Talk:Yaoi

Further reading

Removed from the article, but possibly useful to expand the references:

Talk:Yaoi/Reference suggestions

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 03:38, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

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• Article history

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Artwork of a seme and uke

• ... that yaoi is a portmanteau of a phrase that translates to "no climax, no point, no meaning," referencing how early works in the genre focused on sex to the exclusion of plot and character development? Source: "Pornography or Therapy? Japanese Girls Creating the Yaoi Phenomenon"
  • ALT1:... that yaoi, a literary genre focused on male-male romance, originated in the 1970s as a subgenre of girls' comics? Source: "Loving the love of boys: Motives for consuming yaoi media"
  • ALT2:... that the two participants in a yaoi relationship (pictured) are referred to as seme ("top") and uke ("bottom"), terms derived from martial arts that were later appropriated as Japanese LGBT slang? Source: "Underage Sex and Romance in Japanese Homoerotic Manga and Anime"
  • ALT3:... that any man can be the subject of a yaoi manga, including characters from literature, video games, and even real people? Source: "Moe: Exploring Virtual Potential in Post-Millennial Japan"
  • ALT4:... that in China, fans of BL – a male-male romance genre also known as yaoi – use the hashtag "socialist brotherhood" to avoid detection from state censors when discussing the genre? Source: SCMP

• Reviewed: Studio 2054
• Comment: Plenty of material to mine for hooks on this one, as one can imagine.

Improved to Good Article status by Morgan695 (talk). Self-nominated at 22:35, 5 January 2021 (UTC).

• passed appropriately as a GA. The third hook has the wrong source, I assume you meant to use "Underage Sex and Romance in Japanese Homoerotic Manga and Anime" instead of "Boy's Love and Yaoi Revisited", which is used to cite something later in the paragraph. All the other hooks are fine. Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 20:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

• @Elliot321: Yes, that was an error on my part. I've corrected the source, if you wish to approve ALT2. Morgan695 (talk) 02:49, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

• approved. Honestly, I prefer that one — mainly because the image is cute. Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 05:23, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Informal RfC: Temperature check on "yaoi" vs "BL"

It's been about two-and-a-half years since our last move discussion on the topic of what this article should be named, and per my comments from about a year ago, common usage has continued to steadily drift towards "boys' love/BL" and away from "yaoi" to describe this genre of media. I believe there is a strong case to be made to rename this article, but I'm interested in soliciting opinions from other editors on the subject before doing something as formal as an RfC or a Requested move. If you have opinions about this matter one way or the other, please leave them below. Morgan695 (talk) 22:15, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Could we do a chart like what was done here, with a chart showing the popularity of usage of terms (i.e. "yaoi", "boys' love", and "bl")? That would be helpful in making my decision (and likely that of others) when it comes to renaming the page. Historyday01 (talk) 22:23, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

See below; I've struck the ones that picked up too many false positives to be reliable indicators. (There are false positives on Boys love + "drama", but I didn't strike it because there are nevertheless a very large number of scholarly articles written about BL television dramas.) As has been brought up in move discussions before, "boys' love" and "BL" as isolated terms are inevitably going to pick up false positives; the latter because of how generic it is, and the former because of its common use in other phrases (e.g. "the boys love ice cream"). Qualification is necessary to get an idea of how these terms are being used in the specific context of anime/manga/television dramas. Morgan695 (talk) 23:01, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Search term	Google web (English only)	Google Scholar	Google books (English only)
Exact phrase
"Yaoi"	180,000,000	12,400	78,000
"Boys love"	23,200,000	6,600	54,500
"Boys' love"	20,400,000	6,600	69,800
"BL"	525,000,000	5,640,000	39,500,000
Qualified phrase
Yaoi + "manga"	98,200,000	2,530	40,400
Yaoi + "anime"	199,000,000	2,090	3,300
Yaoi + "drama"	31,900,000	1,240	1,880
Boys love + "manga"	154,000,000	21,300	30,100
Boys love + "anime"	242,000,000	23,000	14,800
Boys love + "drama"	158,000,000	944,000	588,000
Boys' love + "manga"	116,000,000	21,300	30,900
Boys' love + "anime"	249,000,000	23,000	14,600
Boys' love + "drama"	151,000,000	926,000	62,000
BL + "manga"	117,000,000	27,000	66,300
BL + "anime"	247,000,000	20,200	36,400
BL + "drama"	55,400,000	105,000	358,000

The number of results for Boys' love drops significantly if you explicitly exclude Yaoi from the search (89,500,000 for manga), which implies the two terms are often used together small jars tc 22:06, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Strange, my Google result is returning 146M for Boys' love + "manga" and 141M for Boys' love + "manga" -"yaoi". Either way, from anecdotal observation there are are many sources that use the terms together (SuBLime, Viz Media's BL imprint, refers to itself as a "publisher of yaoi/boys’ love manga") which I think does reflect how common usage is drifting.

