "skee-in Doooo". JHCC 18:00, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Englishman's blood

Someone told me he had been told in Scotland that there's an tradition about the Sgian Dubh saying if you once take it out of the stocking you're only allowed to put it back if there's blood of an Englishman on it. Is that true? I know it cannot be practic<ed, but is something like that told in Scotland?--Hun2 11:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

This is a standard macho myth associated with many kinds of knives. I've heard variations of this story about the Sgian Dubh, but no such tradition exists that I can verify. -Dr Haggis - Talk 23:14, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

When I take mine out, it's usually to trench the gushing entrails of a haggis at the end of January. The story of the blood is also said about the swords of the British Burmese regiments. Commonplace motif. --Doric Loon 02:48, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

To be honest that is not the job for a sgian-dubh; but rather that of a DIRK. Think of it as a sgian-dubh on steroids. Bagpipehero (talk) 22:57, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Thinking practically given that scotland was at war with England comparitively rarely (despite popular perception) and the Sgian Dubh was worn constantly it would be rather rare to put one back in your sock. 82.41.31.24 (talk) 15:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to scots

I'm a catalan interested in your culture and knives, owner of a black knife bought my last visit to Scotland (second hand in a market). I'm going to use this info to enlighten a friend, half scottish, about his origins. Thanks for your info about Sgian Dubh!

Capitalisation

Why is Dubh capitalised in this article? --Doric Loon 12:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

It may not be a proper name, but it is commonly capitalized. LHOON 14:42, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Is that actually the case? I'm sure it is sometimes capitalized, but I have mostly seen it uncapitalized, as are most of the occurrences of the word in this article. Lesgles (talk) 00:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Utility, ceremonial or weapon?

From the article: "is a ceremonial dagger" ... "was originally a utility item" ... "any concealed weapons would be revealed". These statements seem to be contradictory, or at least amiguous. The overall tone of the article seems to suggest it's a utility item, but the opening sentence confuses that. Suggest clarification, and the removal of the word "ceremonial" if appropriate. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 13:21, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Possible alternative origin

I remeber when I was younger being told that the Sgian Dubh was called the black knife because after a battle fatally wounded soldiers would have their throats cut with them as a mercy killing, rather then having them die slowly and painfully on the battlefield. Hence the name the black knife. I was told this when I was in Junior school by a group of historical re-enactors of some sort who were telling us about traditional highland battle equipment and dress at the time of the Jacobite rebelion.

Is this true and if so does anyone know a more reliable source citing it. It seems credible to me but may just be a urban myth grown up in recent times as an explanation. 82.41.31.24 (talk) 15:05, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but this is not true, a sgian dubh was knife first used as a hidden weapon when scots were banned the holding of weapons, it would be hidden in the arm pit, when in the house of a host you would put your sgian dubh in your sock to show you had no hidden intentions of harming them. When this became a tradition and the lords starting wearing them in the sock it the lords would have them in very high quality, a black wood, also known as the dress sgin dubh, after the lords began to wear them in the black wood it became fashion and so a name was thought for them "sgian dubh". Hope this has helped, they were used for mecy killings i think but this is not where the name came from, my eason has great factual basing and you can tell this when you look at a dress sgian dubh, it is black so makes sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.42.157.101 (talk) 21:56, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

"Dagger"??

Why is the sgian dubh referred to as a "dagger" throughout the article? Sgian simply means knife. Biodag would be a better gaelic term for dagger, and is the word used to refer to the Scottish dirk. The sgian dubh doesn't fit the description of a dagger. I think the article would be better if references to daggers were replaced with references to knives.--Mathandubh (talk) 11:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Quite right, a knife is a single bladed article, whereas a knife has a double edged blade. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.42.157.101 (talk) 21:35, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

As there seems to be no disagreement (and as the use of "knife" here is more consistent with the relevant WP articles and American Heritage 4 entries), I'll make the change. Elmo iscariot (talk) 14:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The Painting