Relatedly, I sometimes do wonder how much the fact that this article is still called "Yaoi" is responsible for this trend of sources splitting the difference in this way; it is, after all, the first link that comes up in a simple search for both "yaoi" and "boys' love". Morgan695 (talk) 00:52, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

As I wrote in the last discussion, Boys' Love is the predominant name for the genre in Japan (with "yaoi" largely referring to aniparo/nijisōsaku (derivative) works—source), and this use has been reflected in the predominant use of "BL" instead of "yaoi" in English scholarship, something that has been happening for the past 5-10 years. In addition to the Mechademia issue I brought up last discussion, recent work from luminary scholars like James Welker continues to use "BL", not "yaoi". In fandom, as well, there's been a shift as people learn more of the correct terminology, and especially with the rise of international BL in other Asian countries (you might describe danmei as "Chinese BL," but not "Chinese yaoi", but the smoking gun here would probably be the rising tide of Thai BL, which is not called "Thai yaoi" by any stretch of the imagination). In any case, yes, this article is overdue for a name change. Sandtalon (talk) 23:35, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree. And I would support a change to "Boys' Love", while keeping "Yaoi" as a redirect. Historyday01 (talk) 19:37, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I participated in the last RfC and I'm all for retitling the article as "Boys' love" or "Boys love." lullabying (talk) 02:34, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Same here. The beginning of the article can just be changed (with the appropriate Japanese words for each term, as it is in the current version) to say something like "Boys' love, also known as yaoi, boys love, and its abbreviation BL, is a genre of fictional media originating in Japan that features homoerotic relationships between male characters." Historyday01 (talk) 22:13, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Live action television and film

@Khdamayo: First of all, thank you for your efforts to expand this section, and please do not take my reduction of your contributions as attempting to discourage you from contributing further. That said, I think we need to be careful that this section is not conflating "media that depicts male same-sex couples or homosexuality generally" with yaoi/BL, as these are not precisely the same thing. Also, as this article about yaoi/BL as a concept generally, we have to ensure it does not give WP:UNDUE weight to certain topics, which means it should only address BL television dramas that are specifically notable – dramas that are the first BL drama a country has produced, dramas that have achieved a high bar of critical or commercial success, etc. – and that it isn't just a laundry list of every BL drama a country has produced.

If you intend to expand these sections further, I think it would be appropriate to start breaking them out into their own articles, e.g. BL in Thailand, BL in China, etc. Morgan695 (talk) 04:31, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Questioning of GA-Review

I would like to inform you that I question the GA review, but I dont want to change the GA status, i only want to inform, because during the translation and thereby also the peer reviewing, I found at least 36 places where the text did not match the source. A colleague also noticed unreliable sources, blogs. Here you can see what I have deleted. Link to Document The Other Karma (talk) 14:46, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

I can't read German so I'm discerning this through Google Translate, but it seems like a lot of these notes are just indicating that the source could not be accessed (presumably because they're offline), which seems like a very different charge than saying the "text did not match the source". Morgan695 (talk) 16:10, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, some things are deleted, because i coulndnt check them, an example, what did not match the source, is "the market expanded rapidly before contracting in 2008 as a result of the global financial crisis of 2007–2008, but continued to grow slowly in the following years." in the middle of 2000-Present: Globalisation of Yaoi and BL.

And a question, how about adding Teens Love in "Subgenres and related genres"?

Here is an List of everything, in English:

In the face of this legal and cultural shift, artists who depicted male homosexuality in their work typically did so through subtext. (Sourced meh)

in homosocial or homoerotic contexts, who are defined by their "ambivalent passivity, fragility, ephemerality, and softness." (couldnt find that)

Though these works were nominally aimed at an audience of adolescent girls and young women, they also attracted adult gay and lesbian readers (couldnt find that)

amateur works that were influenced by shōnen-ai and gay manga (couldnt find that)

In reaction to the success of shōnen-ai and early yaoi, publishers sought to exploit the market by creating magazines devoted to the genre. Young female illustrators cemented themselves in the manga industry by publishing yaoi works, with this genre later becoming "a transnational subculture. (Not realy sourced)

and also published articles on homosexuality, literary fiction, illustrations, and amateur yaoi works (couldnt find that)

the market expanded rapidly before contracting in 2008 as a result of the global financial crisis of 2007–2008, but continued to grow slowly in the following years (couldnt find that)

by Park Hee-jung and Crush on You (2006) by Lee Kyung-ha (couldnt find that)

Thai Series Y explicitly adapts the content of Japanese BL to the Thai local context and in recent years has become increasingly popular with fans around the world who often view Thai BL as separate to its Japanese antecedents (couldnt find that)

and were later appropriated as Japanese LGBT slang (couldnt find that)

Zanghellini notes that illustrations of anal sex almost always position the characters to face each other rather than "doggy style", and that the uke rarely fellates the seme, but instead receives the sexual and romantic attentions of the seme (afaik couldnt find that)

The possibility of switching roles is often a source of playful teasing and sexual excitement for the characters (couldnt find that)

In other instances, the uke is portrayed as the aggressor in the relationship; in these instances, the roles are sometimes referred to as osoi uke (襲い受け, "attacking uke") and hetare seme (ヘタレ攻め, "wimpy seme") (couldnt find that)

Since the late 2000s, women have appeared more frequently in yaoi works as supporting characters. (couldnt find that)

beginning in the mid-2000s the genre began to depict gay identity with greater sensitivity and nuance, with series such as Brilliant Blue featuring stories of coming out and the characters' gradual acceptance within the wider community (couldnt find that)

focused on the suffering of the protagonists (couldnt find that)

The early 2000s saw a degree of overlap between yaoi and gay manga in BDSM-themed publications: the yaoi BDSM anthology magazine Zettai Reido (絶対零度) had several male contributors (couldnt find that)

the conflation of shotacon in its contemporary usage with yaoi is thus not universally accepted, as the genre constitutes material that marketed to both male and female audiences (Not claimed as that)

in the 2010s (couldnt find that)

Many publishing companies review yaoi dōjinshi to recruit talented amateurs; this practice has led to careers in mainstream manga for Youka Nitta, Shungiku Nakamura, and others (couldnt find that)

Marketing was significant in the transnational travel of yaoi from Japan to the United States, and led to yaoi to attract a following of LGBT fans in the United States. The 1994 original video animation adaptation of Kizuna: Bonds of Love was distributed by Ariztical Entertainment, which specializes in LGBT cinema and marketed the title as "the first gay male anime to be released on DVD in the US." The film was reviewed in the American LGBT magazine The Advocate, which compared the film to gay art house cinema. (couldnt find that)

A large portion of Western fans choose to pirate yaoi material because they are unable or unwilling to obtain it through sanctioned methods. Scanlations and other fan translation efforts of both commercially published Japanese works and amateur dojinshi are common (not sufficiently documented)

but is also condemned as a means of avoiding acknowledgement of homophobia (couldnt find that) The Other Karma (talk) 16:59, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

To reply to one of the offhand comments you made first for now: Teens' Love is not really related to BL despite the name (except, I guess, being female-targeted); Teens' Love is a category of heterosexual porn/erotic manga aimed at women. Sandtalon (talk) 18:56, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Is that, that women do use it, not a reason that it should be named, Omegaverse isnt rly different? With Bara/Sota, the only reason to name it is that they also have homosexual themes? The Other Karma (talk) 19:12, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

...except that Omegaverse is an existing subgenre of BL and yaoi (yes, it emerged from Western slash fanfiction, but it is now also a subgenre of BL in its own right). In some cases, shota is also a subgenre of BL; there is genre overlap. I'm actually a bit ambivalent about the inclusion of geikomi (and it should be called geikomi or gei manga; "bara" is a pejorative), but I can see why it's in that section: as a way to clarify the distinction between (primarily female-targeted) BL and (primarily male-targeted) geikomi but also highlight hybridity and crossover between the two. There are no such reasons for TL to be included there: it is not a subgenre of BL, there is no category overlap with BL, and there is not much of a need to differentiate the genres in that section (maybe the name? but that's a weak reason, imo). Everything mentioned in that section is substantially relevant to BL, but Teens' Love is not. Sandtalon (talk) 10:54, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I understand, interessting. The Other Karma (talk) 11:48, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Some artists who draw BL also do teens' love. However, the only "similarity" that those two have is that they have an audience overlap but the genres are not really related. lullabying (talk) 02:32, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