The author mentions that in the Raeburn painting you can see the sgian dhu on the gentlemans belt. This is a dirk and not a small knife. A dirk consists of a large knife held in a scabard with both a smaller knife and a fork. A sgian dhu is a small single blade worn in the sock and not on the belt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.147.20 (talk) 16:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Look at his sock then - there is clearly a set of two knives there, somewhat similar to what that in the former NMAS, though whether either can be described as a Sgian Dubh is another matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.195.244.20 (talk) 09:24, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Origins

Unsigned edit from page

Before you read this, i would like to correct the previous author. The sgian dubh, was the highlanders utility knife, if you were a fisherman the 'top' of the knife would have something to scale fish, likewise hunters would have omething to skin game. Finavon (talk) 22:08, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Page name

May I propose moving the page to Sgian-dubh? The un-hyphenated spelling is wrong on several levels and the hyphenated version is equally common in English, checking through various dictionaries. Sgian dubh is "wrong" because according to the rules of Gaelic orthography, that demands two main stresses, which the word doesn't have, it's a fused compound with a single stress on -dubh; without the hyphen it's just malformed Gaelic for "any black knife" but not a skean-dhu. Akerbeltz (talk) 20:11, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Australia

I doubt that in "Australia it is illegal to carry a blade of any size on or about the person without a cause of which must also be on the person". Firstly the carrying of a blade is not illegal, secondly "without a cause of which must also be on the person" is meaningless gibberish.Royalcourtier (talk) 19:47, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

True. I've deleted that. Royalcourtier, you should not be shy about removing nonsense if you find it. If there is some truth behind this statement, somebody who knows about it will have to reformulate it in comprehensible English and provide a reference. --Doric Loon (talk) 22:56, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Issues with "Construction" section.

Being a Brit, this paragraph;

Since the modern sgian-dubh is worn mainly as a ceremonial item of dress and is usually not employed for cutting food or self-defence, blades are often of a simple (but not unglamorous) construction. These are typically made from stainless steel. The hilts used on many modern sgian-dubhs are made of plastic that has been molded to resemble carved wood and fitted with cast metal mounts and synthetic decorative stones. Some are not even knives at all, but a plastic handle and sheath cast as one piece.

strikes me as incredibly incorrect. This seems like a, dare I say it, American POV. Scotsmen who make the effort tend to MAKE THE EFFORT in my experience, and properly made sgians are readily available in Scotland.

Considering these bold claims are also unsourced, I move they be removed.

Or at least, I will reword it to something more nuanced; "There are cheaper ones available, such as x, y, z, etc."

78.149.209.252 (talk) 13:23, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, go ahead. --Doric Loon (talk) 21:04, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Legality section: "CAD 221"

In the "Legality" section, the term "CAD 221 ticket" links only to the Canadian dollar (CAD), which I think is not intended ! Please would someone knowledgeable correct this ? Darkman101 (talk) 04:25, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

If you read the story, that's exactly what it means, he was fined CA$221. Which is a bizarre number but he ho ;) Akerbeltz (talk) 10:16, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

With the taxes and service charges, that’s exactly what it was. ;) Bagpipehero (talk) 22:41, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Hidden?

Can anybody find a source for the claim that the original meaning was "hidden knife" rather than "black knife"? While that does make some kind of sense, these knives today are indeed black and very much not hidden, so a source is necessary. My main concern is that looking in the dictionaries, I find "hidden" as a secondary meaning of dubh only when it is prefixed to another noun; in Faclair Beag, this meaning is given for dubh-, but not for dubh. Doric Loon (talk) 13:58, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

There's clàr-dubh, hidden agenda and Gaelic is fairly flexible when it comes to placing certain adjectives before or after the noun. I'll have a shufty but in any case, the black handle thing is very much a modern thing, historic examples are hafted in a wide variety of colours and materials ranging from bone and ivory to wood and by no means are all of them stained black. It's conjecture but the black thing may well be an Anglophone interpretation of dubh as a colour, rather than the Gaelic semantics of the term. Akerbeltz (talk)

@Akerbeltz Aye, I was coming round to suspecting that myself, but it's still a wee bit wobbly. Some of the details (including details that I deleted from the article) sound so much like folklore that I'd like to see a reputable historian cited. Doric Loon (talk) 16:35, 2 January 2024 (UTC)