On the separation of BL (Anime vs Live Action) (Japanese vs Rest of Asia)

I feel BL has grown immensely in the past decade and feel it has begun to deeply separate from its origins in Japanese Manga/Anime. While I think it's important to acknowledge these origins it's clear BL is quickly becoming less anime and less Japanese and I feel a separate article on BL especially focusing on Live Action BL would be useful since this article barely covers it. I would love to hear other's thoughts or even look into a voting poll.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 20:35, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, if there is enough reliable sources to justify a division, then I'd say to go for it. I think a voting poll would be a good idea. @User:Morgan695, considering your contribution above on this talk page, perhaps you would be interested in contributing here.Historyday01 (talk) 22:14, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

I think there's likely enough material to create Boys' love on televison (or something similarly named), though it would be a good idea to start an article in the draftspace first. Naming that article might get thorny, especially if this master article is still listed as "Yaoi"; perhaps now is the time to bite the bullet with a formal move request for this article, since there was no major objection to the informal discussion from several months ago? Morgan695 (talk) 22:33, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Im so sorry i had no idea. You'd did this first. I wish to formally acknowledge that. But yeah, I think a separate article covering live action would do wonders I suggest the titles "Boy's Love Drama" or "Live Action Boy's Love"-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 00:34, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

For the record though I actually think Yaoi or Shonen Ai should still exist and renaming it to Boy's Love might hamper our ability to create a more intercontinental (Asia) and live action article on BL. Rainbowofpeace (talk) 01:23, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

I think it's appropriate to separate the two into two articles. BL is used in South Korea, while yaoi is used mostly for just Japanese media, along with Shonen-ai. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 21:19, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

BL is really used all over Asia especially China, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Thailand and the Philippines. However Yaoi or Shonen-Ai usually only refers to anime and manga. I really want a new article that focuses mostly (if not exclusively) on live action and while there will definitely be mention of Japanese live action BL. I think its clear that other countries will be just as if not more prominent including South Korea like you mentioned but also Thailand and Taiwan. I would definitely look forward to your what I'm sure will be incredibly insightful contributions in the new articles section on South Korea.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 15:04, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't know if live-action BL deserves a page, but I'm for spinning off BL content from this page into its own, and adding info from other countries to it. I will say that live-action BL should definitely be a component of the page, but just not its own. You could go with "Boy's Love in (country)" to expand on each country. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 15:11, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Essentially, it would be this:

• Boy's love
  • Boy's love in (country)

ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 15:13, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

I would support splitting the "Live action television and film" section into "Boys' love in [X]" articles that fork from this article, but I don't see the rationale for splitting this article into "Boys' love" and "Yaoi", and would likely oppose such a move. Morgan695 (talk) 16:02, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

@Morgan695: It would mean that the "Boy's love" article can focus on BL from other countries, while the "Yaoi" would only be about Japanese BL, along with Shonen-ai. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 16:06, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Why would an article titled "Boys' love" exclude Japan, the country that the the term originates from and which actively uses the term to designate a genre of media? And why would an article titled "Yaoi" focus exclusively on media from Japan, where "yaoi" as a term is largely depreciated? This seems like a wholly arbitrary distinction. Morgan695 (talk) 16:25, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

It wouldn't exclude it, it would be a subsection that has a link to the "Yaoi" page, along with "Shonen-ai". It would have general info about BL across the world, but also have links to other pages, like the aforementioned pages. The BL page would have an etymology section, describing how it originated. It would be like this:

• Etymology
• In other countries
  • BL in (county)
  • BL in Japan

(use "Main" temp. for Yaoi and Shonen-ai)

ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 16:31, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

I still think it can get pretty confusing unless you actually have a draft so you can show what you mean. Even BL published abroad is now being published in Japan under the same label (some even going as far as to change the characters' names and backgrounds so that they're Japanese). lullabying (talk) 09:21, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. A draft of the page would be nice to see. Historyday01 (talk) 15:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC)